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Then why lay out her seeing her IC as a non-negotiable? Theoretically, if you're not looking to R with her, you don't have any leverage to hold her to that. And even she knows that if time has passed and she has not reached out and scheduled an appointment in response to your demand.

If R is still off the table, let go of her healing. It's no longer your responsibility nor have you had much success in trying to get her to do it without putting the marriage on the line. Even then, progress has been questionable. She'll seek it out if she wants to and her wanting it will net far better results than her doing it to appease you.

Nekonamida, this is very good perspective and advice. Thank you. I particularly like the advice of laying aside a sense of responsibility for her healing. I have had that and it's what led me to agree to go to Retrouvaille, to forestall divorce when the lockdowns began, and to want her to see through the RCIA process.

Hi Thumos,

I'm new here and I'm doing some backreading on your story. I'm so sorry that you're still hurting until now.

I have few questions for you. Although I might find some answers by reading through your story or you can point me to them.
1. Did the AP ever reached out to you to say sorry? Because if not, he doesn't feel any remorse at all. I believe you also need to tell other friends' to check on their wives as he might do the same thing to them.
2. I believe the AP's wife didn't care at all. I didn't find any clue that she's divorcing the AP.
3. Did you tell your older son about the A? Since he's legal adult, I think he should be informed.
4. I know you constantly bump into AP and it causes lots of triggers for you. Have you considered moving out from the area to another town/city?
5. Also, have you confirmed if they really did it once or multiple times? Based on your initial write up, you found multiple VS lingerie from her closet. I believe they had the intention to use those during their tryst. Sorry if this is overboard, you may remove if not appropriate.

Not sure if these have ready answers from your posts as I have only started the R part and haven't gotten enough details yet.
Also, goodluck on your D or R. I believe you parked on it right now.

Not sure if these have ready answers from your posts as I have only started the R part and haven't gotten enough details yet.

Also, goodluck on your D or R. I believe you parked on it right now.

I don't mind the questions. Parked for now, although at the very least a therapeutic separation period is looking increasingly likely, especially in light of some recent conversations. Maybe this fall.

1. No AP did not. I wouldn't want any contact with him. He doesn't feel any remorse. He was a friend, but I have since learned he is known among a large contingent in my community as being a real douchebag.

2. Your assessment of the AP's wife is partially correct. She is a shallow, materialistic person who cheated on her husband with my WW's AP in the first place. That's how they ended up married. She is interested in access to the AP's family money. AP bought her off by building her a new custom home using his daddy's money (including property his daddy owned).

3. My son is not older or an adult. He's still quite young, 11. However, my WW and he have had a long, painful conversation and he knows what is age appropriate.

4. Oddly enough the constant running into AP has tapered off. I think he intentionally takes side roads from main thoroughfares in my town, and it has been a lot easier overall since we moved our son to a new school. That said, I do still have to occasionally come into contact with him or people he knows, and of course I'm still living in the house where it happened. Moving is not in the cards right now for several reasons, but it is a medium term goal.

5. I have not confirmed multiple. I strongly suspect more than "just once." Among other circumstantial reasons for deducing this, my WW only disclosed three years later some relevant details about a certain night in question I had already suspected. And she also failed her polygraph on the question of more than once. I think it's safe to conclude at least twice.

Ultimately I've concluded it matters less than the initial sex betrayal, the gaslighting and the aftermath. Trust has been shattered, I don't see her in the same way, and it feels unlikely that I ever will.

With my trust already at zero, her foot-dragging and blame-shifting after D-Day for about three years steadily eroded my affection to the point where we're now much more like FWB. I certainly "love" her as the mother of my children. I find her to be a good sex partner. She is making a consistent effort to be a "good wife" and this has been going on for a good long while. She is constantly doing acts of service and kindness.

Unfortunately sometimes you can't just "nice" back the love. Beyond that, I don't feel deeply "in love" with her.

I've been upfront with her about this.

The way I've been thinking about this lately is that once adultery occurs it's like creating a rift in time and space. It is an irrevocable act, and the marriage is "murdered," which is probably why the transgression of adultery is on the top 10 list of no-no's -- and why it is given as the only legitimate reason for divorce in the New Testament.

Lastly to clarify on the lingerie: I found a bag of new bras and some panties from Victoria's Secret. The bras weren't all that "sexy" -- more like replacement bras. I did find a pair of soiled panties I believe had residue from their sex act I hid these away for testing but my WW found them and washed them quickly, leading me to conclude my suspicions were correct.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:11 AM, June 21st (Monday)]

Hi Thumos,

Thanks for your reply.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I can see it, your indecisiveness constitutes to everything that is happening now. You claimed you made wrong choices since DDay. And it's also clear as day that your wife is still lying to you up to this moment. So many evidences to prove that.
1. Of course the failed poly test.
2. The timeline wherein she only stated they only did once but further evidences prove they did it, per your other thread, at least 2x. For myself, again, correct me if I'm overboard, it was a full blown A. It's not just 1x, not 2x but multiple times. I'm basing my observation from your previous threads.
a. You can't just park your car somewhere to talk, especially with a known womanizer such as AP. He knows what he's doing and he knows how to get women.
b. You can't just go to places and do nothing. No! They had the intention to have sex, thus go somewhere to do it.
c. Those date nights with your kids, there's a big reason for it. Because, he has a reason to drop off you wife and your kid at your home and since your kids were bestfriends, they will be immersed in their own activities in your kid's room while your WW and AP do their own thing. See what I mean?
d. There's a reason for your fear that they might do it again since your wife will have at least once a month to see him from her work. The reason for your fear is, they got away with it and they're still getting away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist if I may say. There's also the lack of morality shown by AP in which he still continues to try to initiate contact with your WW.
e. Believe me when I say to you that there's still spark when your WW sees the AP. They shared the love hormones together, so it's still there.
f. AP can get away with anything, OBS doesn't want to divorce him. Why would she? She will lose everything since AP is her source of income. OBS knows that her WH is a known adulterer and he gets away with it with her coz that's how their relationship started. So OBS knows she can't change him. Thus, AP knows that he can continue on his gigolo ways and gets every woman he wants, that's what he is!

3. Also, when your kid grows up, he will show a lot of disrespect to your wife. You know why? When he realizes that they used him for their A. He will show disgust to your wife.
4. Last thing, your WW had the intention to cheat, not necessarily with AP but it just so happened that AP was there at the right time. You claimed you're from a small town where everybody knows everyone. Your WW clearly knows that AP is a known womanizer. Why didn't she move away? See? All along, she had the intention to cheat. You don't involve yourself with a person with no morals if you want to be righteous. I'm pretty sure your WW knows AP's history.

Again, apologies if my observation is inaccurate. I'm only basing it based on what I've read from your threads. The trickle truthing is still happening right now, in fact, you never knew the truth at all.
Good luck!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I can see it, your indecisiveness constitutes to everything that is happening now. You claimed you made wrong choices since DDay.

it's a mixed bag. I've made some strong choices and some weak ones. I would say I've done some things right, and other things I've had to learn the painfully hard way. Hindsight is 20/20

further evidences prove they did it, per your other thread, at least 2x.

This is overstating things. I'm always careful not to overstate. I have some circumstantial evidence that points to 2x. I have nothing beyond that.

You can't just park your car somewhere to talk, especially with a known womanizer such as AP. He knows what he's doing and he knows how to get women.

This is known.

Those date nights with your kids, there's a big reason for it. Because, he has a reason to drop off you wife and your kid at your home and since your kids were bestfriends, they will be immersed in their own activities in your kid's room while your WW and AP do their own thing. See what I mean?

This is also known. Although because of the layout of our house and frequent drop ins from teens, it's unlikely sex was happening during this time. However, copping feels and kissing are all but certain.

There's a reason for your fear that they might do it again since your wife will have at least once a month to see him from her work. The reason for your fear is, they got away with it and they're still getting away with it. Not even a slap on the wrist if I may say. There's also the lack of morality shown by AP in which he still continues to try to initiate contact with your WW.

I actually don't fear this. You may be reading some older thoughts of mine. They don't see each other at her work at all.

I'm not worried about this for a variety of reasons I'll choose not to go into detail about here.

Believe me when I say to you that there's still spark when your WW sees the AP. They shared the love hormones together, so it's still there.

I agree to some extent. I also think she feels revulsion now. It's probably a mixed bag.

AP can get away with anything, OBS doesn't want to divorce him. Why would she? She will lose everything since AP is her source of income. OBS knows that her WH is a known adulterer and he gets away with it with her coz that's how their relationship started. So OBS knows she can't change him. Thus, AP knows that he can continue on his gigolo ways and gets every woman he wants, that's what he is!

Good summary. It's likely he's developed at least one other affair, in my view. That's not really in my wheelhouse, so not much I can do about that. His wife is choosing to remain on the gravy train of his family's money. That's the life she wants. He's not quite the gigolo you've painted him as, but I do think he knows how to get in women's heads and play them.

Last thing, your WW had the intention to cheat, not necessarily with AP but it just so happened that AP was there at the right time. You claimed you're from a small town where everybody knows everyone. Your WW clearly knows that AP is a known womanizer. Why didn't she move away? See? All along, she had the intention to cheat. You don't involve yourself with a person with no morals if you want to be righteous. I'm pretty sure your WW knows AP's history.

Not a small town. A suburb of a big city. I agree that her AP simply presented at the right time. I think it's overstating things to say she set out to cheat. I don't think that accurately describes a lot of wayward spouses. They aren't criminal masterminds. If they were, they would have gotten away with it. I don't think my WW knew AP's background from the outset, but once she got involved with him she knew he was exactly the kind of "man" who likes to sleep with other men's wives.

In fact, I've told my WW that (aside from myself) I question her judgement in men and worry she'll bring a shady man into my son's life should we divorce.

As for the trickle truthing, I think you're correct. And that's why I'm in limbo.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:05 AM, June 21st (Monday)]

Thanks for your reply. Good luck to you and on whatever choice you'll make in the future. Whatever you're choice is, that's the right decision.
All the best!

As for the trickle truthing, I think you're correct. And that's why I'm in limbo.

From what I’ve seen most remain in limbo because they keep themselves there.

Thumos,

I have a stupid question, forgive it if you have answered it before...

Has your STXW/WW/whatever she should be called, ever REALLY apologized.

What I mean "really" apologized I am speaking about.

1. The affair

2. The type of person she really is (one who can gaslight you to the point of taking medication).

3. How she damaged your young sons life

I'm quite certain this list could go on, but I am just curious because the only time I read such thing from you she said "I'm sorry for allowing you to become vulnerable to another woman", or some such nonsense.

For all your writings it is clear she is a really bad person to you and I assume others while carefully hiding it beneath a veneer of respectability.

Plus while you speak of her intelligence, I frankly do not see it. I do however see a very manipulative and parasitic person who is never happy with what they have in hand.....

In my experience these type of people never take responsibly for what they are and the damage they cause.

1. The affair

2. The type of person she really is (one who can gaslight you to the point of taking medication).

3. How she damaged your young sons life

I'm quite certain this list could go on, but I am just curious because the only time I read such thing from you she said "I'm sorry for allowing you to become vulnerable to another woman", or some such nonsense.

For all your writings it is clear she is a really bad person to you and I assume others while carefully hiding it beneath a veneer of respectability.

Yes, she has. Quite a bit and in detail actually. This is where postings on SI can be a kind of "unreliable narrator" because you're hearing things from my side, and my side tends to focus on my pain and anguish.

Here's an example of an apology from just the other day, "I am sorry beyond words for the anger, pain, triggers, sadness and all of the other negative emotions I have caused you to experience on a daily basis. My pen and paper cannot express fully the deep sorrow I feel over my actions. I did this to myself but it was done to you with no choice or say in the matter at all. Thank you for still being married to me. Thank you for continuing to share your life with me. Thank you for your leadership in our home and for being a wonderful father to our children. I love you."

As for what kind of person she is, this is difficult to say. I saw things during her affair and after that are hard to "unsee." I heard things. I looked into her eyes and watched her stone cold lie to me without pause. I watched the "space alien" effect I know so many betrayed husbands are familiar with. I also have watched her act with consistent and real kindness for the past three years. I think this would be hard to fake, as BFTG has pointed out previously. In any case, make of that what you will.

I've been giving serious thought to a therapeutic separation of no less than 30 days so I can see what I feel like apart from her for a time. We have been discussing this the past few weeks.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:50 PM, June 23rd (Wednesday)]

The point to be resolved here is how can you be sure of that, even if she is sincerely apologizing? And this skepticism is not your fault, she caused it in the worst possible way, even among the cases we see at SI.

She's being so kind and understanding now, out of fear of losing what she had and didn't appreciate before. She can continue to act like this for the rest of her life. But what matters is not how people are, but how they can be. She already showed it.

I may have missed it in your earlier posts, but did your WW every discuss her whys?

I may have missed it in your earlier posts, but did your WW every discuss her whys?

No. She did some blameshifting and rewriting the history of the marriage early on as justifications.

She hasn't really come up with anything substantive since then.

I’m wondering, if that’s the case, is there no burning desire on your part to understand why she cheated? Is it past the point that you care anymore?

Almost every poster that I can recall, whether they’re in the process of R, completed R, Divorced, or are in limbo, at a minimum, has uncovered the stated why’s. I’m not sure how you can remain in this state of limbo indefinitely without getting to the bottom of why, as well as the unanswered questions you have.

I can’t see this ending well. Maybe when your youngest gets out of HS, which is a long way off, the plug gets pulled. In your current status, can you actually envision retiring in bliss with your WW? Your posts come off as logical and analytical, but your coexistence as it now stands with your WW is the antithesis. It’s difficult to wrap one’s head around it.

Almost every poster that I can recall, whether they’re in the process of R, completed R, Divorced, or are in limbo, at a minimum, has uncovered the stated why’s.

Seems to me that "the whys" is such an intangible concept. For a classic mid-life crisis A, which Mrs. Thumos' was (and a lot of others), the first level of "why" almost always boils down to a WS who gets him or herself worked up into a feedback loop around some version of "I'm miserable in this marriage and I deserve better/more/different." That and the happenstance of an AP who tickles the funnybone of whatever it is that irks the WS.

The next level, the one fewer WS's get to, is: Why did you decide that the appropriate response to marital unhappiness was to sneak around for sex with somebody else rather than try to work with your spouse to make the marriage better? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Thumos has never gotten to that.

As a corollary, many WS's, when they figure this out, also realize what a bottom-feeding parasite the AP was/is. I also don't perceive that Mrs. Thumos has gotten there.

There is such a thin line between the whys and excuses. I've always wondered how anyone, including the WS, can tell the difference.

Seems to me that "the whys" is such an intangible concept. For a classic mid-life crisis A, which Mrs. Thumos' was (and a lot of others), the first level of "why" almost always boils down to a WS who gets him or herself worked up into a feedback loop around some version of "I'm miserable in this marriage and I deserve better/more/different." That and the happenstance of an AP who tickles the funnybone of whatever it is that irks the WS.

The next level, the one fewer WS's get to, is: Why did you decide that the appropriate response to marital unhappiness was to sneak around for sex with somebody else rather than try to work with your spouse to make the marriage better? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Thumos has never gotten to that.

This is exactly my situation - needless to say that my WGF never got to “the next level” I can live with that in D/S but I expect more for R - hence my current trajectory

TD

Here's an example of an apology from just the other day, "I am sorry beyond words for the anger, pain, triggers, sadness and all of the other negative emotions I have caused you to experience on a daily basis. My pen and paper cannot express fully the deep sorrow I feel over my actions. I did this to myself but it was done to you with no choice or say in the matter at all. Thank you for still being married to me. Thank you for continuing to share your life with me. Thank you for your leadership in our home and for being a wonderful father to our children. I love you."

These are some convincing words and I can see why you’re still hanging in waiting for the actions to follow

Almost every poster that I can recall, whether they’re in the process of R, completed R, Divorced, or are in limbo, at a minimum, has uncovered the stated why’s

Personally, i heard a revolving, shapeshifting, and groundless series of "why's" that made so little sense to me that i straight up told my ex that I would not put up with having to listen to them anymore, as they were obviously pulled straight from a rearward-facing orifice.

I know what her why is. It's this. "Because i wanted to."

I know what her why is. It's this. "Because i wanted to."

This. That’s the only excuse my ex needed to betray me.