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Oh Sigyn, I cringed when I read about the flowers and chocolates too. When I was 16, flowers and chocolate were the height of romance and sophistication. A grown man thinking that's how he can save a marriage that he consciously eviscerated is just beyond belief.

It's interesting that as a society we esteem the "golden rule" because it's about treating others how WE want to be treated. It's more meaningful to treat others how THEY want to be treated. That is truly loving another person . . . to be curious about their desires and by feeling joy when we do something for them. If it's about us, then we're missing the point.

Quick mostly shitty update...

In March WH moved out of the apartment and into his rental house but in retrospect I can see that almost immediately he started to resent being there and started taking this out on me and tangentially my family as well. He started insinuating that I was somehow 'scamming' him (he used that word to me and my family, and his attorney used it in an email to my attorney) and his attorney started flooding mine with all kinds of demands and requests. This led to the most incredibly awful breakdown on WH's part that I'm still trying to process.

It started with WH peppering me and my family with texts about my solo vacation. Before I left he actually accused me of going away with another man (?@?!?), texted my family and asked them if they knew 'the man' I was going away with, and then asked if he could come over to pick up some things for his house and when he got here he took two steps in the front door and had a meltdown, like a real, sobbing, wailing, angry, accusation filled meltdown! He literally asked me word for word the same questions I had been asking him right after I discovered his affairs! "I don't want to know what you did, just tell me WHY you did it to us?" <-- that was HIM asking ME! I was absolutely gobsmacked! Do you know that he NEVER really answered that question in all the months I was hyperfixated on it? And then he stood there asking me and crying REAL TEARS, sobbing actually, and repeating all of the questions I asked him in the hellscape of that first month? And he had all of this emotion that he never showed at all for me, my pain, our marriage dissolving.

I can't even remember all of it, it was so ugly and when he finally left I was such a ball of anxiety I wanted to crawl out of my own skin and cancel my trip, just the thought of him attaching his own gross sex life to what was supposed to be a healing vacation for me... it just felt tainted, like he'd ruined it for me, like there was no way not to carry those feelings inside me there. And the fact that he was saying I was scamming him, that HE is a victim! I just wanted to vomit.

So once again my family and friends are treated to another grotesque drama, and once again they helped talk me back down and helped me start to straighten out the tangle of emotions. He gets it in his head he's being scammed and that I'm taking a vacation with another man, and suddenly his world is falling apart. That's where his priorities are. That's where his emotions are invested. Him him him him him. And also the DARVO thing some of you pointed out before. The reverse Uno card in which he goes from the man who destroyed our marriage to the victim of an evil wife 'scamming' him and taking a romantic vacation with another man while he sits in his blank walled rental home, weeping. I can but also absolutely cannot believe he is actually pretending to be a victim. Of ME no less. He can't describe what he thinks I'm 'scamming' him about (it has something to do with the house, the scam part) and he also can't explain why he would think I was traveling with another man - my sister says he knows I wasn't, that he just made that up, but I do know his emotional meltdown was completely real. He was threatening to hire a private detective, which is just so... gah it's all so gross. It makes ME feel gross.

Anyway, I did go on my trip, I did see the northern lights and I want to say it was transformative, but I did a lot of crying and I feel like WH just ruined what could have been a healing break. Maybe that's why he timed his meltdown that way. I had one good night where I felt peaceful, though. And I started writing WH a letter that I'm not sure if I'll ever give him. Part of it is logical and part is defensive and part is snarky and angry and insulting, but I just need to see or hear myself respond to this even if WH is incapable of really hearing or understanding it. I feel like I lost so much of myself with him. I have this need to express myself, my REAL self, not the woman I was when I was trying to compromise half of my personality away to keep things so smooth for us. I want to be my real self when I communicate to him, all of myself, not the small pieces that he knows. But it's such a habit when he's in front of me to swallow the parts that I've been swallowing for decades. I see him and half of me just curls up in a back room of my mind and heart out of habit. I don't know how to be myself with him. In part, that's what I wanted from my vacation was to see if I could be more of me in an unfamiliar place, and bring more of myself back home to engage in what I now know will be my divorce. I want to divorce him as ME, the real whole me. But then he showed up, had his meltdown, twisted everything until it was unrecognizable and I ended up spending half my vacation writing angry responses to him and crying instead.

Well despite the vacation being something of a failure, my therapist wants me to look at it as a beacon showing me the way forward, because it allowed me to articulate to myself that I want to show up in the world as my whole self, and that I could not be my whole self with WH. I already knew that in a way, but also the pain I felt on vacation was completely centered around my desire to be completely me and WH thwarting that goal. Even if no one else in the world wants me to be my whole self, I need me to be. Maybe WH's meltdown was in reaction to seeing the real me trying to come out, and everything inside of him is threatened by that. He makes up a 'scam' and a sleazy affair to put a face or name to the boogeyman that is actually just me being a lot larger than the woman he was married to? Or to shock and guilt me into backing down and being small for him again? I don't know. It's empowering to think that way, so I don't know if I'm fooling myself just to feel empowered, or if that might really be what's happening?

I don't really have a compelling ending to this, sorry. Just writing about it kind of put me back in that emotional place again so I feel pretty lost.

Any words of wisdom are so welcome, if anyone reads this and can relate.

Please don't give him that letter. Even though it was to him, it was for you. He doesn't deserve to know that you spent one second of your precious time dealing with his theatrics. If you ever let him come over again without an audience (and I suggest you do not) make sure you are recording the entire production, so that you can look back and pick apart the many ways he tries to gaslight and manipulate you.

I'm glad you went on your trip. I'm sorry it was tainted. Let this be the last thing he takes from you.

UGH. I am just so angry for you, that he pulled this insane crap before your trip and took away your healing mindset and once again made himself the center of the drama. Maybe this was to be expected, some sort of epic meltdown, because he has been so spectacularly oblivious and self centered all along, and has set himself up for a major reality jolt of his own. The preposterous accusations that you are cheating are not the least bit original from the stories I have read here. People who can't be trusted can't trust easily either. This is all his problem, and not yours. I hope you didn't waste too much of yourself in defense of the absurd accusations.

I wish I had better advice for self protection, but the best I can come up with is having your lawyer instruct his lawyer that any further abusive, unhinged theatrics will be dealt with via restraining orders. He has to be controlled or managed by something or some threat that is not related to you. He has no idea how much he has hurt you, or how much he is continuing to hurt you. I hope your lawyer can fire a few warning shots and make him check his selfish antics, and ensure that you do not have to endure any further meetings without a witness present.

I hope he is not being a manipulative pitiful idiot with your son. I hope he has the sense to man up and be the parent he needs to be for the sake of your son. But he has failed to man up and be the person, friend or spouse you need him to be, and he is not looking like a candidate for change. I am so sorry for all he has put you through and continues to put you through. If nothing else, I hope his theatrics have helped you remain steadfast in your decisions, and removed any second thoughts you may have about the course your life needs to take now. Please protect yourself as best you can, and know that even though he has let you down spectacularly, you have risen to the moment and have done your very best for yourself and your son.

I imagine you are reaching the point in this drama where you just want it to be over, to make the pain stop. There is no way, none, he could ever make amends for all the pain he has given you and all the wrong he has done to you in his self centered brokenness. He has not broken you. I think your therapist is right, he is shining a beacon on the way forward, and ensuring that there is no place in your authentic life for someone like him. I hope all your support systems are in place, and I hope you can find the least painful path forward through this mess. Best to you, and thanks for checking in. I was just wondering how your trip went and am again, so sorry to hear the update. I hope you start planning the next therapeutic healing adventure, maybe with your son, or a sister or a friend, to get that reset you were hoping for. Take care, and vent here anytime. We hear you.

Edited to add, I'm glad the northern lights showed up for you.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 7:44 PM, Saturday, April 8th]

His epic meltdown occurred because he has lost control. Of you.

And THAT is the one thing he cannot change or control. He has lost out in the one thing he counted in — always being in control of you.

Good for you for standing up for yourself. I think that trip was monumental in many ways — but in some way it sent the cheater a message. One he wasn’t prepared to receive.

This is the greatest challenge in dealing with personalities like your WH. Their behaviors and thinkings are incredibly simple - yet simultaneously incomprehensible. And that’s what makes US feel insane in response. The key is to dumb it down to the most basic level…and then accept that that is as deep as it goes.

What your WH has demonstrated in full color and Dolby surround is his profound inability to feel any empathy. Full stop. That aspect will never make any sense. It just is what it is…and the interaction serves no purpose for you other than to reinforce the notion - not explain it.

You can assign all kinds of motives to his behavior…but I doubt seriously if he has that depth. What you witnessed is the proverbial "shoe on the other foot"…and his complete inability to draw any correlations between what you have actually experienced and what he is experiencing through simply his beliefs. He sees NO correlation between the two because THAT is the root problem. And while experience is often a teacher and antagonist for self-awareness for even "normal" humans, your WH’s inability to draw that correlation is where the REAL tell is. This is how he views and experiences the world - in everything, all day, every day. He’s SO unaware and entitled that he actually views himself as your victim - with not an ounce of him questioning if he was the catalyst or perhaps even deserving.

The good news - if there is any in this - is your WH seemingly demonstrates a low skill level in his narcissism. (Higher level narcs would recognize - not feel - what is a more appropriate societal response and portray themselves accordingly.). This can also be witnessed in his (online) bragging about his methods. (Higher level narcs would never give up the methods.). Unfortunately it also means that his behaviors are going to be more flamboyant and over the top. The best approach is to EXPECT this out of him - and he soon enough just becomes a boring cliche. It’s simple and simultaneously incomprehensible. Accept both parts of this. In a nutshell, some people are just really fucked up. So fucked up that they are clueless to it.

Helping your son navigate this throughout his growing years is where your biggest challenge lies - and that’s a marathon not a sprint. Your energy and effort needs to be saved for him - because, unlike you, he has no baseline that contradicts his father’s behavior. And once your WH really does lose his influence and ability to control you directly, I would expect him to zero in on your son.

Find your momma bear and get her in training. ❤️

Fuck him.

Aargh Sigyn. These latest developments suck on so many levels. Shows the manipulation he's capable of, and could be a harbinger of more desperate ploys to come. Don't share the letter with him. That letter is for YOU. Of course you want him to UNDERSTAND and ACKNOWLEDGE your feelings and to finally see the real you. But....He.Will.Never.Get.It. He can't see anyone else - it can't NOT be all about him. He can't feel empathy. Or really see you. He only knows how he SHOULD perform/respond in social situations - to get the result HE wants. You'd have more success asking your dog to crochet a doily!

And....you're proceeding with divorce. If recent behavior is any indication, supplying him with factual or emotional ammo to impugn (or attack!) should be avoided. Going forward seems prudent to grey rock him as much as possible. Minimal contact - kid and finances only. "Talk to my lawyer about that." No emotions he can weaponize! Maybe use a family scheduling app to communicate about your son? Put a stop to him coming into your home to "pick up a few things." Using that excuse as a ruse to force in person interaction could go on for MONTHS. Talk to your lawyer about ways to amicably get his things out ASAP. Set a deadline. Maybe your family can grey rock him as well? Why does he need to be in touch with them? If they were my family I'd encourage them to block him, or simply not respond to any communication from him - unless it's an emergency about your son AND you can't be reached. Especially ignore any blatant info fishing expeditions.

Before I left he actually accused me of going away with another man (?@?!?), texted my family and asked them if they knew 'the man' I was going away with.

He literally asked me word for word the same questions I had been asking him right after I discovered his affairs! "I don't want to know what you did, just tell me WHY you did it to us?"

Yes, this smacks of DARVO. Could be disordered thinking going on as well. I'm not a therapist BUT (my favorite SI disclaimer :-), your STBX (yes, STBX! Would it help to start referring to him as STBX?) exhibits behaviors/traits that could be indicative of several serious personality disorders. There's PROJECTION happening. Narcissistic projection?

"Narcissistic projection is a defense mechanism utilized by people with narcissistic tendencies in order to avoid feeling hurt and vulnerable. It involves attributing one's own negative thoughts and behaviors onto someone else"

Kudos for going on the planned trip after he pulled these emotionally manipulative stunts. No doubt his breakdown was real - but it was hyper focused on recasting his current destroyer role back into his comfy victim role; and ABSOLUTELY a manifestation of some obvious dysfunctions - whatever they may be. "Or to shock and guilt me into backing down and being small for him again?" Perhaps. Or, an effort to control the narrative in the only way he knows how. "Some people are just really fucked up." Indeed.

Sorry the trip wasn't what you'd imagined, but maybe it was just what you needed.

ETA:

Keeping in mind the theory of PROJECTION, pay attention to "Sigyn is scamming me" logic he's pulling out of his a**. If he accuses you of doing something, this could point to what HE is doing or thinking. Protect yourself.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 3:16 AM, Monday, April 10th]

His epic meltdown occurred because he has lost control. Of you.

Spot on

He knows your switches, knobs, and levers to manipulate you, or he did. But they’re not working like they did before, so he’s freaking. No longer Master of His Universe, now he’s at the end of the whip.

Great job, Sigyn. Keep fighting!

to open this up, i’d like to say that your self awareness is amazingly impressive. i’m sorry he pissed on your soul cleansing trip. don’t let his silly bullshit distract you, you’re taking the right steps in the right direction.. he’s just trying to put barricades in the path of you moving in the right direction.. a total and complete textbook narcissist. i got this sneaky feeling that he pulled that bullshit stunt on the chance that you might have something to admit. be careful what you say to him in private. i would treat private conversations with him as if you’re being recorded.

So glad you got to enjoy the Northern Lights. I'm in the camp that your STBXWH threw his little fit to get into your head and ruin your vacation. The reference about another man? Again to either get your goat or projection. (He can't imagine going on vacation without somebody else.)

Don't give him the journaling you did. He'd hand it to his lawyer and use your words against you.

So sorry that he's such a douche.

Hi Sigyn

I am sorry he is such a shithead. Of course he is the biggest victim in the world - narcs gotta narc. They get worse when they lose control, hence why post separation/exposure is a period of high risk. He was probably quite skilled at the game for a while, but since being exposed has started to come undone.

Two things narcs do you described in your post:

- projective identification - he is now your victim, and he is setting you up to behave as his abuser. Do not engage - it is a trap! He knows what he is doing. Do not send any letters. Have witnesses present. PI is why some victims end up being identified as the abuser, including by police and the legal system (in this case he is setting you up as a financial but also emotional abuser, but who knows what else - a crazy lady who cant be believed most likely)

- they say things back to you that you said earlier to them - as in, they use the exact words. It is a total mindf#ck. I dont know whether it is some kind of gaslighting, mirroring or echolalia. My ex will message me with content that sounds familiar, and lo and behold if I look back a few messages (from 2 years ago even), he has used my language and phrasing. I never noticed it when we were together because he never replied to my messages, but in hindsight he was copying me from the day we met. Now that he has lost control, he tries to find a hook to get back in to my head, and what better way than to repeat my own thoughts back to me- it is so obvious now, but I never saw it.

The demise of the narc reminds me of Carl's demise in Ghost - the screeching evil spirits dragging him away. My FW walks around like a zombie these days, although I dont know if that is also a performance to elicit sympathy since I only see him dropping my son off, or orchestrating reasons to be near the house.

All the best - stay strong!

Edit: I just had one more thought (about my own situation as well) - What does your husband want you to believe about yourself that will stop you from abandoning him (not just in body but in mind)? That is the hook that will keep you connected to him (since abandonment is his greatest fear). Until you work that out, you are vulnerable to him finding a way back in (not necessarily to continue the marriage, but to thwart your personal autonomy and growth, which seems to be where you are headed)

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 7:48 AM, Sunday, April 9th]

Oh, Sigyn, I’m so glad to see you check in and so sorry that your STBXWH continues to be. . .himself. Of all the threads on the boards right now, I find your thread full of the most wisdom—from you and from all those who were married to this particular variety of WH— and familiarity for me. As always, your insight and reactions in this situation are inspiring.

You’ve already gotten such spot on responses, including from your therapist and from yourself. What Vez from Taz said, over and over, point by point, is so amazingly spot on.

projective identification - he is now your victim, and he is setting you up to behave as his abuser.

Check. This was always his MO, right? Although maybe a bit lower key. I know making himself the victim has always been one of my WH’s favorite ways to turn attention (including his own) away from his own shittiness and make it someone else’s fault. During his A, mine got extremely fixated on a stay-at-home dad whose kid was friends with mine. He was so over the top with jealousy and suspicion. It takes some nerve to be abusive to your spouse over fantasy, projected sins when you’re in the middle of an actual affair and not see the hypocrisy, but as we’ve both learned, they’re just that good at this shit.

Several years after mine was caught, I finally took my wedding ring off and never put it back on. I left it sitting in the bathroom on a tray. It took my WH almost a month to notice it, and he lost it again. He actually slipped right back into thinking that he had a say in this, and that here were his grounds for righteous outrage. He brought out all the victim cards about how hurt he was at me making a unilateral decision, lol,. . .and like always, my feelings and why I’d taken the thing off in the first place had not even occurred to him. After he spent 5 minutes telling me how wounded he was over me doing this, I asked him if he had thought for a second how I might have felt before taking it off and why I felt that way. The blankness on his face is something I will never forget.

they say things back to you that you said earlier to them - as in, they use the exact words. It is a total mindf#ck. I dont know whether it is some kind of gaslighting, mirroring or echolalia. My ex will message me with content that sounds familiar, and lo and behold if I look back a few messages (from 2 years ago even), he has used my language and phrasing. I never noticed it when we were together because he never replied to my messages, but in hindsight he was copying me from the day we met. Now that he has lost control, he tries to find a hook to get back in to my head, and what better way than to repeat my own thoughts back to me

This one truly blew my mind, Vez. It’s weird how you can experience something but not really notice it as a thing until it’s verbalized for you. I see now too that my WH mimicked and mirrored so much since he didn’t know how to really be the things that he wanted to project. But after he was found out, he also didn’t know how to have the actual feelings of remorse and guilt and empathy that he was supposed to have. The only role that was worth playing, at that point, was victim because he needed to center himself at all times. . .but not in a negative way. Victim was where the sympathy was. Victim was what he thought would get things back to normal with people feeling sorry for him and deferring to him and trying to figure his poor fucked up mess out. He WILL NOT be the bad guy in his own novella.

The problem was that I was the ACTUAL victim in the situation, so I was again who he mirrored. This produced lovely scenes like the one where I told him in tears that it was terrifying to live with him because he was so unsafe for me, only to have him immediately say, and you’re not safe for ME. SMH.

Like your WH, Sigyn, he had ZERO sense that he was literally using your exact words. We just do not exist for them in anything like the way they exist so VIVIDLY for themselves. We are pale shadows passing through their world compared to how they see themselves.

This from truthsetmefree was another beacon to me:

What you witnessed is the proverbial "shoe on the other foot"…and his complete inability to draw any correlations between what you have actually experienced and what he is experiencing through simply his beliefs. He sees NO correlation between the two because THAT is the root problem. And while experience is often a teacher and antagonist for self-awareness for even "normal" humans, your WH’s inability to draw that correlation is where the REAL tell is. This is how he views and experiences the world - in everything, all day, every day. He’s SO unaware and entitled that he actually views himself as your victim - with not an ounce of him questioning if he was the catalyst or perhaps even deserving.

The good news - if there is any in this - is your WH seemingly demonstrates a low skill level in his narcissism. (Higher level narcs would recognize - not feel - what is a more appropriate societal response and portray themselves accordingly.). This can also be witnessed in his (online) bragging about his methods. (Higher level narcs would never give up the methods.)

I can’t tell you how much I LOVE being able to say that my WH (and yours, Sigyn) is an inept, low-skill narcissist. My WH thought he was such a masterful and clever liar (he also articulated his lying methodology). After discovery, he said that he was a monster which seemed a bit grandiose to me. I told him that he wasn’t anything so impressive as a monster. He was just a petty, spiteful, destructive child. I knew he’d much rather think of himself as a monster. Monsters are powerful, after all. God, they are so fucked up.

In a weird way, not at all in the way you wanted, you are ultimately getting what you asked for, Sigyn. Little by little he is having moments of meltdown that are revealing the real truth of him to you. It’s not what you hoped to get—the actual truth of what he did—but he would have to actually have some grasp on and access to the actual truth in order to deliver it to you. What you are getting is revelation of how disordered he is and what kind of thinking allowed him to do what he did to you, and enjoy the life that he set up for himself. Every petty, imagined slight on your part made him feel that he had a right to do what he was doing. Every time you put your finger on one of those personality traits that he tried so hard not to slip into view. Every time you tried to know him.

Hopefully your WH will not continue with this behavior, but everyone who is saying he might ramp up even more is correct. Keep your guard up and ask your attorney how to best react, as others have noted. And yes, sadly, I’ll reiterate that you should be most watchful where your son is concerned. I know you know this, but I also know that those buttons our waywards installed are very compelling. You may still be lulled into thinking that he will always protect your son. Just remember: if he knew anything about being a healthy human being, parent and role model, you wouldn’t be where you are right now. He will not understand at all that there is any substantive difference between his interests and your son’s. He will think that what’s good for him will automatically be good for your son.

You have been so generous in sharing your experiences and your journey here, Sigyn. This thread is like a public service, really, and you are an amazing role model for those looking for a way not to give themselves up trying to salvage things with an unremorseful wayward. I hope that it helps you half as much as you help others by collecting all of these voices in your thread.

Sending you huge hugs of support and love, my sister.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 7:15 PM, Sunday, April 9th]

I’m glad you updated, Sigyn, though I’m sorry for how your husband wrecked your vacation.

First wife is right. He’s lost control of you, and it’s sunk in that his world as he knew it is destroyed. He can’t face the fact that he destroyed it himself, so he twists it around and casts himself as the victim. And it sounds like he sincerely believes that. What a disordered and dangerous shell of a man.

Be all of your complete and total real, wonderful self, and give him none of that self. He doesn’t deserve it.

There is so much collective wisdom in these latest responses to you that all I’m going to write is what I think is his title. He is a Narcissistic Leech. His personality has gaping holes that he has tried to fill up with sexual behaviors, bragging to strangers online etc. That meltdown was a 3 year old temper tantrum. That is where his emotional maturity stopped.

You take care of you. No one can fix him. The less interactions you have the better.

I am so sorry to write about this on a happy day but you need to be VERY CAUTIOUS about poking this out of control bear. These rejected narcissists often kill the person rejecting them. Guard your child and yourself at all times.

The blankness on his face is something I will never forget.

This. OMG…this. It’s not so much the moments of this I remember, but more so the feeling it created in me. There were SO many moments that I watched him internally "dodge and weave"…his brain trying to work out every possibly scenario on the fly as he crafted his response - the wild animal caught in a cage.

But those were nothing compared to the blankness…the moments that I could witness that there was just no real person in there. Like the system had malfunctioned - and when it had, there was nothing but emptiness. Real, palpable nothingness. It’s still chilling. I had no idea that this existed anywhere in real life - despite all the horrific things that happen regularly that contradict that. I think we, as a society, tend to look for reasons when people do horrific things. There’s still a need to personify them…a need to still be able to relate to their humanity. It’s why we sometimes even look at the most honest expressions that occur in those off-guard, off-game moments - and we want to attribute some great motive…a manipulative, devious, well-designed, well-planned response to obtain a certain outcome. It’s a seductive siren that makes them still relatable. All too often when we realize we cannot relate to them as an adult or partner we are still entranced to then relate to them as a child.

But the blankness wrecks all those notions. It spoke to my soul - beyond what my head could comprehend. And it spoke in a language that I still cannot adequately translate. It’s why I say that it is all so simple and yet simultaneously incomprehensible.

He started insinuating that I was somehow 'scamming' him (he used that word to me and my family, and his attorney used it in an email to my attorney)

Hasn't he been scamming you for the duration of your marriage.

I think it's time to deliver that package from the basement to his attorney and that you do not want to hear another word about scamming.

Your husband is like a weed that needs a nice normal healthy garden to thrive on. Until he finds another plant and another garden he is going to keep growing back in your garden.
Anticipate similar roadblocks as you try to move on in your life until that happens. I guess the hope that he finds the next normal woman to latch onto is also unfair.

One would think he would be very busy with his debauchery now that he is free of you. But seems like it is no longer fun when it is not a dirty secret. He thrives on other peoples opinions: you respecting him, his girlfriends thinking he is cool that he can be married and yet continue this secret lifestyle. Now everything is shattered and no one thinks highly of him anymore. Such an insecure immature man with no self confidence whatsoever.

Be very vigilant of how he interacts and influences your little one. He is very capable of using his own son to get back at you.

I am still in awe of how mature you have been considering the really brutal circumstances. You have enough strength so I know there will be better days sooner or later. Hang in there.

NowWhat106 you pointed something out to me that I also hadnt realised - the Monster!. Ex would sometimes exclaim, apropos nothing very significant: "You are acting like I am some kind of Monster!" The Monster thing came up after we separated as well: "I am not some kind of MONSTER!". I was being abnormally calm and reasonable about the whole thing (like the well trained sucker I was) so it was over the top. You are spot on - it is their grandiosity rearing its ugly head. Everything is so extreme, and dramatic, and black and white (splitting, lack of object constancy - I did something bad, therefore I am bad, the baddest of all from the badlands). It also reflects their childish way of understanding human emotions, and morality - taken from comics and superhero movies.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 10:33 PM, Sunday, April 9th]

I keep coming back to this notion that you’re scamming him, because it’s so mind boggling. But I also think it’s a very telling window into just how very disordered and dangerous his psyche is. I mean, even if you were going with some man on a destination fling (not recommending that AT ALL; sounds like a terrible idea), but even then, how could you possibly be the scammer in this relationship?? He’s lived a whole other horrible sordid evil lying sham of a LIFE with you. But in his mind, even the thought of you vacationing with another man while you’re separated and on the way to divorce sends him off the deep end.

He is dangerously divorced from reality. It gives me cold chills, honestly. I don’t use the word dangerous lightly.

[This message edited by Grieving at 2:19 AM, Monday, April 10th]

Ugh I cannot tell you how much all of your wisdom and encouragement is helping me! I hate that so many of us have apparently been married to similar people but it's still mind blowing to me that not only is my WH this dysfunctional stranger but that other people have been longterm married to people just like him, also not knowing who they were! How is this even possible?

Please don't give him that letter. Even though it was to him, it was for you. He doesn't deserve to know that you spent one second of your precious time dealing with his theatrics.

For all of you who wrote something similar (and it's seemingly unanimous) - I won't give him the letters. I think it turned into a journaling exercise for me more than a real letter to him. I know this is hard to believe but there are still times that I automatically think of WH as the husband I knew. Like there's a way to explain how I feel and a way to contextualize his actions to him that will make him see himself the way I'm seeing him. And that he'll be ashamed and outraged at himself. I know this isn't true, but some days it really feels true, at least when I'm emotionally overwhelmed. It's hard to break the habit of my entire adult life of seeing him as my partner instead what he's become, which is someone actively harming me.

People who can't be trusted can't trust easily either. This is all his problem, and not yours. I hope you didn't waste too much of yourself in defense of the absurd accusations.

Agreed, and I think with more time and reading a lot of the responses here I'm coming down more on the side of believing that he actually didn't think I was seeing a man as much as he was manipulating me. Either to regain control, make himself appear to be a victim, pretending I was just as bad as him, setting up something for a future face-saving story, or whatever new atrocity is in my future.

And THAT is the one thing he cannot change or control. He has lost out in the one thing he counted in — always being in control of you.

I've seen this so much since this all started! I wouldn't have really thought of him as controlling before this, but if I put that label on a lot of his personality traits and our marriage dynamic over the years, it actually does fit. It was more subtle when we were "happy". Now that apparently his gloves are off, it's a lot more overt.

The good news - if there is any in this - is your WH seemingly demonstrates a low skill level in his narcissism. (Higher level narcs would recognize - not feel - what is a more appropriate societal response and portray themselves accordingly.). This can also be witnessed in his (online) bragging about his methods. (Higher level narcs would never give up the methods.). Unfortunately it also means that his behaviors are going to be more flamboyant and over the top. The best approach is to EXPECT this out of him - and he soon enough just becomes a boring cliche. It’s simple and simultaneously incomprehensible. Accept both parts of this. In a nutshell, some people are just really fucked up. So fucked up that they are clueless to it.

I'm still taken by surprise by his behavior! I still haven't come to expect this out of him, I don't know how to even get to that place. One thing you wrote and that I read in a narcissist related account (the Little Shaman) is that narcissists think their feelings ARE proof that something is true. If they feel something, then that alone is proof that something caused this feeling. If he feels jealous, then it's proof that I'm cheating. If he feels outraged, that feeling alone is proof that I did something outrageous. But the problem is I am completely taken by surprise at his feelings, so I can't really predict what new thing I'm supposed to be doing in his imagination. The 'scamming' thing is interesting because I think what he's distrustful of is that I gave him something that he wanted! Which is entirely in keeping with my personality and with what he knows of me as a person - none of which has changed.

Going forward seems prudent to grey rock him as much as possible. Minimal contact - kid and finances only. "Talk to my lawyer about that." No emotions he can weaponize! Maybe use a family scheduling app to communicate about your son? Put a stop to him coming into your home to "pick up a few things." Using that excuse as a ruse to force in person interaction could go on for MONTHS. Talk to your lawyer about ways to amicably get his things out ASAP. Set a deadline. Maybe your family can grey rock him as well? Why does he need to be in touch with them? If they were my family I'd encourage them to block him, or simply not respond to any communication from him - unless it's an emergency about your son AND you can't be reached. Especially ignore any blatant info fishing expeditions.

You're right, and I have to find a way to put this all in action. He can't come over anymore. My family is trickier because when WH and I were first married his father had just died and he had a falling out with his mother and my family embraced him as a son. He's relied on them for emotional support and for just being 'his family' for so long that it's hard to unwind that. He still refers to my sisters as his sisters, he's never said 'in law' about my parents or my siblings. And I know they mostly felt the same way about him. It's hard for them to let go of that history and I don't want to MAKE them do that, but also except for my one very close sister I've sheltered my family from a lot of the ugly facts. I think it's time to talk to them about some of them. I don't have a history of talking to my family about sex, so I have to find the right way to express some of the excessiveness of his actions without directly referring to them. Maybe the sheer volume of women (and men, I think I'll leave that part out though) will convey that.

But I've also been so protective of WH's right to have a family available to him that - and I know this is stupid - to this day it breaks my heart to think of taking my family away from him. I know I know I know I didn't do any of this, that he did. But the emotional guilt is right there and I haven't worked through it yet. I will eventually with my therapist, we just haven't covered any of that ground yet. I've always been so proud of having a loving family to surround him with. And he's the father of their grandson... it all feels so complicated, I just keep backing off of the subject in my mind.

Keeping in mind the theory of PROJECTION, pay attention to "Sigyn is scamming me" logic he's pulling out of his a**. If he accuses you of doing something, this could point to what HE is doing or thinking. Protect yourself.

Hah! You and my sister said exactly the same thing! When I told her he accused me of scamming him, she immediately said "I see, so now I wonder what he's scamming you about right now?"

they say things back to you that you said earlier to them - as in, they use the exact words.

I'm running out of lunch break but just wanted to add this last thing - I didn't know this was a thing! I didn't know people actually do this, and reading all of your accounts of this makes me even more - it's all just so disordered and weird!!

What does your husband want you to believe about yourself that will stop you from abandoning him (not just in body but in mind)? That is the hook that will keep you connected to him (since abandonment is his greatest fear).

I'm going to have to think about this today. Off the top of my head, based on his breakdown before my trip, it seemed to be 'we are the same, we both lied/cheated/scammed, and now we can repair our mutual mistakes together'. But I think it must go deeper than that.

There's more I wanted to highlight but I'm trying to not let affair related stuff take over my work time anymore (I'm only medium-successful at this...) -just thank you so much for all of your combined wisdom, I mean that so sincerely!!