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waitedwaytoolong

I also think the one who cheated feels better about things in a successful reconciliation. Though they have guilt over what they did, they can relish the fact they committed the most heinous thing you can do in a marriage, and their spouse loved them so much they were able to forgive. The betrayed has to live with the fact that their spouse, at least at the time of the affair, really didn’t love them. A hard pill to swallow.

Interesting point. The betrayed taking back the cheater is the ultimate validation - as you've said, they've done the most awful thing that they can do and the betrayed still loves them. Meanwhile the betrayed has to live with the fact that their partner will abuse them and harm them and there's no protection against that.

That's a tough pill, you're right.

Let me ask you this, why do you want to save this marriage?

My impression is that you are in a pretty abusive and codependent relationship. So, in order to get this thing off the ground, there is a lot to acknowledge on both sides of the fence here.

Part of deciding to reconcile is realizing history repeats itself. So, on your side you must work to fix the things within you that helped you feel comfortable with your decision to cheat. And, he also needs to figure himself out. Not all BS's have to do that part, but from what I can tell he has some tendencies that are also needing to be dealt with and brought under control.

As far as can it be better? I do believe it can be better. I was blindsided by my husbands affair, but I can see how the R was so one-sided now that he is addressing some of his healing.

BUT, do you know what I have full control over moving forward? That I will be better. That I am better. I have learned to communicate on a level I didn't realize existed, and to not look at everything as conflict. If H no longer wants to be in this marriage, I do believe I will make a good partner for myself as well as anyone I might choose to have in my life later.

So, my advice is focus on your lane. Don't worry about convincing him about an outcome that may or may not be feasible with the combination of the two of you. Let go of that. I am not saying don't try and help your husband or try and make amends if this marriage is what you want and you deem it worth saving. All I am saying is the only thing you can control is yourself. Be better for you and the rest will fall into place. I promise. Know that it's a full time job almost, and it takes so much more time than you could even imagine.

I thought I had my shit pretty together before my affair. I am a successful business woman, I had a good marriage, awesome kids, a home and things I loved. I realize that none of that works if I do not work.

So my advice is let go of the outcome and don't worry about if it will work or not work. Just do the work on yourself and do your best. It's hard, you will fail, but keep going.

It occurs to me that in some sense, like all of us do, the original OP's question is looking for some sort of firm answer about "work" or "fail."

I think reconciliation, forgiveness, healing, a "better" marriage ... all of these things are useful concepts as far as they go.

But they are really just very vague notions when we get down to it.

Life is not linear. It is weird. Truth (reality, life) really is stranger than fiction. To me, looking for a "work"/"fail" binary is just not going to cut it as reasonably good set of descriptors after infidelity.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:06 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

Patty to me it sounds like your H is testing you to see if you want for the right reasons. When he makes things hard and you ask him about a D . . .test failed. It shows him that you are only going to do the work if it gets you what you want. Obviously you had an A so he believes you would leave if given the opportunity.

Having your spouse have an feels like the biggest rejection around. It feels like our betrayed spouse no longer loves us or wants to be with us. We are the "back up" option. It is common to assume that our wayward partners will keep looking to "upgrade, " once we've been lulled into complacency. All the regret, remorse, tears are just another manipulation to get the WS what they really want which is something better than the betrayed spouse.

He is showing you how his A feels to him. He is feeling rejection and honestly it is imperative that you don't give any indication that D might be an option.

Of course if you want a D then quit wasting both of your precious years left. Life is too short to be in a M that takes away more than it gives you.

I think spending more time in IC is important for you to make sure what you really want. Once you figure that out then you work towards whatever gets you closer to whatever it is that you do want. Sometimes people have an as a means to end the M because they don't want to be the one that uses the D word. If after discovery the BS divorces the WS then it happens, but without the ugly discussions.

Please keep up with IC to figure out what you really want. Keep all options open and make sure you feel good about which way you want to go. I think the same would be good for your BH.

He won't tell you this, but he is as scared as you are. Probably more. Further he is likely beating himself up because he feels your A was due to him not being....or him being... Yoiu get the idea.

One last thing. Your words have to match your actions. If you want to talk then ask him to talk. If you want space tell him that. Just keep checking in and try to not be defensive or begin talking about yourself. If you want the M your BH is the one needing triage right now. He is hurt in ways you can't imagine.

This is marathon not a sprint. Consistent, words an actions matching along with regular IC will get you there over time. This takes time and patience is very much needed.

Thank you to everyone and I will definitely use these tools. One day at a time

In answer to your question, every situation is different. I agreed to continue with my marriage, but I felt dead inside. My ex-WW, after a few months of acting somewhat contrite, reverted to her old narcissistic ways. She continued the flirting and other behavior that made her a very unsafe partner. Her first affair wore me out and I just ignored the behavior until I finally caught her again in another affair. If she was a decent partner who tried to make the marriage work, there is no doubt in my mind that the marriage would have lasted. But, to be honest, my feelings for her would never have returned to anywhere close to the level prior to the first affair. I would not have been happy. Thank god we divorced. I agreed to stay through counseling after her first affair. Her second affair was liberating in that I fulfilled my promise and could leave with a clear conscience. I do believe that in most cases where a marriage does last, the BS never feels the same about the WS or the marriage. The marriage may be stronger, but the BS in most cases cannot trust or love the WS like before. The bottom line is that the WS threw the BS and marriage under the bus. They were devalued. That is a hard pill to swallow moving forward. There are too many potential partners out there that would never do such a thing. It's a question of finding them.

IMO, the BS needs to deeply understanding why the WS cheated, and often, the WS cheated because of a lack of proper self love. A person loves another only as well as they love them self.

I think this is a really ridiculous cliche that is false in most cases. I think it gets perpetuated so often because its an easy excuse for WS to latch on to that makes them less of an asshole while providing a measure of comfort to the BS.

I used to think that my WS had low self-esteem but in retrospect, I am confident ex had no problem with self love... he was his favorite person in universe. He wasn't needy; he was entitled. He thought he deserved a marriage that fulfilled all his needs, plus some extra on the side.

For once, I would love to see a cheater who was actually honest about that.

IMO, the BS needs to deeply understanding why the WS cheated....

I'm not sure that's possible. I believe I know what went on in my W when she started and carried on her A, but I can't for the life of me see myself making her choices. I just don't see how she did it. I can imagine sitches in which I'd choose to cheat - jut not sitch she was in.

IOW, I doubt that BSes can deeply understand why the WS cheated.

Besides, understanding a dysfunction is much different from changing dysfunctional behavior. New, functional behavior is what makes R successful.

OTOH, I don't think low self-esteem is a 'ridiculous cliche.' I think its an explanation in many - maybe 'many', maybe even 'all' - cases. It's not an excuse, ever. Once again, in R it's the new behavior that matters.

A WS who uses low self-esteem as an excuse for not changing is not a good candidate for R. A WS who works to build new habits that the BS likes may be, in fact, a good candidate for R.

I think there’s too much emphasis (in American culture at least) on low self-esteem as the root cause of all maladaptive behavior. I get that there’s a distinction between and explanation and an excuse, but in practice, there’s no difference.

I am confident [my] ex had no problem with self love... he was his favorite person in [the] universe.

Self-love, and being in love with yourself, are two very different things in my mind. What it sounds like you are describing is a narcissist, which is the sort of the polar opposite of self-love.

When we discuss self-love, what we are talking about is self-respect, integrity, healthy boundaries, humility, confidence, morals...

"Self love" means that you want to be the very best person you can be, despite your human failings, and that you focus on being someone that you can respect, and that others can respect. You can sleep at night, knowing you've done all you can, every day, to be a decent person to yourself, others and the world around you. Self-love lacks selfishness and entitlement, because the need to feel validated is fulfilled from within ourselves, not from others.

Self-love is NOT thinking you are hotter, that you are smarter, that you are better at everything and better than everyone else. It does not mean you want to fuck yourself when you look in the mirror. It is not feeling entitled or more-special or more-deserving or better than others. Feeling any of these things is the exact opposite of self-love. A person with self-love is incapable of feeling "more than" others because the need to feel that way is non-existent, they literally have no reason to feel that way. In the same way that a person who just stuffed themselves with food won't feel hungry, a person who stuffs themselves with self-respect and self-value will never need to try and get those things from others by feeling entitled and special.

A person who:

* Respects themselves and others

* Has healthy boundaries and enforces themselves

* Has integrity and self-respect

* Understands their own needs

* Lacks selfishness and entitlement

is, in my opinion, simply incapable of having an affair. Any one, let alone all, of the qualities listed above, would prevent that person from disrespecting themselves or another person in such a way.

Just as an aside, narcissistic behavior often stems from self-hate, or maybe more accurately, self-desperation and neediness. Most narcs are created from one of two situations. Either they are told they are never good enough no matter what they do, or they are told everything they do is perfect. The ones who are told they aren't good enough are constantly looking for the praise they never received, and so they see themselves as better than everyone and everything so that others will tell them how wonderful they are. They are incapable of feeling good about themselves, and so they create a persona that they feel everyone should love and praise.

Those who were told they are amazing "no matter what" are handed a feeling of entitlement that they didn't work for or deserve. Strangely enough, they too also are incapable of "truly" feeling good about themselves, because they never actually learned how to achieve something by working for it, so any praise they get feels hollow to them, yet at the same time, they require it since they lack the tools to earn the feelings of worth for themselves. In other words, even those "who are in love with themselves" are often the ones that hate themselves the most.

(Sorry for the T/J)

DaddyDom,

You and I are totally aligned, and with you being a former WS and me being a BS, I think this shows how much people can learn and change.

I sought my wife’s “whys” to confirm she had changed at-her-core, to know her whys were no longer applicable, to trust her. Trust is paramount for me and I needed to know her path forward would be natural, intrinsic, and that she couldn’t cheat again. Until this, I was only sticking around to keep our family together, especially after the limerence waned. I always intended to reassess my need to exit after the kids flew the coup, but when this time came, I was confident in staying, because by then I knew she changed inside at her core.

Without trust we would have never made it; controlling her would have been too unhealthy for me, and her controlling herself would have been too unhealthy for her.

People are at their best when their outside is aligned with their inside. We both needed to change to reach this point and reconcile successfully.

A word of caution to Patty and other WSs: Unless your BS is behaving terribly, and I mean terribly, such as being abusive, I recommend that you refrain from suggesting to your BS that he/she needs to change, understand your whys, forgive, etc. You gave up this right to provide this guidance when you cheated. Your suggestions, although correct IMO, will only be received as blame shifting. You need work on you and let your BS follow if they choose.

[This message edited by still-living at 8:44 PM, May 5th (Wednesday)]

You've gotten a ton of feedback here. And all of it is true. How can that be when you've heard everything from "Strong, no way in ______!" to "Oh yeah, of COURSE it can!". Because as many said, the only real answer to your question is it depends.

If you're looking for what you had but even better, I don't see that as likely at all. If you're willing to work for something completely different that can be a much stronger relationship? Well, that's where our marriage has moved to. It took years of really hard work, and I had to do a lot of really ugly self reflection. Can it be done? Yes. Can it for you? No way to know for sure. Sometimes our actions are simply deal breakers that cannot be recovered from. But there's a more important question.

Do you want to be a better person now than you were before?

Because regardless of the outcome of your relationship, you're gonna have to do that tough work anyway. All you can do is to dig deep, identify and fix what is broken within you, and show through actions who you are. Relationships will go different ways. But focusing on "can this be saved" is meaningless. Can you be saved is where all the focus needs to be.

I think there’s too much emphasis (in American culture at least) on low self-esteem as the root cause of all maladaptive behavior. I get that there’s a distinction between and explanation and an excuse, but in practice, there’s no difference.

I will have to respectfully disagree. When making big changes in your life, it can be overwhelming trying to find a place to start. I think many WS’s start with lack of self esteem and/or lack of self love. It is the spring board to diving deeper. In order to make true change you have to go much deeper than the surface. It is a process that takes time, dedication, and a level of vulnerability that you didn’t know existed.

The why’s are never as simple as one reason such as low self esteem or because I wanted to. The why’s are complicated and multi-faceted. There is a lot of unraveling that has to happen and it can (and should) take years to accomplish if done well.

Excuses are easy to throw around. There is no accountability for them. If you really want an explanation or a why, well that takes a heroic amount of work. So in practice, there is a vast difference between the two.

Many people BS and WS alike have self esteem issues. What is the root cause of that? That is where the work begins and excuses end.

There's no past tense for the word Baby either but I'm pretty sure that although you were one once, you're not one now.

-ForgettableDad

Your right. But you start off as a baby, then move on to becoming an adult. And once you are an adult, you can never go back to being an adolescent, toddler, or baby. Once you cross some lines, there is no turning back.

Another way to look at it is that in some areas, things are simply black or white; there is no grey area at all. For example, you are either pregnant or you are not pregnant. There is no “somewhat pregnant”. So too with fidelity. You are either faithful or unfaithful. This may be an unpopular opinion in this forum, but in my opinion, there is no “somewhat faithful”.

I wish you and your poor husband nothing but the best. Good luck

For example, you are either pregnant or you are not pregnant. There is no “somewhat pregnant”

We have had friends that experienced stillbirth after carrying the unliving fetus to full term... life isn't black and white only, it's shades of grey.

I've been a baby. I'm not one now.

I've been unfaithful. I'm not now.

We have tenses for a reason. Life is complicated and so are we.

The past shapes us but it doesn't define us.