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The solution sounds like semantically, but in our rebuild relationship, we don’t ever compromise.

I’ve heard you say this before, and it fits perfectly in this thread. I admit that I don’t understand what you are saying well enough to think I could practice it. Can you walk thru an example or two of what your new mode of operation is vs how it would have gone before? I feel like there is something important here that I don’t want to miss out on.

I’ve heard you say this before, and it fits perfectly in this thread. I admit that I don’t understand what you are saying well enough to think I could practice it. Can you walk thru an example or two of what your new mode of operation is vs how it would have gone before? I feel like there is something important here that I don’t want to miss out on.

We didn’t intend to, but our marriage fell into a resentment spiral of unmet expectations, which turned us into, "What’s in this for me?"

Our previous solutions then became about whose turn it was to get what we wanted — a serious of bad compromises.

Without a complete pre-A replay, I recognized the distance caused by the "take what we can get" mentality.

The giving mindset during the rebuild is pretty simple.

We wake up everyday seeing how we can make each other’s day better, we anticipate needs or ask if we aren’t sure.

If I want to watch my baseball game, I know she is cool with it, because then I will pick a movie or event or thing she wants to do. We give each other our time, and no one feels bad or guilty for asking for anything.

Consideration and kindness lead to a lot of giving moments.

It was weird at first, it was opposite to how we approached everything before — trying to out-nice the other is very different. I thought it was an extension of R at first, but it became standard operating procedure.

We both still love solo time to read, or listen to music, visit friends, etc. So, we’re not attached at the hip, individual space was always important to us.

Communication is really, really good, and yet, we’re still human. Tricky moments now are when we’re both having a bad day. We recognize those days when neither of us has a lot to give, and allow for some room until whatever it is gets worked through.

Ultimately, it’s just more about how we can make life better for the other versus taking what we feel is owed to the other like the old days.

My BFF was all about the bad boys when she was young. She got tired of the drama and married the first "nice, dependable" guy who asked. She's a free spirit and he's an engineer. She knew they were a bad match from the start and almost didn't marry him, but thought she was on a path of destruction with her usual type and went ahead with it. Guess who cheated within the first three years? No, not her. Him. He didn't think that she was all that into him (he was right)

That's the other half of the coin. My WW used her college years to explore. When we met, she was in her senior year, and I was well into my career. Long story short I eventually learned I was the good, dependable guy she settled down with. Our sex life was very vanilla. As far as I was concerned, she didn't know what a BJ was. She couldn't be the wild child with me because she got all that crap out of her system with other guys before we met.

So my Relationship Wisdom would be to not do this. The good dependable guy/girl is willing and able to keep your dirty secrets and we won't think less of you for continued to explore further once you've finally settled down with him/her. We'd love it. But is devastating to learn you were fine being experimental, but wont be with us.

[This message edited by Twitchy at 1:54 PM, Thursday, September 12th]

I just want to echo what old wounds did is also very close to what works with us. We explore outside interests without the expectation the other needs to do it with us, we try and create win-win scenarios and we both try and brighten each others day as much a possible. It never feels like an imbalance of give and take.

There re scenarios one of us will pull up the slack- like when we lost his mother, some of my new job drama. There is still a recognition of times the other may just need a little extra grace or TLC but when this is your standard operating procedure in your marriage there is a lot to draw from the well without feeling taken advantage of or resentful.

Twitchy- not meaning to thread jack but that sounds very painful.

We'd love it. But is devastating to learn you were fine being experimental, but wont be with us.

I think often men think what we are willing to do sexually has to do with them. But what actually often happens is this is a woman’s misguided attempt to be a "good girl" because of the shame they feel over their sexuality.

In my affair, I didn’t do more things or anything like that, but, I did revert to a person I was when I was young. I acted in ways that were immature, irrational. There were elements in which I was revisiting trauma of sexual abuse.

This is not to excuse anything. This is just to tell you that these were your wife’s problems and would have been with whomever she married. It has nothing to do with who you are or aren’t. If you are still married and she has not addressed them, that’s not okay. You deserve a deep, loving, and passionate relationship. There are many women out there who appreciate and would love the shit out of a nice guy. If you ever felt like making your own post about this I think there would be a number of posters who would be able to share their experiences with this. Don’t let what she did to you dictate your worth. This was about her own feelings of worth.

End T/J

My counterintuitive af relationship advice:

1. Don't ever make a woman your whole world. Or even the center of your world. Too often we give up our joys, our passions, and even compromise on who we are for her sake. And what happens? Yeah that's right, she loses the spark with us. There ARE times when it may need to be 100/50--she is seriously sick or pregnant, but in general you just gotta keep doing you.

2. NEVER commit to a woman who will not do with you sexually, what she did with other men in the past. And if the sex is vanilla and it cannot be fixed then BAIL.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:27 PM, Thursday, September 12th]

I think often men think what we are willing to do sexually has to do with them. But what actually often happens is this is a woman’s misguided attempt to be a "good girl" because of the shame they feel over their sexuality.

Well, with this now being one of MY threads again, I feel the ability to cut loose

I hear what you are saying, wise friend. And you are missing the piece that cuts the heart of many a man, that our woman is just not passionate about us. They were about others, and they expressed that passionately and sexually. And we became the security blanket after the wild oats were sown. It's a nightmare. And in any given case, maybe it's one, maybe it's the other, maybe it's a mix. But I'm going to use the big stick of being OP here to carve out the space for this perspective to be heard. And you know I think the world of you all the same.

I just want to echo what old wounds did is also very close to what works with us. We explore outside interests without the expectation the other needs to do it with us, we try and create win-win scenarios and we both try and brighten each others day as much a possible. It never feels like an imbalance of give and take.

Thanks, I was going to ask others to see if they related to that. It's a beautiful vision of relationship, one I think I always assumed marriage would just trend toward with two well meaning partners. At this point I'm not sure if we ever had two well meaning partners in this marriage. Maybe we did at one time and trauma fucked it up. I don't know, but thank you to you both for laying out something to strive for.

I thought I understood and operated by these until I was actually tested in a way that shined a light on my blind spots (ie: these are delusions I recognize in the world, but not in the case of my wife/family). Come to find that none of them are true (for me), and yet I held on tightly to them with my identity as husband/father.

1. Stability in life is both beneficial and attainable

2. Well being is largely contextual (I can only be happy if my environment is the way I prefer)

3. I have to control things to be okay

4. The world is, fundamentally, unsafe

[This message edited by StillPossible at 3:28 PM, Friday, September 13th]

Thanks, I was going to ask others to see if they related to that. It's a beautiful vision of relationship, one I think I always assumed marriage would just trend toward with two well meaning partners. At this point I'm not sure if we ever had two well meaning partners in this marriage.

I made the exact same assumptions IH.

I thought marriage was supposed to be about the team, and giving.

However, I think in my M, we made many assumptions about how it was supposed to be versus how things were.

In reality, it seems like each of us hedged our bets. We always knew what the other partner wanted or needed, and it turned in to a series of trades, then bad trades and then compromises, which again, was all about taking from the other (what we felt the other OWED us regarding our needs).

Hiking’s take about making everyday a win-win captures the rebuilt vibe best.

My wife and I, as before know what each of us likes and needs, and the difference is, we both take initiative to make sure the other is taken care of. We know the moments when we need space or time together, visit our adult kids, etc.

I thought I understood and operated by these until I was actually tested in a way that shined a light on my blind spots (ie: these are delusions I recognize in the world, but not in the case of my wife/family). Come to find that none of them are true (for me), and yet I held on tightly to them with my identity as husband/father.

1. Stability in life is both beneficial and attainable

2. Well being is largely contextual (I can only be happy if my environment is the way I prefer)

3. I have to control things to be okay

4. The world is, fundamentally, unsafe

Would you be willing to rephrase this a little. I feel a little confused, like I’m not quite sure where the double negatives are. Maybe I’ll ask that you clearly state what you believe to be true now in these categories. Like, are you saying that you currently believe the world is fundamentally unsafe?

Would you be willing to rephrase this a little. I feel a little confused, like I’m not quite sure where the double negatives are. Maybe I’ll ask that you clearly state what you believe to be true now in these categories. Like, are you saying that you currently believe the world is fundamentally unsafe?

Sorry about the confusion. All of these are counter-intuitively incorrect (in my experience). I used to have this belief about life in general, but gave my relationship a free pass. So, before the affair, I thought my relationship was stable (and that stability was good for my spouse and I), I thought my well being was only positive if my relationship was positive, I thought I had to feel in control of how things were going in order to feel safe, and I thought our relationship was a safe harbor in a chaotic world. In light of the affair, I realize that I'm not that special--and neither is my relationship. The counter-intuitive wisdom is that none of these assumptions are true (even though I believe many people take them as truths about how life, fundamentally, is).

Here would be a rephrase of the delusions to transform them into positive beliefs:

1. Life is always changing, to expect stability is to invite disappointment and suffering

2. My reaction to the circumstances in my life is what bring joy or sorry, not the circumstances themselves.

3. Meet each moment as it is and trust in the mystery, wilderness, and openness of it all

4. The world is, fundamentally, safe

[This message edited by StillPossible at 8:07 PM, Friday, September 13th]

Here would be a rephrase of the delusions to transform them into positive beliefs:

1. Life is always changing, to expect stability is to invite disappointment and suffering

2. My reaction to the circumstances in my life is what bring joy or sorry, not the circumstances themselves.

3. Meet each moment as it is and trust in the mystery, wilderness, and openness of it all

4. The world is, fundamentally, safe

Thanks for taking the time to clarify. I think this is beautiful. I don't think I agree with your fourth point, not when mother nature has a 100% kill rate . But it does make me think of a line from (who else?) C.S. Lewis, this time from "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe"

Aslan is a lion- the Lion, the great Lion."

"Ooh" said Susan. "I'd thought he was a man. Is he-quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion"

"Safe?" said Mr Beaver ..."Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good.

I don't think life is safe. But I do think it's good.

…

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:52 AM, Saturday, September 14th]

Just don’t get with another woman who has that sort of bullshit.

In the vernacular of the recent past...word up to this! Especially if that "another" woman is your WW.

Okay, first- I am beginning to get concerned as to why you think I am not letting people be heard? Serious question.

This topic is one that is incredibly close to my heart. So I feel a strong emotional pull when it comes up.

I perceive that when this topic is brought up, it is deflected, like it’s not the real issue. But the thing is, it kind of is. It feels (to me) a lot like being told how I (and others) feel about this is flawed or that we need to actually understand what really matters. This just flat out matters to me, as it is, no redirection needed. I hear in others that they feel the same.

And it doesn’t take a trauma response, a woman grappling with her "good girl" societal expectations. All it takes is a rational calculation that a stable man will pay the bills, and choosing that at the expense of thrilling the loins. My wife once told me that she liked to date nerds (I qualified) because a friends mom told her that they would rule the world. Not exactly a lot of passion there.

Saying "just don’t go out with women like this" may be up for the least useful thing I’ve ever heard you say. I feel baited and switched in my marriage. My wife was affectionate, physical, passionate, right up to the day I said I do. And it shut off. And as a religious person with strong beliefs about marriage, I could not justify ending the marriage for that. So I was trapped.

This remains a fear of mine, and one I do not know how to mitigate. I don’t know how to prevent my next relationship from falling into this pattern while preserving anything of my beliefs about reasons for divorce. And if I get it wrong, for all intents and purposes I will have spent the prime of my life in passionless relationships.

You may have been on to something about the projection thing.

My wife was affectionate, physical, passionate, right up to the day I said I do. And it shut off. And as a religious person with strong beliefs about marriage, I could not justify ending the marriage for that. So I was trapped.

Um ... I think that's quite a bit more specific than the general topic you opened this thread with. (Shut up, grammarians.)

I'm really sorry you experienced that. My W was not up for sex on our wedding night ('too tired,' she said), and that really messed me up. I had no idea how to respond, except that I knew not forcing her was part of the right thing to do. Turned out she really needed a rest.

In any case, your W put you in a very difficult position. I don't know how I would have reacted, but I'm pretty sure I would have clammed up. Did you consult with anyone?

Ignore this if you don't want to discuss it.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:32 PM, Saturday, September 14th]

If I ever D, I don't think I would ever M again. I'm a little surprised that is something you are considering.

Um ... I think that's quite a bit more specific than the general topic you opened this thread with. (Shut up, grammarians.)

I kind of do that.

I'm really sorry you experienced that. My W was not up for sex on our wedding night ('too tired,' she said), and that really messed me up. I had no idea how to respond, except that I knew not forcing her was part of the right thing to do. Turned out she really needed a rest.

It wasn’t just the wedding night.

In any case, your W put you in a very difficult position. I don't know how I would have reacted, but I'm pretty sure I would have clammed up. Did you consult with anyone?

Yes, we saw marriage therapists thru the years. My wife was opaque to deceptive and I got told to do more household chores. I was told my expectations were unrealistic, when all I ever wanted was the same feelings I’d had dating to extend into our sex life.

If I ever D, I don't think I would ever M again. I'm a little surprised that is something you are considering.

I’ve never seriously considered a permanently single life. Maybe I should. Again, there are some long held, meaningful beliefs tied up there. I don’t know what the future holds, but safe to say I’m considering remarrying, even wanting it. Maybe that is what has been modeled to me, I don’t know.