SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just remembered another little tidbit about my NPD a**hole. A couple of times during arguments we traded insults that seem to only be remembered as being said to him - no mention (or recall) of him saying an equal one to me. My hurt doesn't count, while his counts heaps & heaps. A bit off balance there, no?! NPD sucks!!!!!

I'm so very glad for you that your attorney knows narcissists! The pig wresting quote is a great one. I for one have learned the hard way that my ex Narcissist can rationalize and flip any situation to make it my fault. 99% of the time I will lose or get exhausted. The 1% of the time where I have an airtight argument and don't allow her to sidestep the issue just leads to extra-strong rage.

sound familiar?

pigs... Better off without them.

It's been quite a while since I posted in this thread. I really need some support. My ex acted like a petulant child during the marriage and this has not gotten any better. How in the hell are you supposed to coparent with that? How do I stay on the high road and not flame him to the kids when his behavior is so ridiculous? I have two older teens still in HS that ask pointed questions and I won't lie. On the other hand I am the daughter of a crappy father and my mother's endless complaints about him were tiresome, and even left my brother more bitter towards her than him. I couldn't care less what he is doing with his life but because i am forced to deal with him as a coparent I can't get to apathy. Help!!

You don't co parent you reparent them.

I used their friends fathers as examples. What do you think Jenny's dad would do in this situation? What would you do in the same situation? Sometimes I have asked why they thought daddy did this or that? I've done that to teach them daddy manipulates things to take a decision from them.

I'm not speaking ill of him, I'm not playing along with his screwed up version of hospitality.

Hugd

I had to let go of the idea of "coparenting" and the guilt that I felt because I could not make that happen. I think it was here that I read about "parallel parenting" which is totally doable if you count what he does as parenting...

I find it easiest to imagine that he died. I do all the parenting. His weekends are like playdates with an older cousin who must be considered suspect at best for decision making.

Parenting with a narcissist is nothing like what they sell you in the parenting class required by my state for divorce.

I agree. Parallel parenting is better than trying to make joint decisions with an adolescent child. You are divorced for a reason and the greater the distance you have from him the better off you will be.

What's your time split with the N ex like? If you have the kids the bulk of the time then by all means minimize your interaction and decision making with the ex. He can be the 'fun one'. Your kids know the score. I agree with being honest when they ask questions. They know the answers already really.

My policy is to keep the high ground when possible. That being said, if the ex is raging/game playing and the kids see it, I sure as hell explain in a matter of fact manner what she is doing, and answer any questions they might have. I avoid lying to my kids if I can avoid it. Certainly won't due it for my ex's benefit, only theirs.

Parenting with a narcissist is nothing like what they sell you in the parenting class required by my state for divorce.

Ha, ha, so true. I remember asking a what-if question of the guy running our class and he looked at me like "you need help beyond what I can give". I just quit asking questions!!

eta: Reparenting is the order of the day, imo. I like Kajem's suggestions.

I also don't lie, if they ask questions about their father. And at the beginning of the separation, I made sure they knew they had the right to tell either of us that they don't want to be in the middle, and exactly what triangulation was.

[This message edited by Compartmented at 7:47 AM, April 5th (Sunday)]

Thank you for all suggestions. The biggest issue I have is that he is still trying to punish me by being a pain in the ass about custody and expenses not covered by child support. It gets a little hazy as the kids are older, and my state does not require support past high school graduation, even for full time college students. He makes obscene money but acts like he's broke when it comes time to cover extra expenses. He acts like he's doing me a huge favor when he spends any time with the kids not required by the agreement (about 70/30 split to me), then out of the other side of his mouth talks about how much he loves being with them and would take full custody. He is also in a state of confusion, thinking its still my job to rearrange my life around his work trips, even though he is the one who populated the custody calendar to what weeks worked for him months ahead of time. This is crazy making!

Been reading a great book about divorcing people with NPD/BPD traits/behaviors.

It's called Splitting.

A very good "how-to" book on what to expect when leaving a N/BPD type. What reactions to expect, how to educate your lawyer and other judical officials about their behavior (just cite the facts and demonstrate a clear pattern of bad behavior).

After reading it, I realized WW has done/is doing most of what they describe.

I just thought someone might find it useful.

WornDown, I just read your profile. I am just floored by how she has behaved and also concerned for you.

Are you in IC? I ask this from concern. I too stayed way too long, took way too much abuse. The affairs were at the end but the emotional manipulation and cruelty were pretty horrific.

One place that I read often now is a site called Dealing with Manipulative People by Dr. George Simon. It helps in understanding the "disordered" and also helps to see how you were sucked in.

Another good place to read is Out of the Fog.

It helped me to understand, I just needed to understand. I hear what you saying, "why". I too ask that but I will never hear it from x.

I have to create my own why, my own closure.

I am sorry you are going through this.

Good luck with the divorce. I hope it goes as smoothly as possible.

I live 5 hours away now, and that has helped me separate reality from crazy. Unfortunately, the kids are still with her, but I'm in court asking for custody now.

I know when I'm being manipulated now, and just don't stand for it. Or just ignore it.

The 180, being 5 hours away and not having to deal with WW every day, has really helped me understand (come to the realization?) that that life is over and now it's up to me to start a new one.

Hopefully with my kids, but without her (as much as possible, she is there mom).

I found this article on my Facebook this morning, and couldn't get to this thread fast enough to post it. Then I see that Coparenting has been a recent topic of discussion. Perfect!

"Why Coparenting fails and Parallel Parenting succeeds with high conflict couples":

http://parentsinconflict.com/coparenting-blog/news-article/archive/2009/06/12/article/why-coparenting-fails-and-parallel-parenting-succeeds-with-high-conflict-couples-1.html

OK, I need help.

I wasn't really sure my ex was NPD until these last few months. I knew he was a lying asshole (he had gay affairs our entire marriage), but I think I was in denial. I hadn't hit the "rage" until recently, mostly because I was complacent and did what I could to keep the peace. Well, I stood up for what I want, and the rage is at full force.

So...without saying too many details, I'm going to have to go back to mediation with him to request a change in custody/visitation. I want to move out of state in the next year or so, back to where I grew up, and my SO lives.

I have primary custody. He is an e/o weekend Dad. We live 2 hours apart in the same state.

I've told him this move is coming, I started talking to him in January to give him 18 months to plan to relocate with us. so he could remain in the children's lives similar to what he is now...(court requires 30 days notice, I've given him 18 months) There is nothing holding us to our present state. We both have family here, but neither side of family is supportive.

He has a partner of 3 years, but they do not live together, and are not married. The relationship is unstable, I've heard of cheating and other things. There is no co-habitation.

Of course, all hell has broken loose. I've been screamed at, berated, threatened, I've had to move drop offs to a neutral location, he is condescending, sarcastic and nasty. He is ramping up trying to look like a good dad. He is implying I am a terrible mother, and some days just trying to get me to engage by bombarding me with anything he can.

Then he'll send a text asking if he can pick me up dinner.

He is making serious mistakes in the emails to me, referring to things that never happened, and I have proof. I haven't let on that I have anything on him via previous custody issues. I do NOT engage at ALL.

I requested mediation, and after my third request...his lawyer finally told him he needed to get his ass into mediation, per our decree.

Has anyone had any experience in negotiating with a NPD? I know I cannot engage with any emotion about all the shit he is throwing right now. I need to stay on topic...but how do I get this to look like a good idea to him? He just wants to "win". There are several benefits...I will agree to less money...I have personal support there...a gay friendly area for him...he can find easy work there and much lower cost of living. The kids will be in an ideal area (close to colleges, parks, good schools), and have the benefit of an involved and healthy step parent (SO) and his very involved support system. I can remain a stay at home parent for the children, which is important because they are both special needs.

What I'm unsure about is if ex's partner is willing to relocate. I think that is the entire issue...he wants to stay put to be with his parter (again...the relationship has major issues...).

SO cannot relocate to my area.

What are tips/tricks to negotiate with NPD?

[This message edited by cmego at 8:35 AM, April 17th (Friday)]

Sorry, but I really can't offer "tricks."

In my experience, once they get something in their head, it sticks there. There are a variety of books dealing with NPD/BPD personalities and just "high conflict" people in general. I think all those strategies can be tried, but who knows.

I'm hoping that my lawyer can work something out with her lawyer, and then her lawyer conviences WW that the agreement is the best for her. Basically, my hope is that she'll listen to someone she "trusts" and who isn't me or connected to me.

The fact that I'm asking for full custody and to move the kids out of state - i don't think WW will agree to anything; it'll take the courts decreeing it.

[This message edited by WornDown at 2:53 PM, April 20th (Monday)]

w2 - great link! If you click around, there are several good ideas there regarding the current discussion.

One takeaway is to not try to negotiate with them, to detach, and let go of the idea that you can, and instead focus your energies on painting a picture (strategize this with your attorney), or telling the story to the mediator or court how your plan to parent is in the best interests of the children.

Have your attorney &/or mediator and/or judge do the negotiating with them,

and you've provided *just the facts* documentation of their clownery, then stay as far away as you can from interaction with them.

The point remains, NC = no new hurts. Minimize contact as much as possible, until you can achieve full NC (even if you have to do exchanges at the police station!)

Let others negotiate with them. You can even possibly game it to where "your story", presented to them by others, can seem to be a good idea for them - only if it's shown to them by someone else (in authority) -

Remember, their own children are just objects anyway

- to wield power over you

or

- to help them maintain appearances, the mask, to the world

I wish you well (((Tribe)))

One takeaway is to not try to negotiate with them, to detach, and let go of the idea that you can, and instead focus your energies on painting a picture (strategize this with your attorney), or telling the story to the mediator or court how your plan to parent is in the best interests of the children.

Have your attorney &/or mediator and/or judge do the negotiating with them,

and you've provided *just the facts* documentation of their clownery, then stay as far away as you can from interaction with them.

This.

This has been my current strategy so far. If nothing else, it has spared me the constant back and forth with WW. That's some relief.

Triple trouble,

I totally understand how you feel. My parents were divorced and my mother constantly complained about my father. We felt in the middle, very uncomfortable.

But there's a big difference between unsolicited complaints about your ex versus validating your kids feelings and perspectives. They are dealing with an NPD, who can make them feel crazy at times. If and when they come to you with something, listen and validate. Ask them how they feel. And like Kakem suggests, ask them how they think so-and-so's parent would handle It. Your job is to help de-normalize his behavior so they don't grow up to marry people just like him (because it feels familiar).

In contrast, if he does something crappy like withhold child support, or send you harassing emails, keep it to yourself.

Always take the high road, and over time, your kids will figure it out. My ex was NPD and probably sociopathic to some extent, and my son had turned out very well adjusted. Thankfully.

Kajem,

Sorry for the delay in responding - thanks for your reply about adding a BDP page (a couple pages back). With regard to your question - no, my wife was never sexually assaulted as a child or ever for a matter of fact, but she did grow up in a broken/divorced family of which both her parents have been diagnosed with personality disorders - her dad NPD and mom BDP.

I guess both disorders overlap a lot on the same traits, but it just seems one of the main traits of BDP is sexual promiscuity and sexual affairs, and being a person who has lived with someone who has BDP, i find so many of the posts on here, seem to have strayed partners with those same traits, and the person posting has no idea that their WS has a disorder...

Adding a BDP thread was just a suggestion, but maybe down the road... thanks for checking on it and responding. Take care.

Wow - I have taken a break it definitely helped but now I am going to try to take the ex back to court to request full custody.

I need to remind myself who I am dealing with and refresh myself of what to expect.

He has had new supply and pretty much discarded the kids, but will probably try to fight it because he of course is super dad.

Stay strong tribe!

(((TRIBE)))

I've missed you all. I'm sorry I didn't take the time to read through what I've missed and respond - I will eventually, I promise.

The D is ongoing. We've been ordered to mediation for the parenting plan, which we are going to next week, along with an all day hearing with the magistrate to see if we can settle without going to trial. (Riiiiiight...)

I'm doing ok, I'm just nervous about being in mediation without my attorney there to "protect" me. Kwim?

WH continues to be a belligerent prick, and I can't get him to sign off on even the most basic things about the parenting schedule so that we don't have to spend our mediation time dealing with it.

Hoping you all will have some advice or tips for dealing with next week. It's going to be a lot of NPDness all up in my face, in the moment, when I can't just cry or be angry in private before responding to an inappropriate email, etc.

I'm looking forward to being back here on a regular basis.....just have to wait for things to be over, but had to come and ask y'all about next week because I'm about to leap out of my skin with anxiety over it.

Thanks.

Be well everyone.