SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Worndown, I suspect by ex was/is BPD. He had at least 3/4 of the things listed.

Thanks for everyone's input. I don't come into this thread very often, but I'll keep checking to help others!

Here's a gem of a text from my stupid WH today. No idea what this means or why it's making me cry. I guess I've just had a momentary lapse of toughness.

"I know you have your own agenda and the lawyers definitely don't want us to talk to each other. That being said, I think we can save time, money, and reduce some of the stress by actually trying to move forward. There will be a ton of details and paperwork as you get your own mortgage, your own home, auto, and health insurance. There will also be retitling the cars, turning in the jeep. There will be the issues of taxes, FAFSA, retirement accounts. Mailing address, bank account, school notifications, medical records. I am looking for an apartment and have one that is available 9/1 but it will not be available much longer and as you are aware are unable to secure anything without the funding required. Yes you stripped me of the most important thing in my life (you). The money, house, stuff is important to you. The lawyers and you are the only reason this isn't over. You will never strip me of my love for the boys or their love for me. You can not take my pride, my intelligence, my sense of humor, my compassion, my true friends. I am really sorry for everything and hope that someday we can coexist in the boys lives."

Funny how he uses the word "strip" so liberally. lol laughing through tears.

Are you still living in the same house?

I know that I couldn't even begin to see the horror of how I had lived until long after he was gone. I cannot imagine in house separation. I guess I was lucky that he was so cowardly and ran each time I found out.

His text is enough to make you cry. He is trying to push your buttons. The buttons that have empathy and just don't want any of this to be reality. It is so hard to wrap your mind around who he is. You don't want to believe it but you must. He is trying to put the weight of responsibility on you for his actions.

Of course he is so full of compassion and intelligence! It shows in all his actions.

Intelligent, compassionate men make choices that blow up their families.

It is such a jumble of nonsense. It is all your fault that I screwed up but I said I'm sorry, why is that not enough?

He has stripped himself of every shred of integrity.

He is trying to mess with you, gain back that control, put you in to the one down position. Don't believe a shred of it. Hold on to the truth. You know the truth.

It will be okay. It will take time and I would expect that it will still be very hard until he is out of the house. That is truly a hell that I couldn't imagine.

Keep posting. Don't let him see that you hurt. Put it all out here where you are safe.

(((Honestgirl)))

Thank you cantaccept for your very kind words.

I didn't respond to this mess. I just looked at it and read it several times. Trying to make sense of it. Like, what is the purpose of this? We are cohabiting. It is hell. He is working on my kids (and anyone else who'll listen I guess) with his utter NONSENSE.

He keeps saying he still loves me and this is all because I want it. Like I brought this on our family. I swear sometimes I think my kids agree. He is totally getting into their heads. I can't do anything about it except stay on the high road. The high road is a f***ing lonely awful place.

I just hope I feel peace when he's gone and that my kids will get it over time. Also, I'm looking forward to all those "details". Bring it baby. It's one step closer to being done with my stupid WH.

A bit of a vent here.

BPD ex is getting married today....meh. Not really anything that affects me emotionally. I've grown past being twisted by her disordered behavior.

What bothers me is how the fucked up becomes the norm for everyone directly around a PD.

Last weekend my DD (just turned 3) asked me out of the blue, "Daddy, are you going to the wedding?"

It caught me a bit off guard. I replied, "no pumpkin, I wasn't invited." In my head I was thinking, "no, Daddy's busy that day. Maybe he can go to the next one."

She didn't say anything else about it but I could see her trying to process that information. We've been separated since she was 1 and well...the fucked up has become the norm for her.

ex didn't love her first husband, me, AP's, fiancé #1, or current fiancé #2. Whether or not she's able to love anyone is debatable. What isn't is that she has continued her inexorable descent into crazed, disordered, shit-baggery for 25 years or so. Just like her mother.

Sighhh!

isitme24

Do any of you worry about whether your child is (or is becoming) narcissistic, too? I have two kids, and the youngest looks to her mother as her model. She's only six, and she is probably picking up on what's happening between her mom and me in recent weeks. But on the other hand, she is becoming increasingly manipulative, sullen, impatient, and demanding, causing problems for each of her caregivers (including her mom and me). In trying to help her through any one of her fits I can't help but think, "you are so much like your mother." It's sad and unnerving. Terrifying, really. I want her to love her mom but I don't want her to act like her mom or start thinking like her mom. She would be incredibly unhappy, lonely, and hurtful. And frankly I feel so emotionally drained (by her mom) already as it is.

digifuwill -

Yes. I worry about my DD18. She is very much like her mother - prone to hyperbole, gets depressed, can be up and down. But, she's 18 and has gone through hell the last 5-6 years.

The good news: She doesn't want to be like her mom. Recognizes in herself, when she is starting to get anxious, go off the rails.

Just because someone may be predisposed to be NPD (genetics), I don't think that is an automatic given.

But that said, we have to accept that somethings are what they are, and we can not change it. Dealing with my ex made me realize that I can't change people, they have to want to change. Our kids will grow up to be their own person, and we can't change that. We can try to influence it (therapy, being good parents), but in the end, they will be who they are, who they want to be.

I worry about all my boys becoming either narcissists or addicts or both. I've tried to instill in them a sense of empathy for others and I continue to try to lead by example. I'm not a saint by any means, but I know I don't have a disordered personality. I am an "empath", for lack of a better word.

I don't know how much control I have over the outcome. I just keep on keeping on and try to show them how to behave toward other people.

I don't know how strong this whole "genetic predisposition" thing is.

I worry more about addiction most days. My FIL is a 31 year member of AA (and sober for just as long). Meanwhile my BIL died of alcohol poisoning after a very long career of alcoholism. My other BIL is also a drinker, and a philanderer. My husband isn't a drinker but he is a 2ppd smoker and has had various other addictions throughout his life.

I don't know how to stop it from happening. I have read so much. There is a lot out there. None of it is good prognosis-wise.

I have gotten myself so upset at times, I'm pretty much just ready to let the chips fall where they may.

I certainly can't make a 13 year old boy read up about narcissism. My 22 year old is already sick of hearing about his dad's legacy and the 19 year old is so self-absorbed, he can't be bothered with a conversation that's not about him or his career in acting.

Yes you stripped me of the most important thing in my life (you). The money, house, stuff is important to you. The lawyers and you are the only reason this isn't over. You will never strip me of my love for the boys or their love for me. You can not take my pride, my intelligence, my sense of humor, my compassion, my true friends. I am really sorry for everything and hope that someday we can coexist in the boys lives

Honestgirl.. wow.. your post here (the whole thing connected to this text too) gave me the creeps- it sounds like what my WH would write to me. Begging me to make this easy so he wouldn't be held back in life anymore.. what? Dude you did this to yourself- no one else did this. I wonder if your WH and mine are related

I bolded that one part of the above, because it DOES NOT FIT with the rest.. it's not sincere nor an apology in the least--- it's ... disgusting ! Trying to seem like an apology but really, it's justifying his behaviours and blaming you.. No!

I hope you are holding strong through all this! :)

I've never posted to this forum before, but tonight, my WS shocked me with a story from his childhood, that I got a strong sense was a case of a child being "gaslighted" by his father whom he idolized (yet I have heard enough to think his father didn't return the love.) During a year of intense therapy, stories gradually emerged of childhood neglect, plus emotional abuse and multiple familial sexual offenders (mother, paternal grandfather).

Tonight, to try to explain another instance of his secretive behavior about some minor thing, why he didn't feel he could let me know he was going to do it, one adult to another (we are in our 60's!), WS came up with a story I'd never heard before in 25 years with him.

He said he thought his resistance to being straightforward about what he wants to do and letting me know, is something he learned from having his wishes thwarted in his childhood. Well DUH, I've heard this 100 times. I asked "Please give me an example." He came up with the following:

It happened on his 10th birthday. He knew that his father had gotten him a Go-Kart and he was eager to get home from school. At the beginning of that school year, the school bus driver had assured him and his father that the bus could make a small detour if the boy ever needed to get home to the farm, which would get him home an hour earlier. (This was many years ago and a rural, private school system).

My WS said he had never asked the bus driver for this favor, until his 10th birthday. My WS told me "I got home around 3:30 instead of 4:30. My father got really upset with me because I asked to come home early." I asked why. He said "He was upset with me for inconveniencing the school bus driver, and how dare I do that..."

I stood there speechless, thinking how this must have felt, on his birthday. It didn't make sense, since the father had gone through the trouble to get his son a nice present. I almost got tears in my eyes about it. I asked him "Who got upset with you first, your mother or your father?" He said "I can't recall if my mother was there when I got home. I don't think she was, she had run to town, I think. I said "Maybe she was getting last minute supplies for your birthday party?" He said "No, there wasn't going to be a party..."

"So, your father was there, you got home, and he was upset?" He said "I didn't see him when I first got home, I think he was out in the back paddock or something." I said "Exactly what was the problem, did your father feel you spoiled his big surprise for you, because you were already looking at it, or something?" He said "No, I got in trouble because I asked the bus driver to make an extra loop to drop me off early. But I blocked out my bad feelings about being yelled at, because I was so interested in the Go-Kart."

Something was starting to hit me. How much like an abusive parent to blame the child, or anybody, to deflect attention from the real problem going on.

I thought "Whoa, to me, this seems more like his father used the excuse of inconveniencing the driver, but was actually annoyed with his son for coming home unexpectedly early. Like 'How dare he set his own schedule?' Why would that be a problem? Well, maybe if Dad didn't want to have to worry about Sonny Boy showing up without notice? Why else would he get so bent out of shape, especially on the boy's birthday?"

WS was taken with his father on local trips when he was around 8-10 years old and they would be gone most of the day. His father would stop at a local pub in the evening before they returned home for dinner. Since it was against the law to allow children inside, 8 year old WS had to sit out in the vehicle for more than an hour, while his father was doing whatever inside. Then on the ride home, his father would order him not to tell his mother they'd stopped. Like drinking a beer was a big deal to his mother? More likely, I have always thought, is that mother might ask father what he was doing in that pub for an hour, while the boy was left out in the vehicle unsupervised. My WS has refused to look at it from this angle. Yet he has treated me with this same kind of sneaky behavior, for many years!

Anyway, the more I thought about this story tonight, the more money I'd bet this was a case of a parent "gaslighting" his kid into feeling bad about himself, just to discourage the boy from ever again coming home unexpectedly early. I think the old man was hiding some things.

But I may have an over-active imagination. Does anybody get the sense this was Narcissistic abuse? I had a mean father myself, who hit me with a belt on my 4th birthday for touching my own birthday cake before "my" party, so I can relate. But I've never heard a grown man explain why he thinks he was scarred for life, just for getting home a bit early as a 10 year old and being criticized for having normal childhood feelings. (Nor do I know if I'm being BS'd myself with this justification. Just that in 25 years I've known this man, this is a new one.) Insights appreciated!

My hope is that my WS can finally break through to see what was done to him, to protect his Narcissistic parents. Believing the reality they impressed on him has really messed his life up. It would be great if my WS would learn that he doesn't have to go through life reacting to his parental abuse. Maybe this is not possible, but if he could see other's thoughts, it may help him break through his denial. Thanks for reading!

Supresse - your story about the bus incident pretty much only brings to mind many questions, to which you will likely never have an answer (this is with taking what you wrote here all by itself, as I do not know the background on dear old dad):

- Did the driver actually speak with both you wh and his dad and make the offer to bring wh home early and dad either forgot, honestly, or never expected wh to take the driver up on it (maybe thinking all along it was not appropriate to accept), or is this just how wh wants to remember it, and he actually convinced the driver to do it that day, for his birthday, though no offer had previously been made? Maybe then, to cover himself with dad, wh made up the story about an offer being made, and now maybe doesn't even remember he had made that part up? Or, maybe the driver did make the offer to wh, but never actually did to dad, but wh remembers it that way, for whatever reason, but this is part of why dad reacted the way he did?

- Was it honestly dad's thinking wh inconvenienced the bus driver, either because the offer was never made, never made with dad there, or forgotten by dad, or maybe that dad felt it was not an offer one should ever accept? (Maybe dad felt the offer was improper to make in the first place, but never told wh that.... In this case, dad would want to make it clear son should not do it again, but sometimes people hint at such matters and never make a clear boundary about behavior expected, even with children.) Is it possible dad had told son not to ever ask the driver to go through with the offer, not to ever inconvenience the driver that way, and, because son did, dad was appropriately fussing at son for not following his directions? (Kids don't get a pass on bad behavior just because it is their birthday....)

- Is it true dad's only complaint to wh was the bus driver was inconvenienced, or is that just how wh remembers it when dad actually also fussed at wh for something else about it as well?

- Is it possible dad was actually annoyed with the bus driver, as maybe it was a violation of the rules to alter the route, or maybe dad felt driver should have gotten word from the parents before delivering a child home to a potentially empty house due to being an hour early, and, yet, as the driver was not there, took it out on wh? (This is not right, but is something a great deal number of people do.)

- Is it possible dad ranted about the driver delivering wh home early unexpectedly, to vent off steam, but not actually fussing at wh, but, being a child, wh took it personally?

- Is it possible dad had some plans on either something for wh, special for his birthday, or otherwise, to get done before wh got home, and the early arrival kept dad from doing them? Maybe dad had something special in mind for wh, something planned for a while and looked forward to doing it, but now would not be able to do it, which highly frustrated dad....wouldn't make his fussing at the child appropriate, but might explain it a bit.

I doubt that helped you any, or maybe it did. I deal with a probable BPD, maybe ASPD in MOW and a possible BPD and NPD in xwh, with none of it diagnosed, and I have learned the only way to get to truth, maybe, is by asking all kinds of in depth questions. (The technique also helps whenever you are hearing from only one side, usually the side that feels wronged, and wish to do what you can to stay neutral and give the other side the benefit of the doubt, recognizing you are only hearing from one side.)

I also caution you from believing too easily what is said by wh without any proof or confession of the wrong-doers, if you are certain wh has a PD, even if, and maybe especially if, told to a therapist. (Doesn't apply if no PD is involved.) Too many PD's are experts at lying and think nothing of ruining another's reputation/image or even life, if doing so will get what the PD wants. There are PDs that would cry rape after a consensual act, because the PD doesn't want anyone to know he/she is that kind of person to, say, have a ONS, or to cheat on a mate; my IC told of deliberately not locking his office door when in session with a known BPD, in particular, and had the office staff purposely interrupting at times, to thwart any possible accusations of inappropriate behavior on his part with the BPD, which he stated could be triggered in the BPD simply because of a misinterpreted look, and not even any contact at all (and he makes no contact anyway...).... Often, the PD actually believes this false accusation to be true, as the PD adjusts his/her feelings to the false accusation in order to convey it to his/her listeners, which, because this PD relies on feelings to present reality instead of facts, now believes the new feelings (the ones based on a false accusation the PD made) as truth and reality.... (See two paragraphs down to somewhat further explain this, though this particular scenario takes it a step further into a PD's tendency to circular, or spiral, thought patterns.....)

There are PDs who simply make it a game to get one over on another, and especially therapists. It becomes "fun" to the PD to see how extreme a story they can conjure before the therapist finally calls BS on it.... It becomes "fun" to see how much sympathy the PD can garner, or how long the PD can get another to stay with them and put up with their crap. They can be very convincing, too, as they play these games.

Also, many PDs see things through feelings, not facts, and that becomes their reality, their "truth"....so, if I use your story of the bus incident above, an example would be that dad ranted about the bus driver not being responsible and dropping off son so early with no communication with dad to be sure a parent would be there, maybe even said something about inconveniencing the parents, potentially, and son felt he was actually being fussed at instead, even switching the part of who was inconvenienced to the driver instead of being the parents, so that became the story, the "truth" son lived forever and then related to you recently - reality is the dad fussed about the driver's actions, but son's reality, born through feelings, is that son was fussed at....Not saying that is what truly happened there, just coming up with an example of how a PD might use feelings to determine reality for the PD. Another example would be that the PD usually did some task for someone; that someone found another way to get the task done that maybe was even more efficient and/or convenient than having the PD do it, and the PD, as it feels that way to the PD, probably due to abandonment issues or maybe it is a blow to self-esteem somehow, decides the someone had an argument with the PD over it and took the task from the PD in anger..... The fight never happened, and the someone was not ever angry, but the PD sees it that way, due to using feelings to determine facts, instead of the other way around, and that becomes the PD's reality....

Back to your post, honestly, and maybe it's just worded wrong, but, the statement your wh is using of "his wishes were thwarted in childhood" being the basis of him having issues now just seems like more of his issues showing - it sounds incredibly immature. Childhood is not a time for all your wishes to be granted, and, in fact, it is prime time to learn that life is not a fairy tale in which all wishes are granted as desired, but that many times, they will indeed be thwarted, and how to handle that appropriately. An emotionally mature adult would be able to look back on childhood and recognize these things. Sorry if that comes across as rough, but, if your wh's parents did not teach him life is not fair and how to adjust, that is where they did the disservice, not in not giving him everything he wanted, which is the way this from him comes across here on the forum. (Sorry if not reading it right and/or misunderstanding....)

That above story you related about the driver dropping wh off early is only one event, so there is nothing here to present a pattern for dad, or mom, as to what may have been a catalyst for wh's issues, though you gave a generalized list that shows you have much more to point to than presented here, and those noted items would definitely create problems for a person. You also told of dad going in a bar for a drink while son sat in the car and then making son keep secrets from mom - this I think most definitely did damage, particularly as it seems it was done multiple times, and became, then, to wh, "the norm" for how one should behave, and, as you discerned, likely translated into being used by wh as the basis for other purposes of being sneaky and hiding things from your spouse and believing it to be "the norm" and, thus, ok somehow.

Wow.... that was long.... sorry....but maybe there is something in there you can use....

Joining this thread.

STBX BS is undiagnosed BPD. If only I had just given him MORE ATTENTION, MORE APPRECIATION he wouldn't have needed to use escorts.

He has fooled many a IC/MC that he doesn't have anything more than "stress and some depression" oh, and a wife who gets fed up.

My own IC is the one who led me to see he is BPD and wow, does the shoe fit.

I also worry that one of my kids has these traits but I can't distinguish if it's just teenager attitude with a side of anxiety/depression. But then, that's what BH's wishy washy diagnosis was.

Scary.

Wiserallthetime, thank you for putting so much thought into your response, which I just read to WS. He confirmed his original take on his memory. I feel his reactions were congruent, and listening to his story paraphrased through your post helped him clarify his recollections.

My first thought as well had been that my WS, as a 10 year old, may have spoiled part of the parents’ plan for his birthday; but he strongly denied that thought last month. Again just now, he has reiterated “no,” and said his father had no plans that were scuttled regarding the Kart; his father had removed the drive belt from it, so my WS couldn’t use it until his Dad was ready to let him use it, I take it.

You make an excellent observation about the PD using their feelings instead of facts to explain life. He may be doing that. I still have a feeling his father could have been covering up for his not wanting to ever be caught off his good Dad behavior. Lots of things go on, on a farm; people come and go, it isn’t so private as a regular home, and I don’t rule out that his Dad had some secret life going on. I came to this years ago after WS told of being sexually abused by his father’s father in the barn at age 3, and again, “just between us...” I told WS if his grandfather would do that to him at age 3, it was probably done to his father, too. Sick!

The original reason WS dug this story out of his memory was to attempt to answer where his own behavior comes from. At least he didn’t give me the usual “I don’t know.” But it is crazy to be stuck in that childhood mentality 48 years later. It’s really as though WS wants to be just like dad , 50 years later. Wonder what that is all about.

[This message edited by Superesse at 2:04 PM, November 27th (Monday)]

If only I had just given him MORE ATTENTION, MORE APPRECIATION he wouldn't have needed to use escorts.

Just so you know, if you haven't figured it out already, that whole defense of "If you had just done more X," is just classic blameshifting.

It such a bullshit argument, too. I mean...

If you had just called him ONE more time during work, or just told him ONE more time how much you appreciated him, he wouldn't have hired a pro?

Please. It's a movable goal, that is set by the WS. You'll never achieve it, and always be not "enough."

Supresse - I am glad you took my post in the spirit it was offered; I know it would have been easy to take offense at at least parts of it.

You do have to be careful with a PD's memory of events, because they see things through the immature eyes of a child, instead of ones of an adult. Everyone's memories are a bit skewed, and imperfect, but a PDs can be in great error, changing everything from the time of year and weather (with that becoming a significant factor in the story when maybe it had nothing to do with the event) to who was involved and who did what, or adding people/things/words said that were never there, merely because they felt they were. Their memories can also be skewed just because, at the time it happened, they wanted things to happen a certain way, and they didn't, so they now honestly remember things happening that certain way, instead of how they truly did, as they truly believe that to be the case now - that can include changing a parent from being cruel to being nice or vice versa, with them assigning the other role they don't have the parent being to another person, who may not have even been there at the time, or the PD is just switching the roles of the two.

One PD I know tells of how her folks, divorced, lived in different states; her mom decided to have her ears pierced, but her dad would remove them when she went to visit him, allowing the holes to heal before she returned to mom. Her mom would then have her ears re-pierced and, again, her dad would remove the earrings and have the holes heal. She said this went on, over and over again, over a long period of time. Thing is, there is no scar tissue on her ears. There is no sign she ever had it done more than once, and, because she has worn heavy, dangling earrings at times, her holes have even been able to stretch downward, so they are now more of lines than holes, something that would be difficult to do, had there been scar tissue there. Could it be her dad did remove earrings once, but only once? Could it be the holes did not actually heal before mom merely put earrings back in again? Could it even be she simply overheard an argument between mom and dad about the earrings, with dad complaining mom did that without talking with him first, maybe even threatening to remove them but never actually did (or did, just to clean them/her ears as should be done, and then replaced them), and the PD now has altered the story to make it more dramatic, because this PD likes drama and to be the victim and center of the story? Yes to all of that and more options to the story. What is the real truth? No one will likely ever know.... (This is only one such story of her childhood she tells that does not fully add up, and asking questions of it does not really lead to answers, but to red flags pointing to her version containing lies, or at least skewed truth.)

It is very difficult, with a PD, to know what is real and what is not in their stories of memories....

It is weird how some, and not just in PDs, seem to want to replicate what their parent did, even as they have made it clear they didn't appreciate how that parent acted on the very same thing. Xwh and his sibling figure their dad had an A, and know who that person is; xwh condemned that and was very upset by the idea, and he didn't even know until his dad had died, with his mom long gone. Still, that didn't stop xwh from also having his own As.... Weirder still, and more PD-acting, xwh seemed to think his kid's lives should mimic his own childhood experience, in that, his mom died just before he went to college, so she was out of the picture for his life - he left us just as our oldest, his obvious favorite of the three, was getting ready for college, and also proceeded to act as though I should just step away and leave him and the kids, just disappear.....(then tried to force that upon me, with trying, hard, to convince me and others I was insane or had a PD myself, then, with that failing, with trying to have me jailed.....) It was super bizarre, and especially since xwh has always been so saddened by that he no longer had a mom, and blamed that on his dysfunctional (out of guilt/obligation) way of relating to his FOO that was left that he knew, deep down inside, was not right/healthy. Just strange he would seem to want his own kids to go through the same things, knowing/believing it had messed him up. Personally, I would want better for my kids, not the same.

There is a theory I have read about traumatic bonding that semi-explains these almost idolized relationships some people have with their parents.

Or maybe they are like automatons, whose lives run on internalized scripts due to their skewed brain wiring, so they don’t seem to use their own free will as they should...and wouldn’t that dovetail with the spiritual concept of a family curse? Something they act out, that originated outside of themselves and yet seems to control their decision-making process. Deep stuff.

One author I read talking about trauma bonding said it is hard to break out of it, without them delving into their walled-off trauma, and re-experiencing it in a safe environment, so they can mentally detach from the person to whom they were “glued” by the trauma.

My WS did not originally want to admit anything bad ever happened to him from a family member. It took a lot of time before he broke through his denial about that. But he still holds that his father was “the good guy” even though his grandfather and his mother abused him sexually. I think he has to protect somebody in his family, to avoid feelings of total abandonment, yet the stories he sometimes tells about his father’s behavior during his childhood, make me wonder how “good” his father actually was to him. His father did leave him an inheritance, so that is better than some kids ever get.

My family memories were helped by a grandmother’s lifetime daily diaries, and after my father died I got curious about reading them. I so wish I had done that years ago when she gave them to me before she died. Lots of questions answered but a few more big ones I found, now will never be able to sort out. Like the fact that she went back in 1946 and re-wrote about 5 previos years’ daily entries! I hadn’t caught that until I saw each book from like 1939 on had the calendar for 1946 on the frontispiece. Maybe they just got wet or something and she transcribed them over....

I survived 2 years of in house separation. Nothing can happen during an arrangement like this. I went into survival mode and shut down.

Now that he’s gone, everything is hitting me at once. But for the first time, I feel the strength to fight for myself and my kids.

Just wondering people’s thoughts on narcissists. Do you think some are generally as stupid as they seem (the “I didn’t know what I was doing” routine), or is it all manipulation because they know how to push our empathy buttons?

Truly NPDs?

Pure manipulation.

The thought of that is so frightening, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if I should just believe that he's dumb in order to keep myself moving forward through the divorce.