SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Godheals, you are not the only person commenting on this thread. Both WS,and a BS, have said what I said in my last post.

he needs to be able to get there himself is not saying it’s ok for what his doing.

Again..it's not a situation in which he is going to get there himself. The affair was over 4-5 years ago. He isn't going to tell her. At this point, much of what we say to him, isn't even meant for him. It's for the lurking WS. It's for the new WS who hasn't yet confessed. It's for the BS who show up in jfo,having just found out about an affair from years ago. It's to encourage those waywards who haven't yet confessed. And it's to let new BS know we don't stand by and give ego kibble to a wayward who continues to keep their BS in the dark.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:55 PM, December 20th (Sunday)]

I myself can't imagine how much it would hurt having YEARS of your known reality invalidated in such a fashion. I only had three months and I hope I never feel that level of wtf and pain again in my life.

That's the thing, if she finds out 30 years after it happens, every day of that 30 years is invalidated and has that asterick beside it you mentioned. Every single day, every memory, everything is tainted. If she found out 3 months after it happened and she's one who can try R, he had a chance of having ALL this time since be seen in a different light. The first thing you think is "how many others and how much longer did it go on" and I guarantee a part of her would wonder forever about him cheating for that entire three decades no matter how much he improved as a spouse. Putting off telling just compounds the trauma with every day that passes.

If FF’s affair partner hadn’t posted pictures of herself with another man on Facebook, he likely would’ve reach out to her again and rekindled the affair. So it wasn’t just his personal fortitude that’s kept him faithful all these years... his other option was no longer available.

Let’s be real... if most waywards were honest and respectful towards their spouses enough to confess, they wouldn’t have cheated in the first place. And even the ones that proactively confess do so because they feel they don’t have a choice, such as getting caught by OBS, fired from their job, seen out in public by people they know, etc.

The waywards that whine about how their situation is so different and that SI conventional wisdom doesn’t apply to them are using the same rationalizations that brought them to infidelity... they’re special snowflakes and so the rules don’t apply to them.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:48 PM, December 20th (Sunday)]

I had a professor teaching stats that made an interesting observation: Statistically it could be proven that the economy of Belgium/Denmark/Norway (I don’t remember the specific European country) was dependent on the number of storks that hatched each year. He then showed us graphs and numbers that clearly proved his point: the GNP and other economical factors clearly followed a line displaying the stork population. He also correctly pointed out that statistically if you place your right hand in boiling water and your left on a block of ice you would on average feel fine.

I start with that story because the “one size fits all” theories that are abundant on SI are based on statistics. Well… experience hidden as statistics… With stats you need to understand what they really are and the possible connection between varying stats. That despite some seeming correlation between numbers (storks and economy) then there also had to be a logical connection for it to be relevant.

Human interaction is not a constant. On the JFO forum there are some one-step-fit’s-all theories. I tend to offer the same advice more-or-less irrespective of the situation. I think that if the BS takes no action beyond crying and being pissed there is a 5/10 chance the affair will carry on. I think that if the OPS is told of the affair there is an 8/10 chance the OP will end it. I think letting stakeholders know (exposing) drops the odds of the affair restarting by 8/10… There are other actions that I could put some ratio on. But there is no denying that no matter the odds and the steps you take the affair can carry on.

The same applies to all human interaction and change. That doesn’t make the “one size fits all” theories wrong per se, but rather that they are more of a step-by-step guide that is likely to get you to a positive result. Considering the confused state most are when they post here – wayward or betrayed – then that’s not such a bad deal.

It’s not a one size fits all.

It’s not a one size fits all.

Of course not. But, regardless of size, every shirt needs a place for the head and arms, etc. Yes, there is a type of template for healing. And no, that healing has little to do with the betrayed spouse because the source has nothing to do with them.

I won't speak for others. I went to therapy to heal myself regardless of what my wife would do with our relationship. I was honest with my wife not because I thought it was going to win me points but because it is the right thing to do.

I understand the concept of "I'm changed so I won't tell. I'm doing it for us". I tried changing myself for years for my wife's sake, for my marriage's sake. It never sticks unless you change for your own sake. That's why I told the truth. I was a liar. I wanted to stop being a liar. I didn't want to make my wife feel better or to be the husband she deserves - I wanted to stop being a liar. And the only way to stop being a liar is to tell the truth. It has nothing to do with reconciliation or marriage or the betrayed partner's healing. It is 100% all on me.

Once I started practicing honesty. Then I started working on my marriage (with my wife obviously, she has been a godsend to walk once more with me towards healing our relationship).

If is only after I stopped being a liar. After I healed enough of my internal damage that I could assess the path forward in a marriage - and that is the place where one size does not fit all.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 9:09 AM, December 21st (Monday)]

Mickie500, obviously there are variations to everyone's situation, but the general SI-brand of advice exists on the basis of hundreds of collective years of experience. I have yet to read a single story on this site that is truly unique.

At this point, much of what we say.... isn't even meant for [a particular WS]. It's for the lurking WS. It's for the new WS who hasn't yet confessed. It's for the BS who show up in jfo, having just found out about an affair from years ago. It's to encourage those waywards who haven't yet confessed. And it's to let new BS know we don't stand by and give ego kibble to a wayward who continues to keep their BS in the dark.

This is my basis as well.

And bc, for me, a WS who has not come clean is not "former". As I said a bunch of pages back, a WS w/o a dday giving "advice" is like a dr who smokes telling a patient how to quit. Sure, today the doc may "only" be smoking one pack/day (compared to the prior 2 packs/day), which IS progress that should be recognized as such..... but they are still not nicotine free. Any more than a WS who hasn't had a dday is not infidelity free.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:24 PM, December 21st, 2020 (Monday)]

gmc

As I said a bunch of pages back, a WS w/o a dday giving "advice" is like a dr who smokes telling a patient how to quit. Sure, today the doc may "only" be smoking one pack/day (compared to the prior 2 packs/day), which IS progress that should be recognized as such..... but they are still not nicotine free.

I'm curious, how do you equate having/not having a dday with the ability to give advice? Does having a dday impart some divine wisdom to the WS? What about WS with 2-3-4 ddays? Do they have that many times the insight as one who hasn't had it?

Its absolutely a fact that a dday doesn't guarantee a darn thing any more/less than not having one does. It's all in the work that the WS puts in IMO.

FF, you and I have chatted before. We even both enjoyed it I think.

The DDay does not impart wisdom.

Dday ends the truth disparity.

One partner is in the Matrix, living a life based on unreality. One is trapped

One partner knows the truth. One has built the trap.

My spouse infantilized me by managing the truth about my life and relationship.

She stopped having sex with other people. She spent three years in IC getting better. It was noticeable. It was especially noticeable given what life with her was like before the therapy.

Until I was treated like an adult and she ended the disparity so that I could choose how to live my life and with who, then I couldn't count her as FWS and I would not have wanted her to give anyone advice about anything except how to steal your partner's life.

The truth hurt. It's taken a lot. She's grown and healed.

But not one whit of the supposed healing meant a thing to either one of us until she finally made it so I could live in the really real world.

That's the thing. Until DDay, we were not equals and we weren't partners. She held all the cards. She kept me bound.

So no, I wouldn't have wanted her to give advice on how to reconcile. She wasn't reconciling, she wasn't recovering and she wasn't healing.

We're only as sick as our secrets.

I've tried to be clear that this is my view based on my experience. This is not an attack on anyone.

I am rooting for you and for your actual healing.

FF, I’m not the user you posed your question to but I think it’s an interesting one so I’ll answer.

The WS who have done the work to successfully rebuild a marriage do have special wisdom to impart that a WS who has simply stopped cheating and lying by omission doesn’t. The exposed WS can speak to what it’s like to rebuild a marriage in concert with their BS... not as a personal exercise. They have learned how to reestablish trust, at least to the fullest extent it can be restored.

And the ones that ended up divorced have their own brand of wisdom... what they did wrong, what they could’ve done better, and even in some cases, why splitting up turned out best for all involved.

Long before my Dday, I sensed that my ex was distracted, more guarded, less engaged.. it felt like his head was somewhere else most of the time. In some ways, the Dday was a relief because so much about the isolation I was feeling made sense. It was like staring at one of those Magic Eye paintings that just look like dots until you step back and the complete image pops into focus.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:42 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

Its absolutely a fact that a dday doesn't guarantee a darn thing any more/less than not having one does.

It guarantees that both partners in the marriage know that an affair even occurred at some point. THAT is a fact.

It guarantees that the BS was given the choice of how to respond, even if they chose to stay and risk being cheated on again. That too is an actual fact.

It guarantees that the WS must address the actual betrayal with their actual victim. Yet another fact.

It guarantees that the WS must make the conscious decision, in the face of already having been outed, to cheat again or not. They cannot control the outcomes, they cannot continue to manipulate their spouse blindly. Facts all over the place.

It guarantees that the BS at least has the chance to get themselves tested for STD's and can make a conscious choice about who they sleep with and what risks they face. Factapalooza.

Notice how this statement completely ignores the BS, as if they didn't exist at all. Zero empathy. Zero ownership of the wrongdoing and of the consequences to others. My OPINION is that this doesn't look or feel like progress at all to me. It sounds like self-protection and deceit. (Source: Been there, done that.)

It is "advice" that is stated as fact that can serve to harm others. Every day that the betrayed spouse continues to live being lied to, having their own choices taken away, is a day that damage occurs, to the BS, on behalf, and ON PURPOSE, by the WS. Yet another inconvenient fact.

I'm having a hard time with the idea that only WSs experiencing a d-day are "worthy" of giving advice or posting.

What about the WS that HAD a d-day, yet they still cling to the dream of the AP. All the while, they are walking the walk, and talking the talk of R. They are going to IC, they are presumably "owning their shit" here at SI, and doing the work. They post here about what wonderful steps they are taking. They are held in high esteem by WSs and BSs alike.

And yet, this WS continues to PINE for their AP. Curses the day they were caught. Secretly hates the work they feel they are forced to do (because they are not ready to do it on their own and maybe never will be). But they suck it up. They cut their losses. They play along and take the head-pats. What do they have to lose?

Is THAT wayward spouse "better" simply because that wayward spouse experienced a d-day and is outwardly going throught the "right" motions?

Contrastingly, enter the WS that leaves the AP on their own free-will. They do not confess. There is no d-day. Yet this WS works on his/herself because they want to (and not because they have to). They do IC. They make changes for the better-- first solo, and then together on the M. They become engaged in doing, being better. They make changes that take hold, and do not look back. They do not miss what they gave up.

Likely, many will say that neither of these 2 waywards has done anything right...

But, if we are to judge based only on the "rightness" of what one can see on paper (without the benefit of knowing thoughts), it sure seems like there is a large percentage of people saying that the WS that had a d-day is the "better" WS, can claim to be recovered, can post a recovered marriage story, can claim the F (fws).

Meanwhile, according to many, the WS without the d-day can't claim shit. At least not outloud, and not on paper.

Looks are so very important to some people.

Yes but Sundance, in both of the scenarios you laid out, the BS knows what they're dealing with. In both, the BS has the choice whether to accept the risks inherent in R or not.

Of course having a dday doesn't guarantee one outcome or another. It just guarantees that both parties have the information they need to make informed decisions about their lives.

What about the WS that HAD a d-day, yet they still cling to the dream of the AP. All the while, they are walking the walk, and talking the talk of R. They are going to IC, they are presumably "owning their shit" here at SI, and doing the work. They post here about what wonderful steps they are taking. They are held in high esteem by WSs and BSs alike.

And yet, this WS continues to PINE for their AP. Curses the day they were caught. Secretly hates the work they feel they are forced to do (because they are not ready to do it on their own and maybe never will be). But they suck it up. They cut their losses. They play along and take the head-pats. What do they have to lose?

Is THAT wayward spouse "better" simply because that wayward spouse experienced a d-day and is outwardly going throught the "right" motions?

How would we know if they secretly pine? If they hate the work, etc? We wouldn't. We can only give advice based on the words they type.

There are 25 pages in the jfo forum. Several posts are made by people who just found out about an affair from years ago. Ive never read any new BS say it was ok that they cheated on them because they became a better person."

It has nothing to do with appearances. Again..it's about giving the BS the truth about their lives, so they can make decisions based on that truth.

Why does the BS keep getting dismissed in these scenarios?

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:33 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

Meanwhile, according to many, the WS without the d-day can't claim shit. At least not outloud, and not on paper.

Looks are so very important to some people.

If this second WS continues to withhold the truth from the only innocent party... Then yes. Exactly. They are not former.

The first isn't former either. They're not healed if they are still pining over their co-conspirator

I really can't empathize with the lack of empathy for the betrayed spouse who isn't treated as a free adult human.

In what way is it hard to accept that lying by omission is wayward?

Refusing the only innocent party the truth, how is that not wayward?

Caging someone into a life where they don't know they've been exposed to potential life threatening STDs, how is that not wayward?

And if it is wayward, how can it also be formerly wayward and wayward at the same time?

But to be plain, I believe waywardness is more than when the penis goes in or stays in the pants.

To your point, recovery is more than the truth given to the BS but it is never less than the truth.

I understand some WSs decide to deprive their spouse of reality. I get that they probably have all sorts of excuses for it.

I don't know of you've lived this abundance but I lived being trapped by a spouse withholding reality. I hope that my experience lends some credence to this.

Withholding the truth and denying a spouse the basic human dignity to choose is waywardness imo and in the opinion of a plurality of BSs.

Maybe the betrayed perspective needs to be the standard on what is best for the BS. The WS already has proven to be able to choose the worst for their BS.

I may need to hang my hat up on this. I am Uber biased on this. I can't even conceive of a scenario where I would bend on uncompromising honesty between BS and WS and maybe I need to accept that I've become a clanging cymbal

In what way is it hard to accept that lying by omission is wayward?

yup.

I'm having a hard time with the idea that only WSs experiencing a d-day are "worthy" of giving advice or posting.

Personally I can take advice from anyone. I just put more stock in those with a better body of work.

I don't think this is a debate. We all know that lying is not okay - particularly between two people who vow to have each other's backs and forsake all others. Lying about a betrayal of this magnitude is abusive.

A WS with no d-day is still a WS. There is no getting around it. There are other characterizations I could ascribe to this behavior and my guess is we all have words for it.

It is dangerous to indicate that perpetuating this lie, continuing to steal one's agency, is somehow okay or that the transformation one needs to go through is sufficient because hey they are no longer bedding down and/or pining for someone outside of their marriage. That may be true, but it is also true that they have a complete and utter disregard for their partner choosing instead to dictate and own the other person's decisions. Nobody has the right to take away someone else's power. Nobody. Not even if they know that the information they are withholding is going to be difficult to accept. The only reason someone does this is to protect themselves. Wayward.