SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I literally got heart palpitations reading this. (Instead of crying, I would get the silent treatment for days).

Well, I haven't heard from her or from my father for days... so I think that I am getting the silent treatment, actually. It helps that I live 500 miles away.

My guess is that my dad will call me and demand that I apologize to her. I'll refuse, so we'll see where this goes. I already have a sarcastic response for him when he calls. It will be: Well, she was telling me what I was thinking and she was yelling at me for that... so I figured that she had both sides of the conversation fully covered and so I went to Home Depot instead.

But, yes, I am starting to identify narcissists better in my life. I had a run-in elsewhere on the internet last week that really nicely set me up for what my mother did. This guy claimed that he had the solution to all of my problems, refused to give it to me, and then complained that I wasn't following his advice. I then suggested that he was a narcissist, at which point he said something like "no good deed goes unpunished." I then pointed out that he didn't actually do a good deed (because he refused to share his solution) and that he was now making himself out to be the victim.

Narcissists clearly have a pattern... I am starting to see it.

I got news this morning that my ex-wife was awarded some attorney's fees from the appeal. My lawyer is going a little bonkers.

My ex decided to try and "trash talk" me this morning about it. The court was clear that it was need-based, not merit-based... so yeah, a good topic to trash talk about.

Another update:

The Dark Lord (what I sometimes call her) has successfully converted my middle child to the dark side.

(forgive me for mixing up Harry Potter and Star Wars terms).

My middle child basically has told me to fuck off and she is now refusing to come see me at all. All of her complaints are either absolutely ridiculous, based on lies... or really old complaints, based on her mother's twisting of past events.

I learned, for example, that I never paid attention to her prior to her entering the 6th grade. This is literally the same child who most people would have called my favorite. She wasn't my "favorite" but she and I were highly compatible and she and I were pretty inseparable until a year after my ex filed for divorce and the parental alienation starting working.

I am pretty fucking heartbroken.

I got her mother to agree to start taking her to therapy. I thought, wow... is this a new era for the Dark Lord? Sadly, no. The Dark Lord informed me that the daughter doesn't want to go to therapy, so therapy isn't going to happen. Basically, this is just one of the Dark Lord's tricks to make the wrong decision for her kids, intentionally, while simultaneously deflecting blame.

So sorry to hear these updates.

Keep staying the course Barcher144. Once your kids go through a few relationships themselves growing up they start to realize who was really the one at fault.

I said this in another thread, but my GF is starting to do a lot of research into parental alienation.

The problem is that most therapists and other mental health professionals don't know anything about it. The law is similarly behind-the-times.

So, I have a couple of options:
1. Just suck it up and take it. Let me daughter go away for a year, two years, or forever. This isn't the great option, but I largely feel helpless and at least this would give me the opportunity to work more on my relationships with my other two kids. My oldest is only 18 months from emancipation... and about 16 months from going away to college. I need to keep her in my life until then... I can say more to her after she turns 18.

2a. I need to find a local, qualified mental health professional who has expertise in parental alienation and is willing to get involved in the legal system. The latter issue is perhaps the more important of the two. For example, my older daughter's therapist was convinced that my xWW was an abomination but she refused to get involved with the legal process, even refusing to discuss therapy with our custody evaluator.

2b. I need to get a local lawyer who has expertise in parental alienation and is willing to fight for this in court. Most people agree that parental alienation is child abuse and there are laws that protect kids from child abuse, in general, but not against parental alienation specifically. I know that my current lawyer will not pursue this route (at least, that's what she has indicated so far) so I might need to get a new lawyer (or a second lawyer).

The problem with option 2 is that it's expensive and I am pretty much broke (in a lot of debt actually) with little change of that changing soon because of the alimony and child support that I am paying. Still... if I could assemble a good team... it would be worth it to save my kids from the abuse.

You had a fairly clear cut case for alimony adjustment and lost twice in your local courts. Option 2, which is a much harder case to prove, will be fought in those same courts. You will have a he said/she said situation. Your wife has shown no qualms about lying to and abusing the court system. There's a good chance that she could stall this case for years. And have you pay all the legal fees. Continuing the abuse along the way. The darklord will spin this, your last case, and the alimony adjustment case, as proof that everything is your fault to the children. I'd be careful about going all in on this. Certainly get an opinion from a child custody attorney, but I'd think twice about getting to the point of needing to make your kids choose which parent to support in court. Get advice on how to minimize the damage without going full scorched earth.

I'd work on being the best dad you can to all the kids. Be the safe haven. Insist that the visitation is followed. In my state the custodial parent has to facilitate this even with reluctant children absent any abusive or dangerous situation in the non-custodial home. Get the conversations in writing from both the darklord and Middle child. Take this to court to have them enforce the visitation. In this case you aren't fighting an uphill battle to prove alienation, just that court approved visitation plan is followed. IANAL, but I see this is the least damaging way to counter the alienation. I would hope that therapy would be ordered by the court before denying you any visitation. Hopefully the darklord will overreach and the lightbulb will go off with Middle.

You had a fairly clear cut case for alimony adjustment and lost twice in your local courts.

Actually, I only lost once... at the appellate court. The second attempt is just getting started. We have mediation in May and we are in court in June (assuming that mediation fails).

I'd work on being the best dad you can to all the kids.

You mean two out of three, since the third refuses to talk to me at all?

You mean... just go ahead and let my third child to grow up in a highly abusive household? Knowing the difficulties that children-victims of parental alienation experience in their adulthood?

I guess that I can see your perspective, but I love that kid with all of my heart and I don't know if I can stomach letting the abuse continue simply because its safest.

The bigger issues, from my perspective, will be whether or not I can keep the parental alienation taking hold of the other two... and whether or not it's simply a waste of time/money to try to get relief via the court system. So far, unfortunately, I agree with you. I don't think that I have anything other than an exceptionally thin chance of success through the courts. I will need a really good expert who is willing to speak to my child (assuming that my child will agree to talk to this expert) and a lawyer that can navigate a legal system that is infamous for ignoring emotional abuse and for resisting any reversal of any previous decision.

Yes, I am fully aware that the odds are against me. The first step is to find a local expert and a local attorney with expertise in this area of the law. After that, I will re-evaluate. I don't think that I will get past step#1 to be honest... I would need a lawyer that can say that they were able to go to court and reverse a decision due to parental alienation. I am guessing that there is no case like that in the history of my state. And if so... there is no step#2.

I was considering the judge's error in the original case as your first loss on the alimony and the appeal the second.

You mean two out of three, since the third refuses to talk to me at all?

So she spends her visitation without speaking to you. You have visitation. It is your ex's responsibility to facilitate it. Generally kids can't refuse that until they turn 18. I see that as your best avenue for remedy. This is where you should seek legal assistance. An order to try and force counseling for middle hopefully joint with you to address why she refuses visitation. I would hope that the court's unlikely to take a teenagers word on it without digging in deeper. It may be that alienation will be disclosed to the court as part of that process, but your stated goal is to ensure you get to spend the court ordered visitation time with your child which is more of a black and white issue than the murkiness of proving alienation. Courts don't like murky. Whenever they see murky they try to get a mutual agreement instead of ruling. That's just not likely with the dark lord. Trying to go directly at the parental alienation seems unlikely to succeed. You've requested your ex's help in this. You suggested counseling which your ex as the custodial parent refuses to have the daughter to attend. That's not going to look good to the court when you complain about not getting visitation. I'm not suggesting to give up, just try to attack it sideways instead of head on.

What're the other twos thoughts on this? Does she not get along with the older one?

[This message edited by grubs at 11:01 PM, Tuesday, April 5th]

As a divorce lawyer for thirty years, my advice to you regarding your daughter's unwillingness to participate in your life is to stop calling her mother "The Dark Lord."

I know, you'll tell us that you never say that stuff around the kids.

Funny how they figure it out anyway, isn't it?

I'm so sad reading this for you Barcher. I usually send little texts throughout the weeks I don't have them to remind them I love them. Little emojis and what not. I wonder if you can do this with your middle one. Or set up a lunch date every once in awhile. My xWS is working real hard at alienating but it is currently backfiring on him. My kids are older though and now able to see through it.

I too worry about the toll of abuse on the kids. Both my kids have now voiced to me incidents where they upset their dad and he has punished them by leaving the house for hours and silent treatment Makes me mad I chose him as a partner in life.

My atty told me the kids don’t get to say no to visitation and I better have them ready at the time our papers say to have them ready....

So,,, it works the other way, too.

When my son was about 13 I texted his Dad to bring him home-visitation was over. He refused. I did not get into an argument, I called the police, showed them the D papers, and they met me at a store close to my xh house. They went to the door and got my son. They told me at his age, if he refused I’d have to call my atty, but said child and xh didn’t know this I guess. I told my son nobody was going to disrespect our time the courts have given us.

So, I’d say call your atty. She can probably send a certified letter to your xw stating the penalties for being in contempt of court in not respecting visitation.

It’s worth it. I had many times my kids wanted to tell me what they were/were not going to do (xh’s manipulation) and I basically shut them down. I really think like you do that your middle child needs you to be strong now. And you have rights too. You can take your child to counseling and family counseling when they are with you.

One more thought-visitation is really parenting time. Your xw doesn’t get to take away your time to parent your child. And if your child is mad the whole time they are with you, then you deal with that then. But it’s your time.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 3:31 AM, Wednesday, April 6th]

My atty told me the kids don’t get to say no to visitation and I better have them ready at the time our papers say to have them ready....

My attorney has told me that I can't force my kids to come see me. She basically said that the kids get to decide.

So she spends her visitation without speaking to you.

I have them every Thursday and every-other-weekend. She has refused to come see me for several Thursdays, claiming that she needed to do her online driver's education class. We had plenty of time to get to my house (I live ~45 minutes away by car) but she didn't want to risk it, apparently.

The last weekend that I supposedly had her, she told me that she was going to a friend's house after school on Friday and then she stayed there the entire weekend (Friday and Saturday night). So, I didn't see her at all.... and even worse, neither did her mother. She did tell me to leave her $20 at her mom's house because it was officially my weekend and therefore I was responsible for paying for her fun time or whatever expenses.

This most recent weekend, she refused to come at all.

I'm not suggesting to give up, just try to attack it sideways instead of head on.

That's my current approach too. (my GF is the one who wants to go the legal route). I am trying to learn as much about parental alienation as I can and how to deal with it on a daily basis. One thing is to never stop trying with the child. So, she has several sporting events in the next couple of weeks and I will be attending those, even if she tells me not to come.

I was also able to find a "reunification specialist" and we haven't connected yet but I am doing to try that route.

What're the other twos thoughts on this? Does she not get along with the older one?

According to the other two, this child is basically angry all of the time at everyone.

The older daughter has also been affected by the parental alienation at times. In Fall 2019, I think, she refused to come to my place for my parenting time on a few occasions. There was also a lot of arguing about a year ago. Since then, though, things have been really good between us. I worked with her a lot on her driving. In contrast, there is at least one story of my ex screaming at this child for her driving... and it got so bad that my daughter had to pull over and change drivers because she was crying. This daughter also now has a job and her own money... so I think the stress from her mother is less because this daughter is now paying for things that her mother should be covering. The only time we "argue" is when she wants to pay for some of her stuff and I refuse because I am her dad and paying for those things is my responsibility.

My youngest has been seemingly unaffected by all of this. I have personally witnessed her do a number of things that easily qualify as parental alienation but they were so off-base that I think that he ignores her. For example, he gets emotional at night when he goes to bed -- it's common for me to stay in his room until he falls asleep. One night, he wanted to call his mom too, so of course I helped him do that. She proceeded to criticize me for not being with him when he was upset and wanted a parent in bed with him; I was able to hear this because I was laying in bed with him (i.e., 6 inches away from him). She used to try and convince him to be afraid of me, but that isn't working as far as I can tell. He regularly hands me a baseball and asks me to throw it at him repeatedly (i.e., we frequently play catch with a baseball).

You can take your child to counseling and family counseling when they are with you.

According to my attorney, I cannot do this and this is a line that I do not want to cross.

Ex-WW went to court in May 2019 and claimed that I was taking our daughter to medical providers without her permission. The first situation was therapy for this child... ex-WW gave permission at the time but the daughter didn't want to go (first appointment only) and then ex-WW claimed that I physically dragged her to therapy. The second situation happened when the daughter was afraid to ask her mother to take her to the doctor so I did... this didn't go well at court either.

Ironically, ex-WW now takes credit for that daughter's success in therapy. Ex-WW also spent a couple of hours on the stand at trial complaining that I never take the kids to their doctor appointments (although my attorney intelligently asked her if she would allow me to take the kids to the doctor and she was told "no").

Your daughter is the middle one? They are often the emotional vessel for the rest of the family. What I am guessing is that she is overwhelmed by the stress and has decided to be a typical teenage and have nothing to do with either of you. If you can get her to listen to you tell her you are sorry that her parent’s mess interfered with her life. Don’t unload on her. Tell her when adults get their feelings hurt or they are unhappy they go right back to feeling like a child who has been abandoned. No trash talk. Just lay out how you wish all of you could have handled it differently but human beings act stupid when they should be smart. Then let it go.

Btw, if she comes back with, Oh yeah what about you saying/doing so and so. Mom says you did this or that. Tell her you were very hurt and that made you angry. Tell her no one acts nice when their lives are blown up. Again, make sure you never talk about her mother specifically because that will boomerang.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 5:36 PM, Wednesday, April 6th]

Your daughter is the middle one?

Yes

What I am guessing is that she is overwhelmed by the stress and has decided to be a typical teenage and have nothing to do with either of you.

Agreed. This is parental alienation + teenage angst.

If you can get her to listen to you tell her you are sorry that her parent’s mess interfered with her life. Don’t unload on her. Tell her when adults get their feelings hurt or they are unhappy they go right back to feeling like a child who has been abandoned. No trash talk. Just lay out how you wish all of you could have handled it differently but human beings act stupid when they should be smart. Then let it go.

I have done this. I have re-visited some of these issues because she brought them up again. That is, she yelled at me for perceived sins that are at least 3 years old. The only "new" accusation is that I live too far away. I have lived in this house since September 2020, so that's not exactly new either. All of her accusations are the same complaints that her mother has.

Again, make sure you never talk about her mother specifically because that will boomerang.

Nothing negative is said about her mother, ever. The most negative thing that I have ever said about her mother is "you are only getting one side of the story about me and that is mom's side. I am not going to tell you my side of the story because that would be inappropriate."

I regularly encourage the kids to have a good time with their mother, to behave for their mother, to be kind to their mother, to go easy on their mother because being a single parent is hard... basically, the same stuff that I told them while she and I were together.

No advice, just wanting to give you support. Hang in there. My kids are older & have figured out XWH is the one with problems & don't deal with him. Stinks at this age, though. Hang in there.

Thank you leafields. Moments like this remind me that the world isn't full of awful, mean people.

A small update:

One of my big problems with fighting the parental alienation is that I don't have access to local resources, whether that is a parenting consultant, parenting advocate, lawyer, or therapist.

Well, I found someone this week. She called me just now... and basically, I am completely screwed as far as finding any sort of legal remedy.

While there are some statutes that would make parental alienation illegal and/or actionable, the actual people enforcing parental alienation are far more concerned about protecting the victims of domestic violence than kids. And the number 1 person in this conspiracy is the person who did my custody evaluation. Her opinion of my custody evaluator was, in fact, so negative that she suggested that I shouldn't trust my attorney for allowing this particular person to be a custody evaluator.

So, I am now on Team Grubs and I am going to be attacking this sideways rather than head-on.

So, I am now on Team Grubs and I am going to be attacking this sideways rather than head-on.

Best of luck with this barcher. I'm pretty confident in the end you are going to win. Just because you have the best interest of your kids in mind rather than the ex's desire to win at all costs. It's just going to really, really suck waiting for it to happen.

I'm pretty confident in the end you are going to win. Just because you have the best interest of your kids in mind rather than the ex's desire to win at all costs.

Thank you for the encouragement.

The problem is that I have no way to win this.. .it's like nuclear war... the only way to win that game is to not play. At this point, a "win" is to lose the least.