SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BluerThanBlue,

Because I don’t love him anymore and I don’t think he loves me.

MarriageRedux,

I very much appreciate your thoughtful post. I doubt he would ever agree to see an MD about testosterone levels; he refused to see one for his PE issues already.

WOES,

I feel that I’m being authentic in my actions. I’m cordial to him and keep him in the loop with regard to the kids, nothing more, which is in line with how I feel. I suppose the inauthenticity is that I haven’t yet sat him down and point-blank said “I want a divorce as soon as is feasible”, which is why I started this post—because I know that conversation needs to happen.

Darkness Falls, thank you for your gracious response.

And thank you for posting this topic on the Wayward forum without a stop sign.

Betrayeds justifiably have limited posting privileges here (not complaining about that!) so the opportunities to share information that might be helpful to the original poster and/or to anyone/everyone is also limited.

I feel lucky and privileged to be able to tell our story and address this issue here on the Wayward side. If sharing our experience helps even one person or one couple out there, then that's a blessing for us as well. It is yet another good outcome from a situation that was incredibly painful for both of us.

Upon deep reflection, long before today, I have found that the experience of the dead bedroom was more profoundly hurtful and damaging than Husband's one stupid indiscretion.

I know this: the period of dead bedroom in between the actual incident and the sanitized narrative I received at the time, and the much grittier version of events I received 2.5 years ago, that dead bedroom in between acted as an amplifier to the infidelity. It *definitely* added to the hurt and damage and influenced my perception and reception of the grittier narrative,

even though I knew damned good and well that Husband's previous lack of desire was due to tanked testosterone. Period.

This physical reality was confirmed by the fact that appropriate testosterone treatment corrected the issue and our healthy, robust and spontaneous sex life has resumed without issue. Husband is plenty interested in me, in sex, in sex with me. He initiates. Etc.

Thank God in heaven that the dead bedroom was resolved and our sex life was back on track before the grittier narrative came out. Thank God.

If I was still looking at a dead bedroom and an avoidant Husband when that new narrative dropped, honestly, I'm not sure I could have handled it. I'm not sure we'd have made it. I would be beyond convincing that the problem was anything other than a total lack of interest.

And this is addressing only my pain.

Husband's pain, honestly, was magnitudes greater than mine. He too was living in an involuntarily sexless marriage- only he was the reason, and he didn't understand why. Plus he had all of the guilt of having an unhappy wife, and the embarrassment, and the anxiety, and the confusion.

The man tried *everything* short of quitting his job- which, by that point, paradoxically, would have caused only more stress. And, given his field, would likely have been jumping from the frying pan into the fire, bonus round a whole new work environment, culture, job, etc. with the accompanying learning curve.

Anyway, I believe that, as we all live longer and expect to be vital and engaged over a longer arc in our lives, this particular problem is becoming more prevalent.

Women have access to bioidentical hormones in custom formulations and men have...???

Nothing unless they get proactive and in our case, some years ago, aggressive and persistent about finding help and an actual solution.

I *do* believe that male libido problems and ED contribute to infidelity more often than any of us realize, and not in the ways or for the reasons one might automatically assume.

Infidelity in the presence of a dead bedroom isn't simply about getting laid. IMHO it's much more complex.

Speaking as the wife, the onset of an identifiable issue- like, things *aren't* working more often than they *are* working- and the deepening of the problem as it became entrenched, was incredibly confusing and bewildering to me.

Literally *nothing* changed except my husband's junk stopped working properly. ??? It's not like I aged 30 years overnight, or woke up one morning and stuck my face in the fridge and never came out, or stopped shaving my legs or brushing my teeth. It's not like I stopped loving my husband, and it's not like he stopped loving me. The junk just refused to work more times than it cooperated- and there was quite literally *no* rhyme or reason to it. It wasn't because of or in spite of a bad day, or a particular stressor, or any other physical ailment or condition, or because of an argument, or a bad mood, or a bad dinner, or a kid's report card or a call from the teacher. We tried our best to discern a pattern but there was none- except that work stress was always present, but its impact was unpredictable. Now that we understand it as an issue with fluctuating hormone levels, that lack of a pattern makes all kinds of sense.

As 'the problem' became 'our new normal' (and this was long before there were ED commercials of every type plastered all over the media, and we were relatively young at the time) both of us, retreated. Sex itself became fraught with anxiety. Husband was terrified of failure and I was terrified of rejection.

It was during this period of profound confusion and hurt that I came as close as I've ever come to having an affair myself. Thank God I could not bring myself to do it but I came closer between my own two ears than I like to remember.

It wasn't physical and it wasn't emotional. I refer to it in my own mind as an 'attention affair' or a 'validation affair.' I let a guy hang around and heap attention on me for far too long when I knew why he was there.

So while I will generally go along with the idea prevalent on SI that no spouse 'causes' the other spouse to cheat, and my husband certainly wasn't trying to make me cheat, I do believe that the weather conditions in a marriage can contribute to a wayward's vulnerability.

As far as the husbands go, even though thankfully Husband did not go down this path himself, both of us can quite clearly see how a husband struggling with ED could himself cheat, or attempt to cheat, out of misplaced anxiety.

I have read so many times, here on SI, where a betrayed wife writes that her husband attempted sex with another woman, "but he swears it didn't happen because he couldn't get hard." Of course the wife does not believe this.

Every time I read this, I want to reach out and say, "Honey, it just might be true."

Of course, the wife is so hurt and so crushed that pointing this out to a specific wife on a specific thread will likely not be well received- and even if she's willing to hear it, the knee jerk reaction is that her husband is blaming his lack of performance on her, which is why he sought sex with someone else. And that will only increase her pain.

The problem becomes a huge mountain of an issue between the couple, such that it begins to make its own weather.

The woman's husband quite likely is not testing his fickle dick out on another woman thinking that someone new/younger/older/more attractive/more skinny/more voluptuous/just different will solve the problem.

Likely, he's as attracted to his wife as he ever was, and likely not all that particularly attracted to the AP.

But the abject embarrassment and confusion and guilt over being unable to respond to someone he loves, and whom he is hurting deeply in the process, *could* contribute to a guy misguidedly trying to sort this shit out with someone for whom he really doesn't care all that much. A cooperative stranger, more or less- or even a professional.

It's not an excuse and it's not pretty and it's not the solution and if the AP, despite being an AP, I know I know, is genuinely (but wrong headedly) invested in the guy, it's not a good way to use another human being, despite that person's own flaws and issues.

I suspect sexual health issues contribute more to infidelity than we know.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone out there...

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 4:23 PM, December 19th (Saturday)]

DF,

I’m sorry but I’m confused. Is he bothered that you guys don’t have a romantic relationship, no relationship or an antagonistic relationship? Just because you guys aren’t compatible on a romantic level and therefore sex is off the table, which I get, do you dislike him so much that you can’t have a friendly relationship with him? Friends without benefits? Based on what you e said here, you guys really don’t talk. I can see why that would be so difficult for both of you. Maybe he’s trying to meet you in the middle. Not romance, but something cordial and even friendly as you co-parent until you guys can separate. Is that something you’d be open to?

Darkness Falls:

The two of you are carrying the burden of family, with two small children, one with special needs, and the compromise of marriage which is hard work in the best of marriages,

with absolutely no benefit besides cost sharing and shared child care.

It's no wonder you are both burned out.

He seems to have a lot of pent up anger and resentment, i.e. calling you a bitch and saying that he hates you.

If the two of you were really in an 'arrangement' type marriage, wouldn't you both be free to pursue having emotional and sexual needs met elsewhere?

Also, the whole 'who initiates' power struggle based on all validation going one way, towards him, seems very controlling. It almost seems, punishing on his part.

Unless he *is* struggling with ED and is just not ready to face it- in which case it could be a purely defensive posture. Misguided and unfair as hell to you but not intended to control or punish.

If there is no love here, no affection, no sex, nothing...

... and he actually misses those things,

... then he's only going to get more resentful with time.

Do you miss those things?

If the two of you decide that logistically, you *are* stuck together for the next several years, God, I'd either try to make it more pleasant with and for each other, or just give each other a respectful and courteous hall pass.

DF, respectfully, I think this issue highlights a pretty big step back for you. Not because you should stay in your marriage or even that you need to work on the marriage at all. It's okay to not want to be married especially in your shoes but it's not okay to do all of this avoiding, guessing, and assuming he knows what you mean. Isn't that what people ripe for an A do? Not to say that you're at any risk of a repeat but it also doesn't make those actions any less damaging to you and any less dangerous when justifying other unhealthy and self sabotagey behavior. WOES is right. There shouldn't be any surprises or confusion from either one of you if everyone has been authentic, honest, and communicative.

I feel that I’m being authentic in my actions. I’m cordial to him and keep him in the loop with regard to the kids, nothing more, which is in line with how I feel.

The issue is - these actions can communicate a lot of different things. They don't unilaterally say, "The romantic relationship is dead and I want a D when possible." In fact, some people would actually describe this as "okay" and having room for hope because it's not antagonistic. Some BSed here whose WSes are in an active A and are making moves to leave have interpreted this situation as having hope for improvement because things are still cordial. If your BH has ever had issues with hopium, and I sort of suspect he may have given I wouldn't last 20 months and expect things were "okay" or even "not great but not dire" in his shoes, he needs it spelled out for him as clearly as possible.

But that's sort of besides the point because now you're aware that your BH is not on the same page and you can have a real conversation about it with *words* which I'm fairly positive is what your BH expected when he said "honest and authentic". I think he was expecting you to tell him you that you didn't love him and wanted a D a bit sooner than this.

Sorry, DF. I think there's some denial going on here if you really think those actions can properly convey everything you've said to us about how you really feel. Old habits die hard when it comes to conflict avoidance. It sucks but you're going to have to put it all on the table now and let the chips fall where they may. Scary, yes, because he might throw in the towel but unfortunately if it was a mistake to remarry him, staying married isn't going to fix it either and he deserves the right to make that decision himself with ALL of the information available. Your right to an undisturbed lifestyle doesn't trump his right to make choices about his life based on the truth. I get that it may feel like you're an exception especially with a SN child but it still doesn't justify upholding a lie now that you're blatantly aware of it.

Here's my advice, based on your replies.

Journal your thoughts ahead of the conversation. Maybe venting on the page will give you some clarity.

Write down a few bullet point of things you want to say and practice saying them beforehand.

If the conversation gets overly heated and completely unproductive, actually set a date on the calendar (for the next night or after) to talk again. I know that seems overly formal, but it's a good way to let him know you're not blowing him off.

I think you both need to seriously consider this question: If you knew that you were going to die before your kids are 18, would you still want to stay married?

Mrs Walloped asked if you two are

Friends without benefits?

Heck… based on what you share Darkness Falls then it doesn’t sound like you are friends. Doesn’t mean you are enemies, just you two aren’t friends. Don’t like each other, don’t enjoy each others company…

It sounds like the marriage is based on a make-shift arrangement to tend to the kids. That is the “benefit”.

Maybe find another way to get that goal? One where it’s clear you two aren’t married? Maybe even living separately?

I didn’t read any replies. I just came to tell you everything I was afraid would happen after I left never came true. All the things I worried about, all the scheduling and kid trouble and unhappiness and harming my kids didn’t happen. Having Two happy parents is a 100x better option. You say there are no other options but that’s just fear talking. The hardest part of it all is leaving. But the idea of staying was worse.

To those who asked why things are unclear between us despite prior conversations:

We have had a few conversations (not many and lacking extreme depth). Divorce was discussed in very abstract terms but no formal decisions were made. Hence—sorry to keep repeating myself—the need to really talk.

Regarding inconveniencing ME or disrupting MY lifestyle—my first priority is not disrupting the KIDS’ lives. And H and I both would suffer hardships in the case of divorce, certainly not just me. It’s not about just me at all.

I appreciate y’all’s replies. I’m going to take the suggestion to journal the potential conversation first and then decide how best to proceed from there once I think about it more.

Regarding inconveniencing ME or disrupting MY lifestyle—my first priority is not disrupting the KIDS’ lives. And H and I both would suffer hardships in the case of divorce, certainly not just me. It’s not about just me at all.

And I too would like to repeat myself - that still doesn't override his right to know the truth and make decisions based on it. Even if it feels unfair because D would not be ideal. D would be hard but not impossible to overcome for your SN child and there are plenty of resources and options out there to minimize impact.

I just want to point out, DF, that staying married for the kids is not actually some sort of healthy relationship option. There is no family therapist or IC that is going to tell you that this is a healthy family dynamic for a child--to experience tension, lack of warmth, lack of affection or soft gestures, no closeness. It may be a practical choice, but it must be acknowledged that it comes with a lot of damage.

This was emphatically told to me by one kind IC and one stern family therapist who told me on separate occasions that I was actually being selfish and fearful and simply telling myself a pretty story that my choice to ihs separate for years was "best for the kids." The family therapist actually said that I was being selfish in letting my H believe we may rekindle by staying with him. "Why have you not released him to find love elsewhere?" The same might be said with you, DF, especially given his recent sharing.

I have a friend whose parents stayed together for the kids. He's pretty messed up. He says he used to watch for affection between them when he was young, counting how often they would kiss. He said, "It was only when my dad went out of town. And my mom never seemed to want the kiss." I think he has no idea what love looks like as an adult. He doesn't understand it and kind of fears it now.

I remember my youngest coming out of his room a few years ago when H and I were tensely whispering in the kitchen. He said, "I can hear you. Why do you think we can never hear you?" He was upset, and it broke my heart. We thought we were so quiet. Another time my youngest said, "Mom, do you even love dad anymore? You don't seem like it." What a fucking horrible mother I was to let my kids live through this pain, even though it was the furthest thing from my mind. We took vacations, had fun, went to dinner. I thought we were good, but my kids would tell you something far different. They did not like the coldness, did not feel safe at all.

I'm not judging you, DF. Just sharing my own painful errors of judgment. It worked out for us because we both stayed in IC, worked hard on ourselves as individuals during ihs. That allowed a lot of growth. Your H is definitely open to working on the M, he just doesn't know how. I think you two could make a lot of progress toward learning to like each other again if you both invested in ongoing IC. I'm not saying you'll find passionate love, but you never know. It might come back. It did for us, and we were deader than dead.

I do not in any way judge you for this practical decision, but I do think you need to get a lot more honest with yourself. It's obvious that you are stuck in a truth that you like, but it's not the whole story. Loveless marriages are about surviving, not thriving. They take an emotional toll on everyone. It is not about controlling what is there--fighting--but what is not there, what is missing, that damages--the lack of warmth, tenderness, emotional connection, hugs. Kids want to see happy, loved up parents, not cold emotional economists. So my feeling is that once you get honest that this is short-term, you need a better plan. Planning not to plan is not a plan. And years of this? Well, A. your H is clearly not on board with that and may act out sooner, and B. the decision to live coldly like this will come with a price.

I don't know what I wish I had done differently. The first words that come to mind are "wish I wouldn't have been a cold bitch," but that's me being too hard on myself. My H needed to work, to change. He wasn't safe. Idk, honestly. But it just took too long before we got the level of help we needed, and I think you guys may be making the same mistake. Do more. Try harder. Go to IC. Go to MC. Read more. You won't regret it, I promise you. You'll want to tell the kids that you did all that you could. They will appreciate that. Mine do.

I wish you the best.

It was a tough, tough time for me.

But I think you two can feel better, one direction or the other. Don't just stay like this.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:06 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

I don’t shy away from hard suggestions so please take this as it’s intended: As something to help you find resolve. It’s offered in kindness despite maybe sounding hard.

What you and your husband are trying (as I understand it) is tough. Maybe so tough that it’s not attainable. Basically, you are saying that you two are going to live together under the premise of husband and wife without all the emotional and physical aspects of that title. The reason being that you both believe that’s best for your kids.

Have you two talked about how your emotional and physical needs can be met? Is either of you allowed to go have a GF/BF? Or seek sex elsewhere? Or have you both made the assumption that those needs don’t need fulfilment and should be ignored?

You mention divorce has never been seriously discussed. Why not? If you two had the ability to discuss and be clear on an emotionless and sexless marriage of convenience for your kids then discussing why it beats a plain old divorce should be easy.

Is there a timeline on your arrangement? What happens if the kids become more independent? What happens if they move from home? Is this arrangement “for the kids” a permanent one or does it have an end-date? Do you plan on retiring with this man?

(Frankly DF – in probably 10 out of 10 instances where I see a BS claim that he/she is only there for the kids and will divorce the minute junior leaves home… the BS is really only scared and is using the kids as an excuse for inaction… There are few (if any) posters that made that claim and then come back a couple of years later to let us know of their divorce…)

I get and RESPECT how you put your kids first. But in doing so have you two REALLY struck the ideal deal? Are you two REALLY finished negotiating what is really going on and how to progress? Is this REALLY an emotionless marriage or is it a marriage with the WRONG emotions?

The difference? In an emotionless marriage you and your husband would be OK with the other dating or going on his/her own holidays and/or behaving in any way outside the arrangement. Neither would be expecting any emotional support in excess of what you might offer a colleague at work. There would be nor expectation or desire for sexual fulfilment. In fact – the only emotions you would feel are frustration if he’s late on his shift or doesn’t do what’s required according to the agreement.

Honestly DF – Look long and hard… Would it be in any way easier for you two to place your kids in first place as a DIVORCED couple with clear lines? Even if that meant nesting (as in where you two keep a family home but live totally separate lives, maybe even with an apartment/bedroom off-site).

What I fear – and honestly what I think might be happening here – is where a couple finds a “less bad than usual” solution to their issues. Sort of like if you have a broken foot you might find crawling get’s you between A and B so you don’t get the broken bone set and don’t get a cast because that disrupts the crawling… Only crawling limits you and you explode in frustration when the pressure builds up. Only when the pressure has been released you go back to crawling…

MAYBE DF its time for a more permanent or sustainable solution. MAYBE that solution is a decision to see if the marriage can be rebuilt. MAYBE that solution is to clarify, agree on and accept in more detail your present arrangement. MAYBE that solution is an outright divorce with more emotional and physical distance between you two but still focused on the kids best interest.

Finally – When evaluating the kids best interest then a stressed out or semi-insane (said in the kindest way!) mom or dad should really disrupt the equation!

Bigger's post pretty much says it all, but I just had a few thoughts to add.

I absolutely think that your decision to stay married is based on what's best for the kids. As a child of divorced parents myself, I would advise parents that still have some shred of affection for each other to try to work things out for the sake of an intact family.

But in your situation as you've described doesn't seem tenable. You're living in a Potemkin Village that could get blown over with strong enough winds. You might not outright hate each other but there's clearly a current of resentment and discontent coursing between you that your kids might be tuning into even if they don't understand it.

I think it's inevitable that one of you is going to snap and it looks like your husband is at that point or is getting close to it. Even if you're willing and able to soldier on until the bitter end, at the very least, you need to prepare yourself--mentally and logistically-- for the possibility that he won't.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:18 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

I'm sorry you're struggling, DF. It sounds like you thought you were on the same page, but that in fact there was a pretty significant miscommunication that you now know you need to rectify. That's got to be both stressful and scary.

I know that all of us on SI would love to have a reset button, but the regrets are particularly bitter in your case because you thought remarriage was the right way to make amends for your A. My heart goes out to you.

I think everyone here is correct that staying for the kids is never a healthy thing. However, I do have a family member with a severely autistic child. That changes everything. They are unhappy also. I don't think to the depth that you are, but in normal circumstances would not stay together. Their child does not handle change well. Cant really be left alone which would be a severe hardship for a single parent, or even in sharing custody. I think those here that call for you to just divorce may not understand this.

I think that the conflict you are having right now might be uncomfortable, but in the long run is healthy. I hope that it is the impetus to somehow figure out how to parent, but also find some happiness in your life. Even if it isn't with him. I hope the conversation which has been so needed is productive. You both deserve happiness.

WWTL, the autism is definitely the wrench in the works here. If both kids were typically functioning, that would be a different matter with more options available to solve this mess.

My heart goes out to you both. It is a difficult disability to deal with. I’m sure you are doing all the early intervention things you need to do. My family members child is older now. Much more is known today then when they were dealing with a young child.

I hope that you are developing a good support system outside yourself and husband. It’s difficult, but you need to have a life too.

Either way, it’s good you are going to have a discussion on the relationship and hopefully will find some sort of compromise. It may not be the marriage you want, but with Frank conversations it might get better

DF - I hope you had a great holiday.

I think with everyone who knows your past being confused on where you are with your marriage, maybe your husband being confused makes perfect sense.

If I am wrong in recalling all of your story, please correct me(I have seen so many people get mad when I join a wrong detail):

*You were married, had an affair, EA and PA, which then led to a divorce, that you were fuzzy on who initiated

*Then you both were single for a while and got back together and got remarried

*You had your high needs child

*Your husband had an EA (Your perspective) he needed to stop talking to a woman and refused. It wasn't sexual in nature but intimate about his feelings. (You never really answered my past questions but you said him talking to her made your marriage more difficult)

*He stopped talking to her, then you went back to the road of you both know you want divorces but can't due to the family

*You have had some rough fights but most of them are due to both parties feeling the marriage is something else. Typically it is about you thinking he doesn't understand where you guys are at and you don't want to explain things.

*He thinks every time you 2 talk, you fight, and has become fairly disengaged with the marriage.

*You refuse to think your past affair has anything to do with your current marriage state that his remarrying you essentially erased it.

Like I said, please correct any of this that is wrong and I will edit.

Firstly, I love how straight forward and bold you are with what you put out on this forum. You seem to feel very confident.

I think anyone reading this though would understand your husband's confusion.

You 2 seem to go into many conversations that immediately seem to turn hostile or shutdown. I think you both want to "WIN" your conversations.

Instead of the winning which involves one person agreeing that they are wrong, have you thought about winning being maybe just getting to the sigh and hug at the end without hating each other?

I will say, I understand your husbands reluctance to MC. Many and I mean many BS can explain that the MC walks in and is trying to get the WS to talk and feel like they can discuss marriage issues, which makes the BS feel they were part of the affair. Meanwhile that puts an extra turd on the BS turd sandwich which now a professional chef says they have to eat. Then the BS can go into self loathing or lack of self respect, which even this forum can't seem to really work on much from my own experience.

I have since learned from talking to someone who is a MC why they approach it that way, but it still is a kick in the head to a fragile BS no matter how you deliver it.

So to summarize:

*Your husband won't initiate sex unless you will

*You won't initiate sex because it is only to be wifely and you don't feel like you want that from your husband

*You feel you 2 shouldn't talk about anything but finances and kids

*He thinks this is effecting the family, but you don't think it is an issue

*You were mad he was talking to another woman but refuse his communicating or intimacy

You seem to have lots of reasons to not just try to talk.

So, what are some things you both like?

What are some things you used to enjoy doing together?

Have you thought about how you can reconnect on something as simple as you both enjoying some basic activity together?

Then rinse and repeat until you both feel like those happy feelings during those activities rebuild some connection. Maybe not a happy marriage but at least a friendship.

I am sure you have more bad blood with some people you are friends, than you do with your husband. Why can't you be friends?

I have said before I feel your marriage is toxic, but you could be friends. You 2 will be in each others lives a long time due to children. Maybe make the ground work to enjoy each others company.

Sorry if I missed the mark at all here.

I hate I have to state this, but I am not trying to rehash anything or explain anything down to you. I am trying to show how your husband could be confused and that you seem to want more from this marriage, but have very confusing boundaries that flex and move without conversations which drives the confusion.

Overall, you don't want to communicate but feel unheard.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 5:15 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

I will be devils advocate here....

Seriously, what do you have to lose? Have some epic sex with your H and don’t hold back on anything in bed. Go full on and act out whatever your kinks are.

Go fully into your M and burn the bridges behind you.

There’s a point where you truly have nothing to lose and everything to gain, so fully jump in.