SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This thread is for Betrayed Spouses to ask questions of Wayward Spouses. Betrayed Spouses are not to answer on this thread.

Hikingout-

I think my exww is limerant for her AP. I snooped and found a FB message and her search history as my main evidence (she wouldn't admit when confronted and told me to never contact her again). She googled limerance and how to get over in during the course of her affair. At this time she was also coming to me weeping saying she was a broken person and needed therapy, then didn't set up appointments when I got her numbers. I know she felt guilty at least at first.

What I'm confused about is that it seems she's in an open relationship with her AP. The FB message was "Natalie how old was the guy I slept with last night? Did he look 50 to you?". Other searches during her affair included "what does it mean to not be exclusive".

She's walked away like I never even existed, hasn't even asked how I am since before DDay. This is a girl I knew since I was 12 who I was married to for 7 years. Who I built my life with. Who busted her ass while I was in college to support us so she could get her turn after I graduated, which she threw away to go cheat. We had a very loving marriage and for years said we were each other's best friend.

I know limerance is a bitch, but I'm scared what's going to happen if it ever fades for her. I'm healing slowly, but any info about her triggers the shit out of me.

Should I expect it, how do I respond if it does happen? Did you realize the depths of the harm you'd caused after your limerance faded?

Have tried to post three times to this thread today and my computer has wiped out my work, so not in best frame of mind

Anyway, here’s my detailed story: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=640195

Short version: my WW had a 3 mo affair in 2016 with a friend of mine. Sex in our home, gaslighting, blameshifting and trickle truth were all on the menu — as was rationalizing, minimizing, destroying evidence and not letting me see texts.

It took 3 years and hard ultimatums to get a timeline, STD test and polygraph. She failed the polygraph in December almost exactly three years after DDAY 1 in December of 2016.

At the same time, I have to be fair and say my WW has done a lot to show the kind of wife she wants to be going forward and she has been consistent about it.

My question is does my WW seem like a safe partner to you, her fellow WS’s?

I continue to struggle with the facts as I know them.

Thumos,

The more important question is do you think she is a safe partner for you today, and are you happy with where you are at moving forward.

Seriously, there was a lot of bullshit she threw your way. That being said, you two are working on things now. You seem to indicate that she is doing a lot of the right things.

I had my D-Day almost 5 years ago. I wish I could promise my BW that I won't ever wander again. I never thought I would in the first place. I am pretty sure I won't cheat again as I have no intention to and have done a lot of work to figure out why, but I worry. My BW worries too. She got up early this morning after a bad dream- yup, about the AP. my wife said she wishes the AP were dead. She hates that the AP can sneak back into her head like that after a couple of years of nothing.

It seems like you two are cobbling together some kind of 'new' marriage. Maybe you both have grown and worked on your M, and on yourselves. Maybe you are content just to carry on as is. No one is going to be perfect. and the AP will always take up space in a lightly closed box in our heads.

Is it time for you to accept where you are at, where your spouse is at and just continue? Eyes wide open so to speak. I mean I am surprised you stuck through it to this point.

I wish I could promise my BW that I won't ever wander again.

Why can't you though? Seriously. My STBXWW says the same shit. All you have to do is not cheat if presented the opportunity. Is your unwillingness to accept complete blame for your actions causing you to believe free will doesn't exist?

It was suggest by nekonamida that I post here seeking some WS insight or opinions. I realize these are just opinions.

That said a couple more items.

1. Last night my WW saw that I was looking at the reconciliation area here on SI - I showed her I was looking at positive reconciliation stories. I had agreed to pull back from SI several months but I never agreed to disengage completely. my WW has basically given me the cold shoulder all day

2. My WW Says that SI is anti reconciliation and that it only depresses me and renews my anger to read here. I’ve asked her to consider interacting here with other WS but she refuses

3. the failed polygraph in December was an absolute shit - show. My WW tried to change the questions, succeeded in dropping a question, and insulted the credibility of the examiner (a retired former agent agent with state bureau of investigation). She cried and begged and wailed and brought her sister along for additional drama and hostility to me for something I Had been asking for for three years. She still failed the poly and now says it was bc of her anxiety and that she’s telling me the truth

4. Along with the failed polygraph I also I know for sure without a doubt that my WW brought another man over to our house for the express purpose of unprotected sex, that she played house with him and our kids by haivng him over for extended dinners while I was away on work trips, that she discussed with the OM how she "didn't even care" if I found out and chortled and chuckled about the sex they had, that she gaslighted me to make me think I'd falsely accused her, that she encouraged me to think I was paranoid and needed professional psychiatric help, that she invoked an in-home separation from me during the affair, that she trickle truthed me and blameshifted after D-Day and tried to get me to accept a line that I was 'sexually immature' about her having 'meaningless sex' with another man, that she buried evidence, destroyed evidence, refused transparency and refused to take an STD test or write out a timeline or submit to a polygraph for years. And that she finally failed a polygraph on the question of whether she was telling me the truth about the affair.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:03 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:03 PM, Tuesday, July 21st]

Question for WS. When you first had sex. Did you plan it or did it just happen? Like my husband says it just happened but he took her to his hotel room.(they had been talking for a few weeks. He met her out of town ) And was you thinking about the BS? Like right before you "stuck it in" did you know you was about to commit adultery? How did u move forward? What did u feel like after the sex was over? How did you go home to your BS and look them in the eye? Did u know this would kill them? Did u care? Did u feel horrible? If yes then why did u do it again? I just cant see myself being able to do these things without thinking of my husband.

ThisOisOfine,

You miss the point. What good is my word after having cheated and lied? Even 5 years on I know that there is always that niggly feeling my BW gets if I miss answering a call, or whatever.

Actions and behaviours longterm are all I can really offer in a solid way.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 1:14 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

Thumos,

Sent you a PM.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 1:12 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

Ascott58

Right up until it happened, I wasn’t actively planning on anything happening. I thought I was in control and was certainly not the type of person who cheated. Except that I did.

I felt the same way many of the WS here do. I felt I deserved it, my wife didn’t love me anymore and really wouldn’t care if she found out. There really is a cheater script and most of us follow it to a T.

I did feel some small pangs of guilt immediately following each encounter and from time to time when I was with my wife. But I was great at compartmentalizing so I was able to push those feelings down. I finally grew a conscious and ended it but not before a lot of time had passed.

IMO one of the most torturous things is the question of “How could you do this?” You try and apply some sort of logic to make sense if it all. The unfortunate thing is, there is no good answer. I’ve been here for over three years and I see poor BS twist themselves into pretzels trying to understand how it could happen. IC, books, retreats etc lots of time, money and tears when it all boils down to this.

We were selfish, entitled POS who only cared about our wants and needs. We wanted to cheat, so we did and the consequences be damned.

Hi Thumos.

I’m sorry your WW has put you through all of this.

Before the safe partner question, SI. I think there are a lot of voices here, both in favor of R and against. But mostly I think it depends on the situation of the BS and the WS. What your WW might view as anti-R could just be people advising you to hold her accountable and that she needs to do certain things and not rugsweep her A. That’s actually the opposite of being anti-R. That’s being pro-R and giving you the steps to get there.

Being a safe partner to my BH and now to me means complete honesty and transparency about everything. Especially my A. My BH is a very straight, honest type of person (his trying to come to terms with my dishonesty and lack of integrity was a whole separate hurdle on top of everything else). After DDay, he basically sat me down and said he needed the whole story with all the gory details and any lying and we were over. And I knew he meant it. Our M was in the balance and if I couldn’t be honest with our M on the line, when could he ever trust me to be honest and how important to me was our M then really? So I didn’t hold back. Told him everything. And I passed the polygraph too.

If your WW is still lying to you, the question is why? Self preservation? Rugsweeping? It seems silly and sad to me now. She’s worried if she tells you the truth you might leaver her and D but because she’s not being open with you you’re questioning your M and might end it too. She needs to stop trying to control the outcome and just be authentic. From what I’ve seen here, many BS’s just want that. At least they’ll know what they’re dealing with and then can decide about their M. And the honesty helps them know if they have someone that they can move forward with.

Is she a safe partner? Well, is she being honest, transparent and authentic? Then how can she be considered safe? How can you build trust in your M when there’s no trust about the most important thing that has happened to your M? An A destroys trust. Being especially open and transparent helps rebuild it. Lying further just buries it.

What kind of M do you want? How can you R without knowing what your really R-ing from? Some people can. Are you okay with saying that you’ll never get the full picture, start from now with a clean slate and move forward? Some people can. My BH couldn’t for example. If I had failed my polygraph I hope he’d give me another chance at taking it. Failing it twice would have meant I’d be divorced now. Obviously it’s your choice. But I would have a heart to heart with her and ask her these kind of questions and explain what you need. My BH told me the worst thing I could have done to him after DDay was lie to him. More than finding out what I did to him and the graphic details which was like killing him and over with each revelation, he said he preferred that than any lie I would have said to protect him or myself. Explain that to her. And then if you feel you need it, reschedule the polygraph.

Those are my thoughts. I hope they help.

My question is does my WW seem like a safe partner to you, her fellow WS’s?

There is really no way for us to know or answer that. If I give her the benefit of the doubt and say "Yeah, she probably learned her lesson here", that could be true. There has been a lot of pain and she might not be one to ever forget that, and it could be enough to make it never happen again. Many people cheat once and they never do it again. I think that the best predictor is did they find their whys and can they demonstrate the changes they made that would make that not be a why in the future.

For me, my affair happened in the middle of a pretty big existential crisis. Part of what I have worked on post affair has more to do with reinforcing my coping mechanisms, being more self aware of my own feelings, not numbing, etc. So that was a big part of my work. Believe it or not, I never had lust or boundary issues with other men outside of the affair.

So, it's really more than "buckle down and be a better wife" though, I will say I did a lot of that. I am so much more aware of what love and commitment mean and will be more sacrificial in areas I never was before. But, in other ways, I had an issue with overgiving before. The difference is I was just overgiving anything and everything and really not doing the things that mattered the most to my husband. I had created a role for myself in the marriage and it really didn't serve me well, or him well. So, the relationship work is also important for R, but it's not as helpful when it comes to being "safe".

BUT I will say - after all the pain we both experienced, it likely would have been enough to keep me from ever cheating again. Does not cheating define safe for you? To me, that's maybe even the easier box to check?

I see Mr. Clean got called out for saying he can't predict with certainty about whether he will ever do it again. In the WS forum, I once said I would never do it again and I truly still feel I mean that but most of the BS said that was arrogant to say and not being vigilant. My feeling is I know I will not do that again because I am vigilant and plan to continue to be. Those who said they will never be sure are the ones most BS agreed with so a lot of BS would see that statement Mr. Clean Slate said as healthy.

But aside from being "safe" that doesn't make for a full reconciliation. That's an important one to check off, but it's hard to picture reconciliation without feeling satisfied the BS knows all the information they want to know about. To me, the affair has to be an open book at all times. Meaning there is never any hesitation to sit down and talk about it or answer questions. Checking in. Showing concern over the damage that you caused. That is an action that shows and reassures love.

I don't think of the time of anyone's affairs they tend to really weigh the damage. We often operate on antedoctal information that is usually not even first person. So, I think there are many WS who are surprised it would be an issue 3 years out. And without any sort of corroboration of that being normal, and fully understanding Trauma I could certainly see a WS just thinking YOU specifically are having a hard time getting over it. And that creates another tension. Only you can decide from your standpoint if she is doing a good job or a bad job in this area.

There are people on SI that do push on buttons that if you linger on too long I do think it could delay healing. Most any example I will point at has to do with man to man toxic masculinity. It's almost like egging on the other's worst fears and saying things that are further emasculating. I wouldn't say it's always present but I see it ALOT on JFO and with new BH's. And, I think it's very well intended because they want the BH to see the truth of their situation, so I am not putting anyone down. I have specifically seen people really belittle you for not doing this or that (things that are perceived as tougher or more manly), and as long as that doesn't create more mental stress and issues for you then I see nothing wrong with SI. There is for sure more that is right about SI than wrong. And, I agree with Mrs. Walloped as usual that some people are pushing for her accountability, which is different than insulting your masculinity. I think you are balanced enough to know the difference.

The other thing that is potentially dangerous about SI is we only see one side of the story often here. So, the advice given is based on one person's perceptions only. This could be a skewed way of getting advice for some. However, I have seen you back up and explain something because you can see that the advice was slanted based on one of your statements.

Overall, SI has done nothing but strengthen my understanding of what I have done. It has been unhealthy for me at times, yes, because I was unhealthy. I will say that SI can be very hard for the second spouse to join after the other one has been a member. I remember Mrs. Walloped being bombarded and answering for posts that she had never even seen from early in their recovery. I watched my own husband get greeted in perplexing ways of "he had better not mess it up" and that "Hikingout grieves for you to open up to her emotionally". While I think both of us appreciated the support, it was strange that a BS was being greeted this way. I don't think my husband really ever engaged this site seriously again due to that. He still reads a lot of my posts, but any more I often will go home and say "I read this, and I said this but what do you think about it?" This is a long winded way of saying that with two people on here there can be a sense of there being a third party voting in your marriage. You have to make sure that you and she have the biggest vote. It's not as bad when the spouses are just responding to things but when they are actually building posts there are a lot of sides taken.

Anyway, those are just some different thoughts I have for you. I have seen you grow tremendously on this site. You came here very closed off, and non-communicative with your wife about how you were really feeling. She may see the fact that you got more forceful on some things and started communicating your anger, grief, etc and associating that as a negative effect of the site. She may not realize that those feelings you were just trying to bury them and coming here gave you some insight that what you were feeling was common and ways other people dealt with their WS. I am sure that does overall feel negative to her because it ceased the comfortable rug-sweeping.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:46 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

Question for WS. When you first had sex. Did you plan it or did it just happen? Like my husband says it just happened but he took her to his hotel room.(they had been talking for a few weeks. He met her out of town )

Yes. The sex was pretty much planned. The affair was long distance, so we had to orchestrate meeting up out of town. It wasn't a given, we'd given all this talk to opting out, etc.

And was you thinking about the BS?

No. By the time I had the affair I had engaged in emotional numbing to the extent I was fairly calloused. My resentment for my husband was high, and I felt entitled to do whatever I wanted. I dehumanized him, and was more concerned with getting the "highs" of the affair, any thinking about "reality" was shut down because it would have interfered with what I wanted to be doing.

Like right before you "stuck it in" did you know you was about to commit adultery?

I had numbed myself on that as well by then. By the time sex occurred I had been desensitized to many things because so many other boundaries had already been broken. The affair had it's own momentum. I can remember crying after a few of the early boundary crosses, but then pushing that aside and double downing on things the next day. I was completely just checked out while on the business trip. I cried all the way back through all my flights home. I was hiding in the airport sobbing. But, there was no connection inside on why I was crying. I didn't understand myself at this point. It might be worth noting that I was also in the middle of emotional exhaustion (which is today's terms of a nervous breakdown), and cried easily and often and I was really undone. I couldn't relate the fact that the crying was likely my grief over what I had done, and I didn't want to relate it to that because the only thing that was giving me these hits of dopamine was the affair.

How did u move forward? What did u feel like after the sex was over? How did you go home to your BS and look them in the eye? Did u know this would kill them? Did u care? Did u feel horrible?

I think a lot of what happens in affairs is pure avoidance. You avoid thinking about what you just did with the AP, you avoid thinking that you are going to be caught. You avoid, avoid, avoid. Everything is taken day by day and you just keep thinking that you will cross that bridge when you come to it. A cheater will sit and justify their actions to themselves, they will rewrite marital history, they will do whatever to not face themselves. I did have moments of feeling horrible, but I just wanted to change that channel as much as I could.

If yes then why did u do it again? I just cant see myself being able to do these things without thinking of my husband.

I did not do it again. But, I would have because I was so entrenched in my own justifications and intoxicated by the highs of the affair. The affair ended here though, with the AP's dday. For me, I was really miserable the year leading up to the affair. I was numbing myself until I had become callous, and I blamed my unhappiness unfairly onto my husband. I was propping myself up by the AP. It was disgusting, it was childish, and it showed me that I would bend my integrity based on feelings and whatever I wanted to do at the time. It has been a long way back to change these things in myself, and to accept that I did this because I wanted to. I spent a lot of time identifying WHY I wanted to, and HOW I was comfortable doing it. So, I totally understand that you are healthy person of character why you would not be able to picture yourself doing something where you were so callous. I would have had a hard time picturing myself doing something like that for the decades I was married prior.

I remember Mrs. Walloped being bombarded and answering for posts that she had never even seen from early in their recovery

Good times.

You miss the point. What good is my word after having cheated and lied? Even 5 years on I know that there is always that niggly feeling my BW gets if I miss answering a call, or whatever.

Actions and behaviours longterm are all I can really offer in a solid way.

How can an honest inability to promise be more reassuring than a promise that's hard for you to keep but at least you made?

Let me clarify a bit more. Let's say we just accept that the trust is shattered forever and your promises are now meaningless. How is reconciliation possible under these conditions?

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:18 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)]

thisisfine,

We had a really long discussion with a lot of BS input one day on this. It started when I said I know I will never do it again. And, I still disagree that's a "arrogant" thing to say or that it means I am not vigilant over my my thoughts, behaviors, etc. But, the majority of BS's did feel that Mr. Clean Slate's way of looking at it was healthier and they thought that mine was dangerous.

I think the whole thing is, if we said we would never do it, then we did, how much does "we never will do it again" weigh? I believe he is saying that by staying engaged with his wife and vigilant over himself that is behavior his wife can trust.

That simply would not have worked with my husband, he wants the assurance that I do believe that I will never do it again, and he still wants that backed up with actions. It's a slightly different way to go about it, but Mr. Clean Slate is not really being as wishy washy as it's probably coming across to you. He and his wife are 5 years out and he is using whatever language and vision they have agreed on. I hope that helps explain it, but their way of looking at it is very popular here.

Different strokes for different folks is a good enough answer I suppose.

It seems ridiculous on the face of it that I would spend presumably the rest of my life with someone that couldn't make the most basic vow of faithfulness.

Could you imagine a vow renewal ceremony to this effect:

"I promise to love you, for a while, I guess

I promise to try my hardest not to cheat on you

I promise to stay with you through thick

I promise to stay with you in health

I promise that as long as the going doesn't get too rough, I'll stick around!"

My husband certainly agrees with what you are saying. He wanted renewed promises. But, he also wanted the actions behind those promises. Some feel the promises mean nothing due to our track record with them and prefer to only get the actions. It makes sense, but I understand what you are saying too.

It seems ridiculous on the face of it that I would spend presumably the rest of my life with someone that couldn't make the most basic vow of faithfulness.

Could you imagine a vow renewal ceremony to this effect:

"I promise to love you, for a while, I guess

I promise to try my hardest not to cheat on you

I promise to stay with you through thick

I promise to stay with you in health

I promise that as long as the going doesn't get too rough, I'll stick around!"

I had this same struggle as TIF. My WW also said she couldn’t guarantee faithfulness and at point implied I was sanctimonious because I saw the vows we took as a blood oath in black and white terms, implying of course

That she saw them differently. We argued about this a lot in the first 6 mos.

Why would a WW say something like that?

Do WS here believe they had a contextual, relativistic view of the vows before their affair?

Are there WS here who still do?

@This0is0Fine0

I think my husband cares more about the action. Talk is cheap. I did what I did. It had nothing to do with him, regardless of any meaningless smoke and mirrors I might have been putting up for myself.

I get where MCS is coming from, because whenever I deal in absolutes with my husband he's pretty quick to add "and if you did, it's your problem." He cares more about me saying, "here's what I'm working on," instead of, "I'll never do that again."

[This message edited by leavingorbit at 3:42 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]