SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't know what I'll do if he stonewalls and come to think of it, this isn't unlikely? I'm thinking, but this is so unprecedented I can't even think of an argument we've ever had that I could compare this to so I'm blind here.

In trying to keep my eyes on the big picture, I really just want him to show me the most basic of human respect by telling me who he is. Telling me who I'm actually married to. I need to know at least as much about who he is as his OW know. If he stonewalls, it would be the opposite of that. I don't know how I might handle it.

I'm also on the fence about revealing that I know he belongs to the cheating chat group. He hasn't apparently posted there for quite some time, maybe a year from what we could find, but he might lean on them after I confront him and I would like to read anything he writes. If he stonewalls me, I might be able to shake him out of it by reciting something he wrote on that group, "I only lie by omission" but then he would never write there again once he knew I knew about it.

I'm overthinking this, it's like a job interview when you rehearse and then none of what you rehearsed even comes up. But I'm so on edge today I can't think of anything else.

I think, if you can, as a response to stonewalling the best approach would be to tell him you know who he is now (without revealing too much detail) and tell him to go and live in the apartment above the garage as you need space. And leave it. Stonewalling is abusive. I also know it is extremely hard to respond as above when someone stonewalls you.

I don’t know what your relationship with your line manager is but if you could take a few days off work that would help. I was lucky enough to be on really good terms so I actually told them everything on dday. I got a huge amount of support. Ask your sister to come over and do some self care together, cry, talk and give yourself some time without the work stress.

Perhaps wait until the end or at least not right away to tell him your sister knows. If he thinks it's just between the 2 of you still he may talk more because he may think he can still convince you otherwise somehow. If his image matters to him then be prepared for anything once he knows you told your sister. Just a thought. Good luck and hugs!!!

Sigyn, Hang in there, and hopefully you can use that headache to bug out early and go home and try to relax. Try soothing music or ocean sounds and visualize yourself at the beach or your happy place. Have a favorite, happy memory in mind to turn to if you overrload. Reliving a joyful parenting moment or thinking of your child or grandmothers love can flood your brain with some happy chemicals to help offset the stressful ones you are flooding with right now. That lizard brain response is normal, and I can't reason with mine but I can temper it with the tricks that work for me.

Here comes a lot of thoughts, mostly nuance, as you already have great advice, a solid plan and a support system. I would second asking to see his phone. Go through the apps and email accounts and ask where the hidden calendars and files are. Watch his eyes when you start to talk to him, I bet he will glance at his phone because most of the discoverable trail is there. Also I second the recording, because much of what my WH did say confused me further. I used only one, to let him hear why shouting I'm not angry, you've never seen me angry is really scary undeserved anger. When frustrated, his calm controlled demeanor crumbled, and I'd not seen that side of him ever, in 35 years. It's hard to keep the details straight when the shock keeps coming and the emotions are roiling. If either of you overload take a minute, take a drink of water and continue. I left the room yelling in overload and pain a few times and regret my lack of control.

My scenario involved a trickle truth disclosure, with minimizations and gaslighting followed by discovery, more minimizing for several rounds after each new thing I uncovered. I bought the stories he told me because I wanted to believe it was over and he wanted only me as much as I did him. I got eye to eye with him and asked if there was any more secrets, were we at the truth and every time he said that was the end and he promised he was telling the truth. That is probably the hardest thing I have had to understand, the face to face outright lie while I begged for only honesty. I have learned he has no bottom to his self preservation, or maybe he just decided it's none of my business. Once I got the rough outline of full story and got rid of the OW, the stonewalling and refusal to discuss set in. Emotionally, morally and intellectually he is not the man I had crafted in my imagination, so the surreal shock lasted for a while. It is easy to overload on too many questions churning in your head; how could he be this person, how can I misjudge and mis-see so much? It's a lot to come to terms with, and acceptance of this new reality is a slow process when the facts come in a trickle. May you have all the facts you need and may you be blessed with a man who can look in himself and find honest and empathy for you and not continued selfishness for himself, who will help let tomorrow go gently. There is so much for you to be angry about but the bass note of your story is sorrow, and I hope it is mutual to ease your pain.

You may not get your why because he may not know his why, or be incapable of self reflection at that level, or inhibited by shame or embarrassment. My WH worked very hard on damage control and when that failed silence and when I refused to accept that anger and when I promised to leave if that continued we are back to I don't know and frustration. The best he can offer is he is a selfish asshole who thought he deserved more, while I had the kids, my friends, a great life and was happy, what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me. The thing that is so obvious to me and not him is the value gap, the commitment and honesty gap and I don't know if he was always this compromised person masquerading as loving faithful husband or if life and long term relationship issues forced him to become a person who could do any of this to me. To us, and the life and family we built. He can't look through that truth door because it makes him feel bad about himself, and it seems his primary cheating motivation was to feel good, both physically and emotionally. I don't know if he sees how wrong and unfair that was or even understands the concept of betrayal, he has it twisted nicely into compartments that make zero sense to me, and we have both always been analytical logic types. You will be confused, be prepared for that and not too disappointed. Your WH can go in any of the directions we have shared with you from our lives, but knowledge is power. You will go in the direction that works best for you both now and later as you discover what that is. As hard as all of this has been for me, I can see a metamorphosis taking place that I did not seek or need but is allowing me to become what will be my best version of myself yet. You will too. One breath and step and day at a time.

Best to you.

When you ask for his phone, you may play dumb and access that cheater's chat (it could be an app) and go from there...
Or you may find something else when going thru his device(s) and ask for an explanation.
Don't forget to use your phone to take pictures/document and record the convo.

Sigyn,

your goal of confronting as you stated in your prior post is to find out HIS WHY's and to tell you who he really is. Under the circumstances, this looks like the IC's job.

You may want to reframe your goal since you already know plenty. IMO your goal should be to get out of infidelity with him or without him as you're not willing to share your H with anyone either emotionally or physically.

Strength to you!

[This message edited by TruthIsPower at 6:59 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

I really just want him to show me the most basic of human respect by telling me who he is. Telling me who I'm actually married to. I need to know at least as much about who he is as his OW know.

In many, if not most cases, that's the exact opposite of what the cheater is bent on doing. He doesn't WANT people to know him, not you, not anyone, not even himself. Often, cheating is about the facade that one presents to others. It's like a guy with a bag of masks who changes them so often he no longer knows what his real face looks like. They have a desperate craving for attention and validation because underneath it all, they're afraid to be seen and because they don't allow that to happen, they cannot be truly loved. You can't love what you don't know and this kind of cheater can't tolerate anyone knowing him, and underneath it all, they know that.

Long and short, he might not tell you anything that's real. Chances are good that he'll reach for another mask. It might be the "I'm-so-sorry-I-promise-to-change" mask. It might be the "I-am-not-required-to-answer-your-questions" mask. It might even be the "I'm-leaving-because-I'm-busted" mask. There are quite a number of possibilities. He might even tell you the truth as he understands it. But showing you who he is?.. as possibilities go, that's an outlier.

IMO your goal should be to get out of infidelity with him or without him as you're not willing to share your H with anyone either emotionally or physically.

That seems like such a long goal, like something I can't even see the shape of in my mind. I want to be at that point, I do, but I have barely even accepted that I am sharing him with others, that I don't know him.

Every day it's like something new seems like the most important thing I need to get a handle on. Today it's just... who is he? Who is he really? People can hide so much in their own minds. I can't see it in him, I can't see it in his eyes, he's got everything I need to know in his own mind, invisible, and I can only reach in there and look with his help and permission. If he doesn't give me permission, I will literally never know who he really is.

My sister asked me if I was obsessing over the sex part and honestly I'm not, or maybe just not yet? And I don't even know why I'm not. If anyone had ever asked me before this I'd have said it would make me sick to picture him having sex with another woman. But as it happens what really kills me is his lies. His misrepresentation of himself, to me, to our family, friends. If it was "just sex" it's one thing. He is literally a different, unknown man! That's my current fixation.

So eventually yes I want to get out of this man-sharing relationship I seem to be unwillingly part of with multiple other women, but I'm so afraid that the only way out of it is by leaving him. And I'm not willing to let go of the hope that even if I do leave him, I'll be able to really SEE him before that happens. Who am I even leaving? A sex addict? A sociopath? An insecure man who hates himself and looks for external validation that he's worthy? Or just a run of the mill selfish asshole who is secretly not monogamous but wanted a wife who was faithful to just him?

He doesn't WANT people to know him, not you, not anyone, not even himself. Often, cheating is about the facade that one presents to others. It's like a guy with a bag of masks who changes them so often he no longer knows what his real face looks like. They have a desperate craving for attention and validation because underneath it all, they're afraid to be seen and because they don't allow that to happen, they cannot be truly loved. You can't love what you don't know and this kind of cheater can't tolerate anyone knowing him, and underneath it all, they know that.

This is very wise. And I think something I'll eventually say to him, not tonight but at some point. I would have been willing to love him (I think? I don't know, I'd at least have tried) if he let me see him, know him for who he really was. He could have been seen, known and loved for his real self. And if not by me, then by someone more willing to be exposed to an open marriage if that's in fact what he really wanted. Instead his mask was loved while he hid behind it, invisible and unseen. What a sucky way to live. What a sad, pathetic, sick way to live.

So eventually yes I want to get out of this man-sharing relationship I seem to be unwillingly part of with multiple other women, but I'm so afraid that the only way out of it is by leaving him. And I'm not willing to let go of the hope that even if I do leave him, I'll be able to really SEE him before that happens. Who am I even leaving? A sex addict? A sociopath? An insecure man who hates himself and looks for external validation that he's worthy? Or just a run of the mill selfish asshole who is secretly not monogamous but wanted a wife who was faithful to just him?

I'm not really talking about the "man-sharing", I'm talking about Infidelity that involves lies, deceit, disrespect, etc. What kind of person can do this to another one? I'm pretty sure you can answer your own questions above ... All of the above to whatever degree with very high probability.

My fWH told me that he didn't know what the Truth was. Everybody around him were lying, so he lied too. Mind you, one of his online AP's (psychologist, LOL) sent him her Power Point presentation on a subject how to properly lie! He even saved it! I wrote a long list of his character traits and gave it to him. I guess it helped him to wake up from his mental sleep. He really had Aha moment. I was quite clear that I was not going to "fight for him as OW's" (as he wanted and imagined/fantasized) and not going to accept those character traits and lack of morals and integrity; no more Infidelity. Believe me, these ppl don't even know what the morals are. Hard to believe, but unfortunately this is true.

[This message edited by TruthIsPower at 9:56 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

It's ok if you are obsessed with the sex part or even if not. To many, the sex is worse than emotional. To others, it's opposite but either/or should be an assault on your marriage.

What is clear here is that monogamous and exclusive is violated regardless of sex or not and he is in the wrong.

How you approach the full investigative stage and how you deal with it should be on your terms. Protect yourself in the interim.

I think it's great the other woman reached out to you. At least you know part of it. Please assume it's much worse to protect yourself. I would suggest a polygraph to figure out the magnitude of his issue.

Please also don't allow him further excuses. Like he's a sexaholic or what have you. This is all about you right now and you do what you need to do.

You are still young with much of your life ahead of you. Be in control

Sigyn, I don't know if this message will be read in time, but this is my only advice to add: Say less

What you have ahead of you is going to be a long process, no matter what your ultimate goal. Fight the urge to get everything done in this one monumental confrontation. Fight the urge to try to trick or outsmart him into spilling everything. Play your cards close to your vest. This will also help you stay emotionally centered. The only things he should know are that you know enough to conduct a no-bullshit confrontation and that what you know is MORE than enough to end things. That's it. He fills in the rest or he doesn't. That's his call. It's my belief that you can't make people do things they truly don't want to do (or if you can make them, the meaning of what they then do is completely changed).

As for his possible stonewalling--no response is a response. Don't be afraid to end the conversation if it's clear he's intent on stonewalling. Let him know that his silence/stalling speaks volumes about how he sees you and how you ought to be treated. Then leave to another room/space with purposefulness, as though you know exactly what your next steps are given his stonewalling. Don't waste your time trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Remember, play the long game. This is going to be a long journey, in the absolute best of circumstances. Anything else is rugsweeping.

Sigyn - just popping in to say I am thinking of you tonight. I have no idea where you are in this world, but a woman in the NE US is thinking about you.

You've got this. It's ugly and awful and you will fall down when you meant to stand up, but in the end, YOU WILL BE OK. Better than ok, you will thrive.

One of the gifts of infidelity (if there is one, and I'd argue there is) is finding your strength. It's realizing that you, in the end, are capable and worth, well, everything. Once that really sets in for you, you will know your path (and his).

Hugs and good mojo to you.

I am also thinking of you this evening - be well...

I think, if you can, as a response to stonewalling the best approach would be to tell him you know who he is now (without revealing too much detail) and tell him to go and live in the apartment above the garage as you need space. And leave it. Stonewalling is abusive. I also know it is extremely hard to respond as above when someone stonewalls you.

This is spot on accurate. If you can get anywhere close to that advice you did 99.9999% better than I did. That being said, you have too keep the focus on you - but things that are GOOD for you. On d-day, I say anything goes - but I am not of the mindset that you have to be in it for the long game. Aside from potential financial ramification and protecting your kids - d-day #1 is about YOU. Say what you need to - say your peace whatever that may be - just DON'T expect a certain outcome as you can't control it (this is the NUMBER ONE lesson I have learned here - and from this A - let go of controlling the outcome - you can't). If you are worried you are going to say "something" that will turn him away from you - don't worry about that - if one thing is all he needs to leave he's going anyway.

All that being said, one of the things I wish I did not do was make it a "fairness competition" - WS would stonewall and I knew that all he wanted me to do was leave him alone - so I would carry on and on and on and on because I was not about to give him what he wanted (my silence) and because he would sit there in silence I would keep going. I can't even remember what I said on many of these hours long rants, but I would go through the whole range of emotions - anger, break-down sobbing, ranting, begging, mean and nasty - you name it - the entire carousel of emotions...and he would say nothing throughout it all, and he would have tuned me out completely making the whole thing just a big pile of pain shopping for me (he has admitted as much later on - that he really just ignored what I was saying most of the time - so it had as little affect on him as possible - however anyone can even do that is a mystery to me even today). But at D-day#1 you aren't pain shopping - say what you need to say for you.

I agree with everyone here that if he's a talker, let him talk. If he's a stonewaller, say what you want/need and send him on his way as fast as you can after that.

Morning, Sigyn. I was thinking about you on my morning walk today. I hope your confrontation went as well as it could be expected to go and Loki is now residing above your garage.

It was awful. I did what I set out to do, mostly, and he did a combination of literally everything you guys said he might do.

I said my opening line - "I'd like you to tell me about your other life, with your other partners."

He started with absolute denial. He had no idea what I was talking about, he was "confused" and he was "concerned for me" (for me!!) and asked what he could do to help ME resolve MY confusion.

I felt absolute rage. But I kept silent and just looked at him and waited. His face was holding on to this exaggerated look of "confusion and concern" but then his jaw started wobbling and he had to clench it and that's it, I knew it was all true. He asked was this a rumor I'd heard, and I just repeated that he needs to tell me about the life he's been hiding.

I can't remember anything really in order after that, but it involved a lot of absolute and unilateral denial, a COMPLETELY ridiculous "I might have had a flirtation once while traveling, and I'm very sorry about that, it was so disrespectful to you and our marriage, how can I help you heal from this casual flirtation?" and then at some point he tried to make me the bad guy and himself the victim "Why are you accusing me, what's wrong with YOU that you're saying these things to me? Why would you do this?" and just sooooo much "What do you think you know? What are you talking about? What are you misinterpreting? I can't tell you what I don't know. I can't confess to something I haven't done and don't even know about. If you just tell me what's concerning you I can address it, but if I don't know what you're worried about I can't help you."

He leaned on me really hard to figure out what I knew, probably so he could only admit to that one part. He was relentless, it was like he was bullying me! He was snide and scathing at times "I can't read your mind, so I can't tell you anything since I don't know what you're even asking me!" He went SO LOW by referring to things he knows bother me, insecurities, things from my past, things about me that only he knows, "is that why you're feeling insecure??" He also asked if it was "hormones" and if I could be going through "early menopause".

I thought it would be impossible to be an emotionless grey rock but actually I think I disassociated from myself and from him, I felt like I was watching a bug stuck in a jar and bouncing off the glass as it tried to escape. He would literally talk for like 20 minutes just like that, just telling me how ridiculous I was being and coming up with preposterous reasons I might be thinking there was something else happening in his life. I let him rant but there was no information in it.

Finally I had enough and said - H, I know, I know about your other women, your lifestyle, your other life. The trips. The massages (this was the sex workers). Everything else. I need you to talk to me about these things now.

And then as soon as he understood that I do know a lot, not just one thing he could admit to but like A LOT of stuff - he stonewalled. He clenched his jaw, looked at the floor, said "It sounds like your mind is already made up that all of this happened so there's nothing for me to say."

I said he could start with telling me how much money over the years he's spent on sex workers. No response.

He could tell me if he was ever STD tested. (I know he was, I saw his appointments and OW saw his results, but didn't tell him this). No response.

He could tell me more about the women he wasn't paying, the ones he considered girlfriends. No response.

I used the question one of you suggested "What did you think was going to happen?" And to this he said something like well he didn't think his wife was going to accuse him of all of these 'random' things.

Then at some point we both just sat there quietly for a while, but he had tears dripping out of his eyes really fast and onto his pants and then I broke down and cried on my own side of the couch and that went on a while. He didn't make a single move to comfort me.

I tried the police interrogation technique that's like 'I think you really do want to share this with me, I feel like you're ready to, after carrying these secrets so long' but he just shook his head, looked down, tears.

At some point I told him that I would be willing to not hear any details of what he did if he could just tell me WHY he did this, what he got from it. No denial, but no answer.

He finally asked me if my sister and BIL were "in on this" and I said I did tell my sister because I needed her help watching our son. I said I've also spoken with attorneys and he was SHOCKED. Like he looked up from his lap like I'd just smacked him, I could actually SEE the blood drain out of his face! He asked if I was serious and I was like YES, why would we be sitting here with our clothes soaked with tears and snot asking these painful question if I was not serious?

This is when things went off plan for me because I lost it when he asked if I was serious, I told him he fucked sex workers while I was pregnant, he put me and our child in danger, he has an entire second life outside our marriage, what did he THINK would happen when I found out. Of course I called a fucking lawyer!

And then he said something like look, let's sleep on this and then talk about it again tomorrow, I need to get my thoughts in order, etc etc.

I told him this was his chance to come clean. About anything. I need him to tell me at least ONE thing about his other life. He circled back to the "flirtation" he'd had years ago on a work trip and I was just disgusted. I told him to cut the bullshit, I have seen proof and the only hope for him is to be honest. This is his window of opportunity. Instead my words just sent him straight back to "what proof? you aren't even telling me what you think you've seen! How do I know how to respond if you're not giving me specifics?"

So I think it was a mistake to mention the existence of proof, because he just got fixated on it.

One thing that almost worked was when I was asking him how he intended to repay the money that he'd used to hire sex workers. I said "that was my money, too, and I didn't consent to paying for you to have sex with others" and this was the only thing I said that he was having a very intense reaction to that was almost going to result in him saying something. He really wanted to respond to that, I could see the words almost coming out and then he just sucked them back in.

He then "offered" to sleep in the apartment and I told him that he was moving in there, not just sleeping.

He went to the apartment but then I texted him to come back so I could ask him more questions, and he came back and we repeated a lot of the useless dialog but he was just not sharing anything. It was awful.

After that, he went back to the apartment and I texted him a bunch of questions along the lines of "Who are you?? Please tell me who I'm married to" and he eventually wrote back "I may need your help more than ever" - and that was it for the night. I imagine this means he will now be telling me he is a victim of something.

I can't fucking believe he would end that awful, soul sucking night with "I may need your help"!!! He couldn't even answer a single one of my questions but wants my help!!

I took off work today, H texted and asked if he could use his home office for work and I said no, come get your work stuff and take it to the apartment, I closed myself in our room and heard him get his things. He texted a few things but they're all unbelievably stupid. I texted my former therapist if she could do an online appointment and she is fitting me in after her last client at 5pm.

I'm heartbroken and enraged. I gave him an open door to tell me anything and he told me nothing. He now knows that I know, but I have no answers.

OMG I am so sorry, I did not guess he was going to be such an idiot. He is a slippery one. Stay strong, don't give an inch until he gives you the truth. Yay for the therapist. I've been worried about you and want you to know we are here for you, you are doing a great job of protecting yourself. You are not dealing with the man you thought you knew. Remember he is a stranger and a danger to you now until he can be honest with you and himself. He may take forever for both. hugs to you...

Edited to add it might be interesting to see who he has been texting and calling since last night. He should offer you his phone as a first step to new discussions. I'd keep an eye on the chat group and email trails. He's in panic mode and likely to screw up. He's also in shock mode and doesn't see beyond himself to the person he shattered. take care of yourself...

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 5:00 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

Sigyn,

I feel it so much. This has happened in my household few weeks ago and my H behavior was similar to yours. He wouldn't admit to anything even if I had evidence. I hated him when he said that he didn't remember things or that I forced him to tell me something that never took place. At the end he said crying that his life is in my hands and that he needs me more than ever. I still don't know who is the person I spent 20 years with.

Hang in there. Take one day at the time. We are going to make it though it somehow.

Thinking of you Sigyn. I know unfortunately how gut wrenching, exhausting and disorienting those conversations are. My heart goes out to you.

But you did fantastic. Small comfort for sure but you did what you set out to do: attempt to get honesty from your husband, draw your boundaries (get out until you can be honest) and protect yourself (no sources revealed).

I am not one bit shocked at his response. The cheaters mantra (and you can read this on cheater sites) is admit to nothing. Ever. That will be his first line of defense because that is the only "plan" he likely had. Unfortunately, the truth in your situation is very ugly (because of years of deceit) and he is now between a rock and hard place. If he gets honest, he figures he'll lose you. In his wayward mind, his only shot at saving his marriage is to make sure you never know the full, unmitigated truth.

Waywards who eventually come clean do so because they figure out it is the only way to save the marriage (which is exactly what you are signaling). Even deeper, waywards who come clean do so because they finally figure out that their betrayed spouse deserves the truth, regardless of the outcome. In other words, they pull their head out of their asses and start to recognize their spouse, not as the enemy, but as a human being in pain that deserves truth and agency. Until he reaches one or both of these places, his responses will continue to be maddening.

You take care of you. Disengage when you need the space and ask your questions when he comes looking for conversation. I have no doubt he is in a full blown downward spiral right now as his life crashes into the infidelity rocks. His coming to you for comfort is absurd, but also pretty typical. I mean, who did you want comfort from when you found out? The very person who did it to you. Regardless, he needs to manage HIS feelings and he needs to get real with tapping into yours. Tall order and not likely to happen in the early days of discovery and confrontation. So take care of yourself and stick with your boundaries. He'll either figure it out or he'll cling to his mask. You keep walking forward.

Sigyn,
I have been following your story and the very sound advice that others have given. As I read your update I remembered that awful feeling in the pit of my stomach when I confronted my XH, it was almost an out of body experience. How arrogant of him to expect your help to get through it! I got the same infuriating nonsense from my idiot who told me I was his best friend and the person who knew him best in the world, except I didn't know about his OW and sexcapades, hmm.

I really just wanted to send hugs and say that you handled it so very well. It sounds like an emotional onslaught and you weathered it brilliantly. It may feel like nothing to celebrate, but you will look back on this one day and be proud of yourself.

WOW, what a human shaped bag of wet garbage. What a narcissistic, gaslighting piece of shit he is. I am so sorry he confirmed that he is everything you thought he wasn't. He had an opportunity to save try to save this but chose self-preservation and lies over you, ONCE AGAIN. I wonder if he is going to take to his cheating message boards for advice now that the jig is up. He obviously somewhat planned for this, but thought that we could gaslight you back into your lane.

Keep moving forward with divorce. This man seems to be irredeemable, you are WAAAAAY outside of his league and too good for this. I hope it was worth it for him, his life is about to drastically change.