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Oh Shattered...mine said something akin to this as well:

A few months ago she said something that still stays with me, that she thinks she was in limerance *with me* for the six years we were together.

He said, after months of IC, that perhaps our entire relationship was a "fantasy" for him - akin to the same type of fantasy of an A - no different. Once I had lived here for awhile (we did not live together for the first 6 years) then the fantasy bubble burst and he started devaluing me and not appreciating all the things he used to. Then the AP started pursuing him (which she did at the beginning) and that fantasy came into being and I was just real - and real wasn't so great.

The only "good news" for me out of that whole concept was that, if indeed that is the case (and yeah, I believe there is at least some truth to it), that he has never had a real relationship in his whole life, and from objective standards, his life is about half over...what a sad way to live.

I was still a girl and I'd dream about love but I was sure men wouldn't like women who wouldn't rely on them much. I read this book when I was young about how people have a need to be needed. I guess it made such an impact that I took it to heart until I was older. I just knew I would frustrate anyone.

It is nice to be needed, but when it only flows one way (as in, only one side contributes and the other demands), it becomes a burden. And when it's a burden, you get burned out. The thing that I valued most wasn't being needed, it was reciprocity. I wanted a true partnership. "You help, I help, we help together. We stand alone together, Currahee!"

Your AP sounds like my WW, and your WH sounds like my AP. One day both of these men may get burned out with the demands of their new women.

Unless if you're going out of the way to stop your WH from helping you with anything or excluding them from decisions (e.g. not treating them like your partner), I don't really see being independent as a problem!

I would probably break down in tears if my future SO just helped me with day-to-day responsibilities without being asked, especially if I was feeling overwhelmed. In MC, WW told me I should not expect things she was not used to doing. An example is doing laundry by herself.

I wish WW was more independent. She mistook that as me not wanting to be with her, e.g. "if Im not going to X with my SO, then why am I with them?". There were times I quite felt literally a slave and I needed my alone time. But like you, I still struggle with regret that I didn't work hard enough...maybe I should've been more outgoing, maybe I should've gone to that X thing she wanted me to join her on. The guilt can be staggering because I DID want her very much...but I know it in my heart that our relationship was very one sided, and it was one thing that made me unhappy....and despite it, I didn't cheat!

Once she was talking to an older female friend that I was trying to encourage her to drive so she can drive herself to wherever she wanted to go, and wouldn't need me as much. Her friend said I should be happy to drive her all the time because WW is giving me sex. It was such a horrible thing to hear (and a bit sexist, on several levels, IMO). I don't want to reduce my WW down to that's all she contributes. I value my time and not having to drop what I'm doing so I can drive an hour to go pick her up is worth more to me than a bucket of gold.

When telling her other people we knew would not tolerate her demands, she'd often quip "that's why I'm not dating them".

Now that I'm broken (his doing!), he doesn't want me anymore.

I'm on the flip side of that. I freely admitted I "checked" out and became "Dr. No" to WW, but it wasn't because I stopped loving her, it was because she wore me out and was actively sleeping with another man. To borrow a phrase - Now that I'm broken (her doing!), she doesn't want me anymore, she wants another man who will give into all her demands and attends to her needs.

It sucks so much the boat we're in.

And one thing I worry about for any future relationship, is a lot of women out there might be like her where they expect the man to do everything because "he needs to feel needed". That sounds like a sure way to an early grave and IMO is not a healthy attitude. I cannot do that again. I want to be a partner, not a parent!

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 10:46 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

Oh Shattered...mine said something akin to this as well:

A few months ago she said something that still stays with me, that she thinks she was in limerance *with me* for the six years we were together.

He said, after months of IC, that perhaps our entire relationship was a "fantasy" for him - akin to the same type of fantasy of an A - no different. Once I had lived here for awhile (we did not live together for the first 6 years) then the fantasy bubble burst and he started devaluing me and not appreciating all the things he used to. Then the AP started pursuing him (which she did at the beginning) and that fantasy came into being and I was just real - and real wasn't so great.

The only "good news" for me out of that whole concept was that, if indeed that is the case (and yeah, I believe there is at least some truth to it), that he has never had a real relationship in his whole life, and from objective standards, his life is about half over...what a sad way to live.

Jeebus. Another thing to fear with future relationships. WW and I moved very fast in living together and getting engaged. I bet she would have the same "fantasy bubble burst" if we instead did something like what you're describing. She has admitted that she misses her "dating life" in the sense that, she enjoyed going out and the romance and such. But that isn't real life. There are no responsibilities in that world.

Adjusting to living together is perhaps one of the biggest aspects of relationships, especially if the people come from different backgrounds. My dad loves to quote the book "I'm okay, you're okay", how we want to act like how we were raised. You leave mayo out because you might go back for a second sandwhich, I was told to put the mayo back immediately...thus FRICTION! And a key to a peaceful life is then, don't sweat the small stuff.

I feel like what I want isn't fantasy, it's an "old shoe" lol. I value stability, and not living together/only dating just feels unsecure to me. I want to be in a household like the one I grew up in. Everyone's doing something, but at the end of the day we come together and share our experiences or help each other because we're a family. I wanted to continue that, but as an adult, that means then I have to front the responsibilities (and so would the other SO)...and I don't mind that at all.

It is sad the partners we picked, did

...wow out of left field.

WW came home last night and surprised me. I didn't have my phone around me so I didn't see her advanced warning message. I was in my home office still working. She intended to stay the night and didn't communicate a good reason why she came. It was an OK evening, we talked a lot. Talked about moving and dividing up furniture too.

They didn't have a fight. Instead the opposite as this morning they became "Facebook official". I only know because someone messaged me asking if I was okay. WW was already blocked, so I wouldn't have seen it.

She finally admitted she basically wanted to see me before "making a decision". She's wracked with guilt and still misses me but doesn't know how to make things right without giving him up. She wanted to have a "nice evening with me" because she's confused and unsure.

But she's been making that decision for several months now. And even if she came back I wouldn't take her as is without her doing a lot of introspection. I kept pressing her why now.

I'm a mess right now. Why the hell would she pull this right before valentine's day. I barely was talking to her since Saturday.

She's a cruel monster. I should've asked for her key back before she left for work.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 9:41 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]

Shattered,

Be careful with that. Don't let her become your Hopium dealer. This wishy washy shit is for the birds. My ex pulled that at Year 3. Year 6. Year 10. The relationship would hit the rocks, then she'd "come around" and we'd be fine for a while. I was also dealing with a hopelessly narcissistic slughead, so don't let me project my own situation on yours, but still...really think this through. I'm all for reconciliation and work to not be so damn cynical, but at the same time, when someone shows you the type of person they are, believe them. When a relationship proves to be toxic such that it leads to cheating, or worse, recognize it.

When people talk about "setting boundaries", the very first thing that should entail is deciding what is and is NOT acceptable behavior from a person who claims to "love" you. After that, you've gotta hold that person's feet to the fire and ensure they match words with actions, otherwise you're just prolonging the inevitable.

What a day for the site to be down too.

I told her what's the point in "having a nice night with me" if she goes back to him the next. There was no talk of R or anything between us. This isn't hopium. I don't know what she is expecting to achieve other than breaking me more with her own increasingly perverse inability to let go.

I just feel drained. Seeing her and watching her go is like losing her all over again.

Edit: I ended up pressing her for some answers. She apologized and said it was a mistake to come with how emotionally devastating it was to me.

I asked her about R if she is saying she's confused and still missing me. She said that she cannot make promises as she keeps breaking them. She cannot be with me and remain faithful. She said maybe she should be single and find a therapist -- to which I said why don't you and she hemmed and hawed a bit lol. I don't think that woman can go for several days without sex, she wouldn't. She's addicted to romance.

At times she seemed a little annoyed at how emotional this got me. There are so many things she just doesn't get. Or maybe it's a selfish thing, after all she came over because she's missing me? Well what about my reaction? Again, what was she expecting?

Also this is made feel like we love very differently. I don't really like the term falling out of love, I think if it's easy to do that you were never really in it to begun with. Or at least, the love I have is a lasting one. I bet if I went to war in WW2 I'd be excited to see her coming home after a few years only to get a dear John letter saying she couldn't wait.

Whatever psychological or chemical processes involved, she became family to me, like the family I was born into. With her, I never graduated from boyfriend / the guy she was currently with. It wasn't a lasting love.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 8:30 AM, February 14th (Friday)]

Shattered, I'm sorry she pulled this on you but I'm glad to know that you're not letting your heart rule your mind. I'm a firm believer of second chances, but some people just aren't earning it.

On the positive side, at least she's honest that she cannot really let go of the OM (and proven it many times over as you shared). That tells a lot about how your lives will go moving forward.

One comment on my original JFO thread was about letting my WH go as definitively as I can to find if he has the courage and strength to come back to me. If he ever does, I might find I can't take him back anyway. I'd go to find the exact words and who said it, but anyway, just want to share to you the same thing. It's not about hoping someday they'd come back, but completely cutting the cord and moving on regardless of whatever they decide to do. It's up to you to finally put an end to this love triangle trap, easier said than done, but you'll get to it.

One comment on my original JFO thread was about letting my WH go as definitively as I can to find if he has the courage and strength to come back to me. If he ever does, I might find I can't take him back anyway

Thanks hopeful. What you wrote here has been in the back of my mind for a long time. I was always a bit scared that day might come and I didn't want her back. I am a little glad she was honest about what said about promises/faithful. It's an odd feeling, but it hurts a little less that she has some self awareness of her flaws and she still cares about me somewhat?

TBH I don't know how things would be different if my heart ruled my mind. In a way, she's the one putting an end to the love triangle. Although I told her if I found a new place I really liked, I'd have already moved. Despite everything, I'm still comfortable where I live and the idea of uprooting my life and moving to a tiny shack just to "get away from her" does not sound appetizing. But I have and will continue to put distance...so often in the past few months she's made it clear that if she could, she would've wanted to keep me as a "chat buddy"/friend (like she did with her AP way back when) and I just cannot do that.

He said, after months of IC, that perhaps our entire relationship was a "fantasy" for him - akin to the same type of fantasy of an A - no different.

Mine said maybe we're just comfortable with each other. Yes, cause we're freakin married why should we not be. He took the comfort as a sign of not being in love. Or maybe just another one of his sugarcoating. A fancy way of saying I'm no longer in love with you.

I wish WW was more independent. She mistook that as me not wanting to be with her e.g. "if Im not going to X with my SO, then why am I with them?".

He probably took my independence as me not wanting to be with him e.g. Should I fetch you? It's okay, I can take the bus". When in reality, I just don't want him even more tired by going out of his way when it's something I can manage. I've learned to rely on him after being together for years, then he met AP and she relied on him so easily. In contrast to my example, AP would ask him to fetch her even if it kills him (he told me that). I'm sure AP has her good points so she was chosen. I'm not perfect, but if he wanted more from me he could have just said so instead of cheating. He never gave our marriage a chance especially since he cheated so early.

It's an odd feeling, but it hurts a little less that she has some self awareness of her flaws and she still cares about me somewhat?

I totally get this. It's probably the most painful thing I'm dealing with. My WH seems to be in a bliss and totally just forgot about me.

so often in the past few months she's made it clear that if she could, she would've wanted to keep me as a "chat buddy"/friend (like she did with her AP way back when) and I just cannot do that.

She has commitment issues among many other issues and I cant help but wonder how the OM is okay with this I'm proud of you saying you can't do that. You do not deserve to be treated that way. You deserve to heal from this crap.

She has commitment issues among many other issues and I cant help but wonder how the OM is okay with this I'm proud of you saying you can't do that. You do not deserve to be treated that way. You deserve to heal from this crap.

I know right? I wonder that myself too. I now he isn't okay with it, but I don't think he gets into fights with her about it. We got into fights as I did not like what I was seeing and made it very plain. I sometimes feel like that caused her to gravitate to him because of negative association with me.

I also found out that on Saturday he deposited her at the driveway of the condo development, and not by the front door (it's one of the furthest back units) so she had to walk all the way. He was afraid I might see him and come out after him. I was glad to hear it. He should be afraid

I totally get this. It's probably the most painful thing I'm dealing with. My WH seems to be in a bliss and totally just forgot about me.

:( does me calling him a total maroon help any? The time and effort we put into these relationships, on top of the emotional connection, feeling like "we've been forgotten" is just such a debilitating feeling.

It's also boggling his logic of being too comfortable in the marriage. Hopefully he got his wish and isn't comfortable, and remains so.

In contrast to my example, AP would ask him to fetch her even if it kills him (he told me that)

Yep, WW is your AP. I would not feel slighted at all if you told me you're going to take a bus and don't need me to drive you. Bring out the champagne!!

The funny thing is that would motivate me to do something else. You'd have been welcomed home with a home cooked meal on many days then. Maybe that's your whole plan on not tiring your SO out with stuff you should be doing yourself? It certainly wasn't WW's master plan. I felt stretched thin at times.

We live in an area where you need to drive. She's originally from NYC and I don't think has gotten over it -- when we first met she literally lived next to her office, but still relied on others for rides for other things. We moved to the current location because of my 100 mile roundtrip hellish commutes from where she lived. The only problem though is the train schedule is bad up here...so often she'd have anxiety just catching the train on time after an evening event (most of the things she did after-work were still in the same area of her work). There were times she did make an effort to not have to ask me to fetch her...but it feels like she resented me for it, so it wasn't exactly a win.

So much could have been avoided if she just developed confidence to drive herself. It wasn't for a lack of trying (my dad and I helped her get her license and practice). She could leave when she wanted to, go anywhere she wanted to.

I would tell her, what about kids? Our kid is sick and needs to be picked up? Our kid needs to go to baseball practice? You won't be able to do any of that. It was always a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" and it never came.

Not to keep droning on, but she actually raised this same topic when we were talking the other night. One of her coworker friends (the wife, who is chinese and values education) is trying to get their daughter into a special school (kindergarten level, it sounded like a "school for the gifted" type thing) that has a lottery, they won it but realized there would be a transportation issue - there isn't a bus. No one seems to available - or wants to - to do the driving, and her H and MIL don't seem to care if she goes to this school or just go to regular public school.

WW comes from a background that highly values education and made a comment that she would be upset if "her husband" (I noted she said it generically ) wouldn't care about the school or didn't want to do the driving. I literally laughed out loud and said what about you with not driving. She sheepishly said that she'd start then.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 11:16 AM, February 15th (Saturday)]

I sometimes feel like that caused her to gravitate to him because of negative association with me.

Same. I told him that he couldn't take me at my worst, a 'worst' he caused. His family said it was easier to start over and redeem himself with the AP. True, but we could have at least separated properly and not traumatized me even further with the false R. The ability of these people to just lie and lie are beyond me.

I remember him telling his best friend that I'd be okay because "I'm strong" :( those words crushed me, still crushes me. Never should have been a license to hurt me.

Damn, the bubble of emotions popped. All because I heard Pink's song Where We Go. Took a lot of energy to not break down while out, the moment I closed my bedroom door I started bawling my eyes out. Haha funny how the song makes me so depressed and thrilled at the same time.

(((hopeful)))

I feel like her way of saying I'm strong is that I will "find someone better and forget about her". Whenever I hear her say that my heart breaks a little bit more.

I've been keeping myself busy the past few days to try and keep my mind off of her. Only surrounding myself with inspirational and uplifting music. For me, that means mostly orchestral and movie scores...I may have busted my finger with how fast I turn off the radio whenever love songs came up for v-day....

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 12:23 PM, February 17th (Monday)]

I was on spotify shuffle when it played. This song used to have a very different meaning to me, like about life in general and not specific to a partner. It's a good feeling though, being able to let out the pain through tears. It bothers me, not crying. It feels as if my body is putting unnecessary defenses when I do want to just let it flow and not skip over the grieving process.

Some trauma just stops you from normal responses. So when it comes I get a shock but feel somewhat cleansed afterwards.

Bah, they left because they suck and are broken.

There is no logic to it, we can all blame ourselves, could we have been better, sure, but they also could have been better.

We waffle between hating them and then hating ourselves for hating them to loving them and trying to see what we could have done differently.

If we take a look at the lopsided nature of it I am sure everyone here will feel that they did 60, 70, 80, 90% of the work in trying to fix it.

We picked crappy, we ignored the warning signs. Sure there are exceptions but all the stories I have read and my story itself there were red flags everywhere. We tossed them off the field and made excuses. They seemed logical, we loved them and trusted them so sure go do what you need to do babe.

its the endless cycle of trying to own something that is totally on our cheating spouse.

We can read it a million times, the made the choice to cheat and they did all the little steps to cheat on us.

if I could change it I would, but really knowing what I know now I see that it was the only way for all of us to move on.

I remember shortly after I started dating my exe I had to go to the emergency room for a searing pain in my stomach. They couldn't figure it out, I ended up getting a colonoscopy which came back clear. No problems just this inexplicable pain in my gut. Looking back, was it the universe trying to warn me. Maybe. The doctors still had no idea what caused it and I have been tested for a few years after the event.

No reoccurrence. Maybe I am grasping but I look back at all the things that happened and it was destined to end and I was destined to be here right now.

I know the pain of being left, I know the heartache of writing on this board when my heart broke on mistress day and valentines day. I know the pain of wanting to hear from them and the pain of secretly hoping the email notification I get is from them, it never is because she is gone.

I took a walk tonight with the dog, I am in the desert looking at the star filled sky, Orion staring down at me like he always does. I felt small in the world and alone with the noise of the dog by my side. I felt a peace about it all and I once again forgave my exe. She left me because she had to, she left me because she wanted to and she left me because it was over.

i am here, along with all of you and know that I am not close to acceptance but I and we are closer than we were yesterday.

Love yourself, heal yourself and accept yourself. We are flawed and we aren't perfect and we made mistakes but we can't control others, we can only control ourselves.

Our relationship is over and it sucks, but looking back, does it really suck or do we know in our heart of hearts that it really wasn't working and it really is best that they left so we can become the people we want to be not the person we were with them?

[This message edited by sorryforeverythi at 9:02 PM, February 17th (Monday)]

i am here, along with all of you and know that I am not close to acceptance but I and we are closer than we were yesterday

I like what you said here. Even if it doesn't seem that way especially when we take steps back, but it's true, we move towards healing daily.

Everything that happened in the past 8 months could have been 8 years with how much has changed. Time is relative, even in emotional aspect.

8 months ago feels like a lifetime to me too.

That was 2019's dday (June). One week after my grandfather died, she told me they resumed the PA since January. What a freaking blow.

The AP's father died that week oddly enough. I later would find messages she wrote someone on how she felt an outpouring of affection for the AP, but felt very little for me for my grandfather.

At the time she was undecided about going to the funeral and I told her she didn't have to come (she would have had to take 2 days off). I sometimes wonder if she would have felt so cold the next week if she came and saw how much I sobbed while I was there.

It hurts to think how cruel she can be. You wouldn't believe it looking at her.

It's funny what reminds me of my ex these days. I don't get emotionally triggered, but I do get the brief memory flash with possible Fridge Logic realization. I'm running a half marathon in a few months and I keep getting reminded of the secret 5/10k she did with her uggo AP that I briefly learned about on the DDay snoop but didn't recognize what I'd discovered until months later. I'll be writing my training plan and suddenly think, "Where did she shower after that run? His house? Did they fuck? Yeah, probably." Then I'll move past it feeling not very different, but the thought was unavoidable. DDay was 17 months ago. I'm in a very good place, and compared to even just month 3 I'm on Cloud 9, but even now I can't escape this shit.

It's a scar they leave deep inside your brain. You can stop it from bleeding once and for all, but that scar tissue lasts forever and it affects us all differently. It made me a much stronger person in just about every way, but it took away my will to fully trust another romantic partner ever again. That in itself is probably another tally on the "Stronger" list, but I miss being naive. And some people go through this shit and become cynical, then meet someone else and sink back into naivete. I can't help but feel sorry for those people, like I'm watching a drunk fall back off the wagon after 5 years sober and get behind the wheel of a car. But the scary part to me is I fear I'd do the same if I met the right woman. Thanks but no thanks.

Oh, and please, don't love these people. They left you. They don't care about you anymore. And if they suddenly do again, you've already seen how much their love for you is worth. Fuck these clowns, find someone much better.

I'm a mess right now. Why the hell would she pull this right before valentine's day. I barely was talking to her since Saturday.

That’s what contact gets you.

Unless you fix that you’ll stay in the hopium daze.

No Contact is up to you. It only works if you fully apply it

As I've posted here many times I thought others might get a kick out of this.

My EWW has had a falling out with her father as she doesn't like his new wife (he was widowed several years ago).

Thought that was rich...I don't like her new husband...lol.

They haven't talked in over 6 months so he has reached out to me over the last few holidays to see his grandson.

No problem, always liked him...understood why there wasn't any real communication after she left. I let him know he can see him anytime he wants while he is with me.

So out of the blue, he has asked us to join him overseas for a vacation...hehe.

That will start a sh*t show, but it wouldn't be the first vacation with him, but first without his daughter involved.

I got a kick out of it, but more because It says alot of how he feels about me as a good father and how it shows respect. Yes he likes to see his grandson, buy an invite for both of us to Europe means a lot to me.

Slightly awkward, I suppose but now all we need is for her to sign the papers for us to travel.....that will be interesting.

Funny thing is, we moved here to be closer to her family and now she doesn't talk to any of them!!