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Now that my STBXWH has figured out he can't manipulate me directly anymore, he is working on me through my kids. When I am not home, he tells them untruths and half truths. Trying to convince them he has done nothing wrong, that he is the victim and that I must be crazy for carrying this out as long as I have.

On the one hand, it makes me furious! How dare he taint our kids and get into their heads like that. What a vicious scumbag. Hate is a four letter word to me, but I am getting there.

On the other hand, I am so fearful and worried for my kids. How can I undo this awful manipulative BS? They can never un-hear this garbage. They are too young to tell everything. I don't think they would understand the description of narcissistic abuse. They are pawns in his stupid game of "get back at the wife".

I don't understand what the end game is here. I am never going back to him. He is just reaffirming that for me daily. What is the point? What does this vicious monster have to gain? He's getting his money and his freedom. What else could he possibly want?

(Forgive me - I see the NPD thread, but not one for dealing specifically with psychopaths....though not all with NPD are psychopaths, all psychopaths have NPD, so I think this still fits....)

I have not ever told any of my three children my beliefs about their dad's mental state, nor that of his mistress, save that they "have problems". I have not even hinted to them, as I see it as much better for them to discern for themselves. (They are all three older and in IC to help them get through this time, so I was confident, with them having that support, they would be able to identify healthy and not healthy coping mechanisms and behaviors.)

Very recently, my youngest, a middle schooler, told me about a video she had seen that listed the ten traits of a psychopath; she told me she felt her dad fit every single one of them. (I did not have anything at all to do with her finding this video.)

Sigh. What does one do with this? I watched the video. She is right; he does fit the traits noted in the video. While we watched, she added she also feels mow fits these traits as well; she is right, but she just doesn't know how right she is. Sigh.

Mine has been love bombing the hell out of me, the thing is, it really only lasts a day or two and then he is right back to old behavior and he does not understand how I can not just fall at his feet and listen.

I am now in In House Separation, not much has changed lol, just my detachment (always working on that) and where I sleep.

He gave a Very heartfelt speech the second night, Very heartfelt, tears and everything. I was actually softening until he kept saying how I'm tearing up his life, that I am making our kids lose out on a good family life.

When I point out that it's still all about him, his response was and is "Well Yeah, I'm hurting here, you are making me insane, I Need My Wife Back, I cannot continue to live like this, My children will need their mother present in their lives (he resorts to threats of ending my life or my "not being around" as a scare tactic, or a threat of a threat)

We are IHS and he gets mad if I dont kiss him hello or goodbye.....now he has done this for years and it's pretty much the only kissing his does...3 quick pecks on the lips...not 4, not 2 but 3.

Once or twice a year I would try to switch it up and do 5 pecks or 1 (1 is not acceptable, anything other than 1 or 3 gets a mocking smile and sarcastic comment)

Yes the raging during arguments is quite a sight to behold. just ugh

If I was not as strong willed and stubborn as I am, WH would have walked over me more than he already has, I really think the EA would very quickly have turned into PA (I am not counting any shoving that has been done during our heated arguments since I reciprocated)

My mistake and I am still struggling with this, is thinking that WH is on the same mental level as I am, that he is coming from a place of a mature 47 yr old grown ass man. That we can talk about our problems, and discuss them. Not have WH take Every single freakin discussion as a personal attack on him, he does not improve but usually comes up with something I need to work on as long as it does not take away from his time. (He tries not to do this during his love bombing phases)

I see our Future in so many stories written here, WH is not capable of doing the long term work on himself. He is very mentally shallow (though he has been working on this I've noticed the last several months)

I feel like I can just keep writing examples of how my WH has acted exactly like the others on here, but then I might not ever stop. LOL

I am so grateful for this forum, it's very much helping me to see what a normal relationship actually looks like (although I will never get married again, it's nice to know it's possible) and helping me to become and stay strong....because regardless of what he says verbally. He. is. still. lying.

Still, I told my WH the other day that "it must really be draining to keep yourself under that much delusion, that, that requires a special skill and not everyone can do it. That I am just Amazed at the amount of delusion he keeps himself in. Just Amazing.

[This message edited by Green2016 at 2:42 PM, March 1st (Wednesday)]

Well, the melt down from the XW over the IRS refund money finally happened. [I agreed to give her $2000 for the kids deductions. She owed me $1325 in back medical bills for the kids. I sent her a check for $675 with the appropriate documentation]

She kept threatening me and demanding I respond to her. I finally told her that I would love to go to court with the court order that she is to pay me 21% of the kids' medical bills and that she owed me $1325; I've got all the documentation.

And...that she should focus more on staying out of jail (she has 4 DUI and 3 driving without a license charges pending against her) vs. threatening to take me to court.

And...that maybe instead of worrying about what I'm doing, she should get a job and help support her kids - call/see her DS (who lives with me), give middle DD money for food instead of making her buy it with her own money; pay something toward oldest DD's college bills (I pay everything).

Yeah, I poked the bear. But she's 5h away, and can't do anything to me.

So I sent that, then went to bed. I woke up to this (below) this morning. I'm putting this here for yall to get a look into the (broken) mind of an alcoholic NPD/BPD. Enjoy.

(Note: She used talk to text, so you might have to parse some of the wording; it is unedited - that is exactly what she sent me (except for names - those I redacted); each paragraph break is a separate text she sent.)

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Wow are you done being really rude. That's fine I'll see you in court

And you're probably going to lose both but the honest truth is [WornDown] you didn't even mention taking money out of mine so you're definitely an allusion only the 14th out 100 so I would definitely take my offer them to send me 1000 and being done because I won't hunt already told me you'll lose

The drunken NPD tirade. Once you get your head wrapped around what they are and achieve some detachment, it becomes pathetically funny.

I have received similar in the past. Finally changed my phone number this past fall. The single best thing I did for myself. We do not have children together so I can give that gift to myself.

The swings between the anger and crazy accusations and then a day or so later, the I miss you, I am so sorry and then back again. If I didn't believe that he was "disturbed", I would go crazy.

The last text I received from x was him telling me, "I'm pregnant". Seriously he did send this. I just can't even begin to imagine what he hoped to achieve with that one.

So now at work, I showed everyone that one because well, it was just so out there, it has become a joke. Whenever anyone does something off, makes a silly mistake or a customer is very rude, the code for ass is now, they must be pregnant.

You just have to laugh at this stuff, eventually. I never thought I would get to this point but finally, here I am.

You all will too. Believe yourself. The things that they say and do, they are as terrible and abusive as you ever imagined, more than likely, worse than you even acknowledge.

Strength everyone. This does get better and there are some amazing people in this world that do not take pleasure in crushing your soul.

I never have gotten, and expect never to get, any version of the hoover that includes "miss you" or "sorry" or anything similar. Exwh still denies the A, even though the two admit that, at least, they decided shortly before he filed they would be together, and that they were sexual within months of the filing (when the D process took over 3 years...). So, they both try to deny there was an A, even as evidence, including expert evaluator's opinion, points to one that began many years before.

What has happened, and, really, all along, except for when he was angry, is exwh trying to be friends. He tried to talk friendly in the midst of the worst turmoil. He tried, during in house hell, to talk about such things as the possibility we may lose power in the predicted (but not realized) winter weather, when I was doing all I could to first stay away from him and second get the laundry done before the weather came, just in case of such a power outage (you know - actually doing the prep work, not just chatting about it might happen). He has tried to act friendly at other times as well, and gotten quite upset with me that I am civil, but not his friend. (For example, if his text is not about the kids or finances, I don't respond, and that ticks him off greatly.) It is actually rather creepy he tries to be so friendly, and even my IC has said as much, but, yet, he keeps at it....even now.

Just seeking an opinion, but do you think this is a version of the hoover? As he still denies the A and blames the M falling apart solely on me, he can't really present a traditional one of begging to have me back. (He also knows I am completely and totally done with him and will not ever take him back - and, since he knows me, he knows when I am done, I mean I am done.) I know the cheater's handbook is to be friends, so then what they did couldn't possibly be that bad, right, since the two are friends and all.... But, do you think maybe, in my situation, it is also a form of the hoover? I ask because this seems to be one of the few behaviors related to NPD my exwh doesn't seem to do....so I am curious.

Thanks for any and all comments.

I ask because this seems to be one of the few behaviors related to NPD my exwh doesn't seem to do....so I am curious

Possibly? I don't think it is necessary to have all of the traits to be dangerous. Just a few of the traits are enough to cause a whole lot of damage in others lives.

Even a diagnoses, a label became irrelevant to me. The behavior is dangerous, it is persistent, it is predictable over time. I know it is so hard to wrap your mind around.

It really just comes down to believing that he is not a good person, could cause you harm and your best recovery option is as little contact as possible and most important of all, building a good life for yourself.

Learn as much as you can and avoid these kinds of people going forward!

I know his behaviors are dangerous; I know it is his behaviors that should be my focus, and they are. No diagnosis will change anything, but I am simply curious as to what actually fits. (I am actually thinking he has more than one major issue, which is part of what makes it difficult to pinpoint; the others are that he is a covert NPD and that he is with a likely BPD, maybe ASPD, mow, whom he may be mirroring - which means her behaviors are getting mixed in with his own but they are not truly his for use in diagnosing....) No, I am not thinking I could get a firm diagnosis by myself, as I recognize I am no expert. It is just that, in dealing with these two obviously issues-ridden people through a tortuous D process, I have developed a curiosity in this area which includes speculating on what the specific issues for the two may be.

And, yes, I am as no contact as I can be, given exwh and I have children together. But, thank you for the thoughts; they are a good reminder for all.

I think I spent an entire year after dday #2 reading every single day about personality disorders. I think it is important to understand what happened, it seems to calm the mind, helps with acceptance.

It is only just recently that I just don't care so much what his exact problem is. I just know he has a big one, always has and that it has nothing to do with me. It was a long time in coming.

Now that I don't really care, it is a relief for me. It feels like a burden lifted. I will never forget and I am so aware of the behaviors now, cautious around new people.

Have you ever read Neuroinstincts by Rhonda Freeman? It is online and you can google it. Very good articles, rather simple but always seemed to hit the spot for me.

Keep digging for as long as you need to. I hope I did not come across as judgmental, that was not my intent. I get it. I get it all too well.

Can - I did not take your post as judgemental at all. I have actually posted something very similar in the past, because the label isn't what truly matters, as you don't deal with a label, but with behaviors. I am very aware of this, but my nature is to be curious, so that is why I still try to figure him out.

Maybe it has something to do with that I will never have the answers to some questions such as when the A really began, and what all he did for her - some things that were presented as done for me included her, due to our (supposed) friendship, which, now knowing about the A, I wonder if doing it for me was the excuse/cover used with the true purpose of doing it for her. Not knowing when the A started, I will not ever know the truth of this either. (He did use the excuse/cover of doing father/child things with one of our kids to take mow out to do things several times in the months before filing, so he is familiar with the behavior.)

Maybe that is why I am so curious as to what he might be diagnosed as, if he were diagnosed - because having some sort of answer to that is one less thing never answered.

I do know he has some major problems, and I have known it for some time. I also know he had these long before we met, and he won't ever be without them, but only maybe able to manage/control them. I know this doesn't have to do with me, though it is still difficult not to take some items personally still; maybe I will get there someday - to where I don't care - but, for now, it is hard to believe I won't, in the future, still feel that sadness when I think of the M and this time in my life and how it all fell apart after I gave it, and him, so much.

The unanswered questions, I have them too. I am still surprised when I discover something I thought was true was a lie.

Now if I have a doubt, a wondering moment, I just assume the worst. I don't think that there is anything left that can hurt me.

I am sorry that you feel that sadness. To be honest I still have those moments too. I just remind myself that the bad far outweighed the good, that every good had a price to pay.

It's okay that you are where you are right now. It takes a whole lot of time and unraveling. I see that you join date is August of 2014, that is when I was finally divorced. It is only recently that I am feeling so much better.

I remember thinking that I would always be consumed with this. I can honestly tell you that now if I come upon an article about psychopathy, I skim it and mostly think, okay I know that already. I have just gotten to a point where I know enough. It felt like a shift not a decision, just a natural progression. Now I am more interested in how I build my life and function with all of this new found knowledge. How do I trust now that I know there are monsters in the world. How do I not mistrust everyone.

You are doing fine. Do what makes you feel better. Eventually it will just fade away and you will just not care. I don't think you can push it though, you just have to ride it out until it is comfortable for you.

You really will get through this. I didn't believe it either. I just had to trust the words of those that had been there before me. They were right.

I have not read this whole thread because it is so lengthy but I do hop in from time to time. It is interesting to read people's similar experiences. I can relate to many of them. TodayI I need some advice about talking to kids.

My WH is most certainly a covert narcissist. My DS21 sees it very clearly. He recently moved out. My middle DS18 is having a really hard time with the divorce.

I didn't realize how conflicted my DS18 was until he came home for his spring break. He sees his dad looking ill and depressed. He sees that we don't talk to each other. We coexist. Period. Those of you who have read any of my posts know about his NPD antics. He's super fun to live with.

Anyway, I don't know how to talk to DS18 about this. He is not home anymore because of college. He knows why I am divorcing his father. He knows his father has had some issues in the past. He still loves and cares about his father.

Deep down (REAL deep) I do too. I am doing the whole 180, grey rock modified NC thing like it's my job. This is for self preservation. As I am sure you all know. But I was once very much in love with the guy.

DS18 does not know about NPD. I have not really gone into that kind of detail with him. He is the entertainer of the family, the clown. He only sees his damaged father moping around like a ghost.

When WH gets a whiff of DS18's sadness he takes FULL advantage. ("Well I've been to some job fairs but no one wants to hire a 51 year old who's been out of the workforce for 25 years...sigh...) Poor DS18 eats it up. Any kid would.

(Surprisingly, I think DS13 has his number. Doesn't fall for that. Presumably because he lives the whole thing every day and sees his dad watching countless hours of TV all day long.)

So anyway, DS18 spent most of his break avoiding us. Or not being home at least. I tried to talk to him but he was not having it. He is super worried that his dad is going to kill himself. I don't know how to help my son. I know his dad is not going to kill himself. He will not lose. He may smoke himself to death or take such shitty care of himself that he dies, but he's is not going to commit suicide. That would be losing and NPD's don't lose.

Plus now he has a fresh source of supply. DS18. I am sure with a willing caring audience like this he is going to amp up. Let the games begin. I don't know how to protect my son. Thankfully he is away. But texting and sending emails is still very possible. I am sick over it.

Any advice on how to talk to and/or protect my son?

I want to add to "Wiserallthetime" that yes that is hoovering in my opinion. Also, that is the one aspect of NPD that my husband does not do in a classic way. I believe that cleaning the house, doing little things around the house can also be construed as hoovering. It's kind of funny, but to me it seems like that's all the altruism my self-centered husband can muster. It's like "really, that's the best you can do?"

Honestgirl - First, thanks for adding your thoughts to my question. I appreciate the input.

Second, as to your DS18: I think you have to try to step back and let him figure things out on his own. You can certainly correct the record, when your WH lies or tries to manipulate your DS18, if you know about it and have the appropriate opportunity to do so; I think this is totally appropriate, and I have used it myself. The most effective way to do it is to ask a question, often in terms of "does it really makes sense?"

For example, using the job search thing your WH said about going to a few job fairs, you could speak to DS18 about how most people speak of how, if you truly are wanting to get a job, then job-seeking should be a full-time job in and of itself, to be successful; then, ask DS18 if going to a few job fairs sounds as though WH is putting in 40 hours a week (which equals full-time work) searching for a job. Of course, the timing has to be right for you to speak of such, but you get the idea.

I have used this method, as well as simply correcting the lies exwh spoke about me, with my children, two of whom are now young adults. The most effective thing, though, was when the children had to spend time with exwh without me around to run interference, or with it being a situation, such as exwh constantly being late for pick up times, where I could not cover for him now, even if I wanted. (I think it is typical in these type of relationships that the non-NPD tends to cover for the NPD with others, especially with the children....to make things "alright" or smooth things over for the children....) The children started seeing for themselves the real truth about their dad - about who he truly was when mom wasn't there to hide it from them. Sadly, this has resulted in all three not caring to spend time with him anymore; all three only do so out of obligation and to appease him, or to get something from him. They care about him, but only because he is their father, and not because they like him in any way. This was nothing of my doing; in fact, had he not left us, he would likely have been much better off in his relationships with the children, as he would still have me covering for him with them. I simply could not cover for him after he left if I wanted, as it took being present for me to do so.

Your DS18 is away at college already, and, if I recall your situation correctly, you are still in house with WH. I do think once DS18 can experience for himself your WH's behaviors, with you not trying to "make it alright" for the child, or to smooth things over for them (and, yes, I am assuming that you do), even if still in house with WH, then DS18 will begin to see and will not be so taken in by WH's manipulations. But, you have to step out of the way - whether that happens because of a conscious decision/act on your part or because in house ends. Then, be ready to be there for DS18, because figuring these things out is pretty rough on a person, as you well know. However, as DS18 is away at college, he will also have fewer chances to see for himself, at least for a while, so it may take a longer time for this to happen, which calls for more patience than you would like....

(Oh, and don't bad-mouth WH to the children, even adult ones, but don't paint him as something he is not either. I refuse, for instance, to say exwh loves our children, because I don't believe he knows what love is; however, I also don't say he doesn't love them, though I may say he thinks he is showing love with certain behaviors. I also do let the children vent to me about exwh, but only about new items; we don't re-hash old stuff, and, when they start, I cut it off with saying we aren't holding a "bash dad session." They tend to respect this, and me for it. I do allow them to voice their thoughts and feelings, and I validate they are entitled to them, even if all I say is literally that they have a right to feel that way; I also will tell them if I have experienced the same feelings about things their dad does, as that helps validate their own feelings as well. - but, the focus is on how we feel, and not on their dad. The biggest thing I have found that helps the children as they process this is simply being sure they know I am truly listening. It can be tough to keep from "joining in" when the kids vent, but do your best - they really just want to be heard, not to hear you also tear WH down.)

All that is simply my two cents, of course - I am no expert, but only working my own way through this mess, so take what seems helpful and discard the rest.

Thank you, WATT. That was a lot of very good information! I will give my DS18 some time and some space. I think that is best😊

Another question I'd like to put out there to those of you in similar relationships:

Do you think the bad things our WS's do and say are intentional? Premeditated? Intended to destroy us?

I've read a ton on NPD and most of what I've read makes it seem like their actions and words are deliberate and goal directed. The goal being to destroy their "victim".

Do you think the bad things our WS's do and say are intentional? Premeditated? Intended to destroy us?

Here are my simple answers to your questions. You could write books about this topic, and they indeed, have been written.

Intentional? Yes - they are trying to manipulate us to bend to their reality/desires.

Premeditated? That's more tricky. I (mostly) think that they just do it. They don't lay out a plan to manipulate you, they just try different things to get their way. When they find something that works, they run with it. If it stops, they try something else. Their well-being (mental, physical) is their #1 priority. It's like asking if breathing is premeditated.

Intended to destroy us? I don't think they "intend" to destroy us. That's just a by product of their actions. And the fact that they just don't care about your feelings.

I agree, for the most part with Worndown. Where I disagree is about the intent to destroy. I think they do intend to destroy, but probably only truly when they hit the discard phase, particularly if they are truly ending the relationship. Exwh certainly pulled out all the stops, together with mow, in attempts to destroy me ever since he made the decision to toss me and his family aside for her - he has messed with my legal record by filing false reports and lawsuits which impacts my ability to get a job, messed with my reputation both socially and in the job sector, messed with me financially, tried to convince me and others I was the one with mental issues, and has tried multiple ways to have me put in jail, only because he and mow have decided that should be my punishment for continuing to exist/be in the way, or maybe just because I exposed the A and spoiled their plans....and, yes, he has messed with my sense of security and safety, as he has obviously made attempts to get me out of the picture, and I am unsure how far he will take it.

On the other hand, I think the intent to destroy is inherent in the case of a sociopath/psychopath throughout the encounter, and, that, I think is the specific difference in dealing with an NPD and dealing with a sociopath/psychopath.

(I believe exwh to be NPD, possibly co-morbid with BPD; I believe mow to be a sociopath, co-morbid with BPD, with my IC thinking it entirely possible mow is at least BPD, based upon my relating of events to IC. Just wanted to give you the "where" of from where I am coming on this....)

Intended to destroy us? I don't think they "intend" to destroy us. That's just a by product of their actions. And the fact that they just don't care about your feelings.

That's exactly it! Once I realized it, everything was much easier to deal with. And then I began to understand that exWW didn't care about anyone's else's feelings either, beyond how it affected her.

Kind of like a parasite. They drain what they can from the host until they kill it or the host develops immunity and then they move on to a new host.

I have read so much since I was told my WH probably has NPD. No one has really diagnosed him as he has never followed through with counseling. ("They don't know what they're talking about. They just want to keep taking our money.") He does fit the description pretty well. The thing is, I can make the description fit any of the cheaters that I have encountered in my life and many other creeps and losers.

The most recent thing I have read, which was supposedly referenced from a psychology journal, was that only 6.2% of people encounter NPD during their lifetime. That's not a lot. But the more I research it, the more common it seems. There is a plethora of "self-help" type info to be found on the internet for survivors of narcissistic abuse. It feels like narc's are everywhere.

Has anyone out there had their partner definitively diagnosed? If yes, what did it take? Do you think it is as uncommon as the literature would suggest or are narc's everywhere?

6% may not seem like a lot, but in a country of 350 million, that's 21 million NPDs. I've seen research that says all personality disorders encompass about 9% of the total population.

My exW was never completely diagnosed as NPD. She was diagnosed as ADHD, Bipolar II. She had a therapist who thought she might be BPD, but XW stopped seeing her shortly after that discussion.

And that, I think is the problem. The personality disorders are hard to diagnose; there needs to be a long term evaluation of the person's behaviors. Short of that they get the bipolar, ADHD, etc. diagnoses. And, the patient has to WANT to be evaluated and diagnosed. Many don't; because as NPD/BPDs they view their problems as everyone else's fault.

Looking at my ex, I'm convinced that she's co-morbid with BPD and NPD.

The other part of the problem, IMO, is that most people, when they hear NPD, just think that anyone who is somewhat narcissistic is NPD. Not true. As anyone on here can attest, NPD are a whole other level of destruction. I once had a friend who thought NPD was just overblowing normal arrogance - basic narcissism. When I told him what I went through, he changed his mind.