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However, there is still a way forward for Thumos without those keys. He just has to be willing to find and use an alternate door or window to find his path.

Could you say a bit more about your thoughts on this?

Thumos, it’s just the path you make on your own. If you will never get the truth from your WW, how else can you move forward? Rugsweeping won’t work, and she stays a trigger with her practice of omission. So, the healing path you discover independently probably doesn’t include her. It may start with a separation and beginning to address the issues that you fear about a D.

She’s unwilling to let you decide if the truth must end in a D. She seems pretty convinced it will, otherwise how do you explain her behavior? She also seems willing to gamble that you’ll sacrifice yourself before your M, and so far she’s been right.

I don’t blame you for being in limbo, these types of decisions are difficult. The hard part from the outside looking in is that it seems to consume so much of you.

[This message edited by Sanibelredfish at 5:11 PM, July 1st (Thursday)]

I mean, brother, it's all consuming. Hard to describe.

So, the healing path you discover independently probably doesn’t include her. It may start with a separation and beginning to address the issues that you fear about a D.

I think this is right and one of the reasons why I'd like to do a therapeutic separation. It's a trial run to shake my brain and body loose from where I'm stuck.

The hard part from the outside looking in is that it seems to consume so much of you.

I agree so much with this, as it was I'm sure a major factor in your hospital stay. Thumos you are your own best healer, take the advice from yourself. A WS will crack the earth for their BS if they are truly ready to heal them, is she doing that?

I have to ask...sex is a big issue with you. Me too, love the shit out of it, as everyone should. You have spoken about it many times, and made a post awhile back after talking with your IC about something he said. The issue was how a man responds to his wife/partner's body after she has given herself to the AP. It was a contrast in how a BW responds and it was extremely thought provoking.

Is this "ravenous" sex that is going on now, that is clearly something beyond HB (your words) starting to cloud what you feel you should do? Then I ask, is this a bad thing? Only you know your WW, is this an act of desperation or truly something deep-inside her that has "clicked" and she once again sees you in that pre affaire Thumos glow.

Then I ask, if that is the case, does it even matter anymore?

Also you should repost that story from JFO.

Thumos

I mean, brother, it's all consuming.

I understand, and you have my empathy.

I think Thumos needs to clearly explain this strategic thought process to his WW. Look honey, I’ve already played this out 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road. I see the future. Do you see the future like I do?

This is the exact conversation that led to our separation

It played out something like this

I explained that her sister, her parents and her grandparents all rugswept. She agreed

I asked her if any of those couples had really gotten over it and had a good relationship today, one that she would like to have, she said no

I told her what I needed to avoid that situation and she couldn’t give me those things.

She agreed that she didn’t want to live with the “elephant in the room” forever, so separation was the only solution.

@Thumos

Is your wife aware that your relationship won’t get better without what you ask for, that you won’t let it drop, that you are not just going to “get over it” without these things?

TD and Thumos. The dynamic associated with this is that one person values the relationship/marriage more than the other. That dynamic is fairly obvious and apparent given that the WW cheated snd the betrayed husband did not.

But in the aftermath of the A, when both parties claim to want to R, but the WG/WW cannot bring themselves to go that one extra step, yet TD and Thumos both want to stay together snd R with their WG and WW respectively, you wonder how one could remain in this situation, post affair, where the WG/WW still don’t value the relationship as much as TD and Thumos.

It almost seems intolerable. TD found this dynamic intolerable and pulled the plug. With thumos the jury is still out. But even if Thumos takes the next step, and in desperation his WW finally tells the entire truth, he still knows deep down that he values his marriage more than his WW.

In essence, in these types of situations, the BH ends up eating two shit sandwiches. Maybe what I’m saying is simply restating the obvious…

The intent to divorce, followed by a plan to separate (for months) and just a short time apart (one week) was transformative for me.

Everything is uncertain, but there is a baseline and a hypothetical. People say you have to be willing to lose the M to save it a lot.

Right now M is your baseline and D/S is your hypothetical. That needs to flip, at least momentarily, or weighing your options will always be clouded with loss avoidance bias for the M. If you have a true and real desire to leave the M. A vision of the future without the M. Only then can you assign some value to what you are giving up by not taking the D path.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:32 AM, July 2nd (Friday)]

My WW's affair was most certainly of the cake-eating variety. I really don't know how else to characterize it. She wanted the feelz and the tingles and thrills of a younger man who was feeding her a lotta bullshit and attention. She wanted it, she went for it, she could have given two shits whether it hurt me, and she thought she could pull it off without me ever finding out. The convo I captured with VAR reveals that.

I think you're right about that. There is an element of "sorry she got caught, but not remorseful she did something so fucked up" about her. Perhaps even "extremely sorry she got caught and doing as much as she can do to avoid consequences."

It almost seems intolerable. TD found this dynamic intolerable and pulled the plug. With thumos the jury is still out. But even if Thumos takes the next step, and in desperation his WW finally tells the entire truth, he still knows deep down that he values his marriage more than his WW

I think the reality isn’t this clear cut. I may have initiated S and Thumos may still be in R or limbo but in actual fact from what I read there is very little difference day to day between my relationship with Mrs TD and Thumos relationship with his WW.

I suspect if Thumos initiates D that in the short term (like myself) day to day life won’t change dramatically.

I believe he is a stand up moral guy and decency, kindness & honestly are his key attributes, they make him who he is. Maybe more important to him than protecting his own mental and physical health. That’s how I feel, that I don’t want this situation to change who I am.

As I mentioned in a previous reply in this post, making that decision to S, to split finances, buy my own house, do some things for myself including creating a new social circle who don’t know either of us has been life changing. I won’t say I am healed but I got back somewhat near to my pre A self almost overnight.

The fact that I still live (currently) with WGF and my children probably makes this all sound like hogwash and I’ve been trying to understand why I’ve seen this change in myself.

The conclusion that I’ve come to is that I have put some defences in place, I now have my own money, my own house, my own life which she cannot touch, that alone may be why I feel better when day to day little has really changed.

So long story short - how we choose to label our situations S D R or limbo - there isn’t all that much difference today

TD

TD - I don’t think you fully understood my point. I’m not talking about how you and Thumos interact day to day with your WGF and WW respectively.

My point is that if your WGF valued your relationship as much as you did, then she would agree to do the things that you’ve requested to R. The fact that she’s not willing to do so, snd as a result end your 25 year relationship, shows that you value her and relationship more than she does. Same with Thumos. He values his wife and marriage more than she does.

Now, this is always the implication, as they are the ones who cheated snd you and Thumos did not. However, post affair, your WGF and Thumos’s WW are still showing you both that you value them more than they value you. That was my simple point.

I believe you get that point, which is why you chose to separate. However, thumos… I would ask Thumos, before the A how would you rate your wife and marriage, snd he would probably answer, I rated it a 10. Now, maybe not so much a 10. However, the effort that I’m putting towards trying to remain married is rated a 10. And, by association, I must still highly value my wife - maybe an 8.

My wife, on the other hand, pre and during A, must have rated me and the M a 5. Now, because WW doesn’t want to lose me snd the marriage, she is acting like a Stepford wife, which on the surface appears that she rates me snd the marriage a 10. However, because she refuses to do as I ask, re tell the truth, reveals that she really only values me snd the marriage maybe a 5.

Thus, TD values his WGF, and Thumos his WW, more than they value you. Can one remain in a relationship, post A, where one values the other/relationship, more than the other?

Walloped’s WW, through full transparency and disclosure post A (hence true remorse) showed that she valued her husband and marriage as much as Walloped did. When you compare mrs Wallop, the quintessential remorseful WW, side by side to TD’s WGF snd Thumos’ WW, the difference is stark snd plain as day.

Plenty of R BH accept this state of inequality. The question is whether Thumos can and will.

This was my simple point.

Another thought concerns Thumos’ WWs remorseful letter with money to take his “vacation”, or as he puts it, therapeutic separation.

The Devils Advocate in me wonders if his WW has an ulterior motive here. It doesn’t necessarily smack as a dare, but that’s the first thing that came to mind when I read it. Picture - I’m extremely confident that you won’t divorce me, even if I send you off on your therapeutic separation. And, I look like the good guy for paying for it.

All of this, despite the fact that I minimized, TT, deleted texts, acted like this totally unrecognizable person on the VAR, failed the poly, mocked you for your sexual naivety, etc. I can get away with all of this, plus not disclosing the full truth to this day, so please take your vacation that I’ll pay for. And, when you return, you’ll still remain married to me no matter what.

I guess the word I’m looking for is hubris on the part of thumos’ WW. I wonder if this thought popped into anyone else’s head?

Reminds me of waitedwaytoolong. I think he stayed in limbo for about 4-5 years until he realized it was something he could not get over.

But even if Thumos takes the next step, and in desperation his WW finally tells the entire truth, he still knows deep down that he values his marriage more than his WW.

Part of your dilemma is that you cannot unhear what she said on that VAR convo. When you get an unfiltered version of another person's thoughts about you, it is really hard to talk yourself back from that. It reminded me of the scene in First Knight when Arthur (Sean Connery) walks in on Guinevere (Julia Ormond) embracing Lancelot (Richard Gere). She later pleads with him, "It means nothing! What can I say?! What can I do?!". Arthur says resignedly, "Look at me - the way you looked at him!" Her face reveals she is unable.

That is more of a "falling in love" (infatuation, I know) situation than what happened here, but the scene does capture the irreversible dynamic of actions causing a rift in time, as you like to say. I think you could get past this if you saw she was a truly safe partner. There is some level of acceptance that is unavoidable because the deeds cannot be undone, and I think you know this, your patience demonstrates this. She needs to see that full transparency is dangerous but worth the risk. She needs to grasp that you are taking a real risk as well if you accept her transparency in all of its ugliness.

I wish you the best.

Bump

Hello Thumos. I've not posted in quite some time. I wasn't able to log in to the new site for several months. Finally I was able to log in, but by then I had grown accustomed to not posting. However, I tend to think of you this time of year. I tried sending you a PM but it appears your PM inbox is full. Hence this post. It must be your 5th "anti-versary" season. I hope you are well.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:50 PM, Wednesday, December 15th]

Hope you are well, Thumos. It was a little surreal reading back through your thread, seeing where you were at this time last year, and how things sort of blew off course from there. Hopefully you have a better idea of your direction now and a plan in place.