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I have said many times how sorry I am and have gone into dept of what I did. If I don't talk about the affair everyday then my husband thinks I'm just trying to sweep it under the rug. I don't feel terrible for the pain I have caused. Just it's hard to apologize when I am told I should have thought of that before. When he asks me why I cheated I tell him. It was nice for someone to pay attention to me and not treat me so bad. He says that's not a reason. My husband didn't treat me well. I did reach out to him but things didn't change. So when I chatted with my co worker things changed. He was kind and gave me attention and listened to me I didn't have to ask for it. I know I was selfish and I don't deserve another chance. I have given up lots of things to show I have made changes. He continues to tell me no matter what I do. I will be a cheater to him. So I don't understand why he is with me. He continues to talk bad about me. When he needs my help or wants to be intimate he is nice to me. Every weekend he tries to be nice as soon as the week starts it goes back to him giving me a hard time. He isn't ready to R with me.he wants me to feel ashamed for what I did every single day. I stopped saying sorry or talk about the affair because he tells me no matter what I do it won't change. So I'm not sure why were still married. I go to therapy I am told that I do need to heal. Before I cheated my husband abused me and I need to help from that. I have to learn to have love for myself. I haven't had love or respect for myself in a long time. I just feel like no matter what I do. I'm not sorry enough or it may seem that I don't care when I do. At times I do get upset with my husband because he just talks negative about me. He chooses not to see the changes I have made.

NOTE>>> I'm going to be a little tough with you, and I just wanted to say that up front so you'd know it's coming from a good place... because I want to see you succeed.

Empathy isn't hard. It's just walking that proverbial mile in the other guy's shoes. You have to use your imagination to really FEEL like you're experiencing someone else's point of view. And no, it will never be perfect because we can't look into anyone else's head, right? But empathy is about really TRYING... and I don't think you are.

You keep saying that the relationship was abusive, but what did you do about that? Because I'll tell you something, and this might sound harsh, but there was NO WAY that you were going to solve the problem of abuse in your relationship with someone else's genitals, and you had to know that. At some level, you KNEW that this wasn't about problems in your marriage. So, every time you say to him that it was about someone treating you nicely instead of how badly he treated you... you're just proving to him that you DON'T GET IT.

Even now, you're complaining that he's only nice to you when he wants sex, but what are you DOING about that? Have you asked him to leave? Have you seen an attorney and filed for divorce? Have you set a boundary of no sex until the abuse stops?? I don't want to minimize your experience, but the fact of the matter is that when something really hurts, we STOP DOING IT. If you put your hand down on a hot burner, you remove it as quickly as possible. So maybe this abuse isn't so painful as to demand an action from you? Maybe it's a tolerable kind of abuse???

IMHO, cheating is a character flaw. It's got nothing to do with your spouse or your marriage. A non-cheater could be in the exact same circumstances as you and still not cheat. It has to do with the gap between a person's stated values (fidelity, honesty) and their actual deeds (adultery, lies). Not everyone has that gap. Not everyone can say "yes" to infidelity. When we really BELIEVE in our core values, we can't just throw our integrity away and act in a way that's the polar opposite of what we honor in our lives. There's a "but..." it the cheater's core value of fidelity. ie. "She believes in fidelity, but... not if she needs someone to be nice to her." For the non-cheater, there's a "so..." instead. ie. "She believes in fidelity, so... she doesn't engage in risky behavior with the opposite sex". And voila!, like magic, a BOUNDARY appears to surround the core value/belief... "I don't engage with the opposite sex".

None of this was about your BH's abusive behavior. In fact, none of this was about your BH at all. If your core values were what you claimed they were when you made your vow of fidelity, your BH couldn't have made you cheat with a gun to your head. You've got a "but..." in your core value of fidelity, an out, an excuse you can make yourself believe in. Not everyone can do that. I can't. Hell, it doesn't sound to me like your BH could. But you can. So... why is that? Why are you capable of saying "yes" to cheating and lies? What exactly do you honor in your values system, if anything?

You keep saying you've made changes and your BH won't see them, but how can he? If you can't verbalize for him why your character was flawed enough to commit adultery, if you can't verbalize what has changed since then, how can you blame him for not believing you? Maybe early abuse in your life made you susceptible to a need for external validation? How did you resolve that? How does he KNOW that you're now capable of internal validation and that you're self-fruitful now so as to be immune to the next "nice" coworker who comes along? What have you done to understand the TRAUMA you've inflicted on him? Do you understand why he needs to talk about it every day? Do you understand the damage that has gone on in his brain which causes that? Or, is this just more "abuse" in your opinion? Where is your intellectual curiosity about HIS experience?

Believe me when I say that I am one of the least tolerant posters at SI when it comes to abusive BS's. While I do have an intimate understanding of the pain and frustration of betrayal, I have NEVER raised my voice to my fWH. It's understandable to lose one's temper under this kind of stress, but we're not animals and we should always strive for better. So, if he's truly abusive, leave him. Get an attorney, file for divorce, end the marriage. I do have to wonder though, because clearly you're not afraid of him. His abuse is not so bad that you needed to get away from him or that you were afraid to cheat on him. And it's NOT an excuse for your lack of core values or boundaries.

So, my advice to you is to STOP tolerating abuse, decide if you want this marriage or not, and if you do... get INVOLVED in the reconciliation process. If you can't access your empathy for your BH, try developing a CLINICAL UNDERSTANDING of his trauma. Immerse yourself in books and articles about trauma and the brain. The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk is the best work on trauma. I hear that Cheating in a Nutshell gives a good overview of the BS's experience. Understand WHY these question keep running through his mind every day. Understand WHY trauma victims ruminate on the injury. Understand the physiological impact of experiencing a trigger from his POV. If you study the BRAIN, it will begin to make sense to you.

Your BH says he can't see your changes. Maybe instead of just assuming that he's not looking, consider whether your changes are good enough, deep enough, lasting enough, visible enough. Empathy isn't hard. Maybe the fact that it's eluding you should be telling you something.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 11:56 PM, May 26th (Wednesday)]

Patty21,

What have you done to show him you are changing. There is a ton of information in the help library. There is one post that has helped me with my why's it was written by DaddyDom and it changed the way I worked my whys. And not just my why's for the affair, I've actually use his process to figure out a lot of personal issues I'd been trying to figure out.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/617173/the-process-of-discovering-our-true-and-34-why-and-39-s-and-34-/?AP=1

Have you started IC to help you figure out your why's? Patty I feel there is a lot that you need to address.

I know my BH went through crazy emotions after DDay. It was an emotional rollercoaster from Hell. But I choose to ride it with him, sometimes he would allow me to sit in the same cart and others he wanted me in a different cart but I was always on the ride with him. And we are still on our rollercoaster of recovery. (Sorry for the crummy analogy but it's the best I can do)

I understand that it may seem impossible for you to feel for you BH but you truly can do it if you want. Start off my just listening to him... Really listen with an open heart and open mind. DO NOT GET DEFENSIVE!! Try to understand him don't try to be understood. Put your pride and shame away and give him the floor. You can't fake empathy...so it's better to try to understand him. Be in the moment when he is sharing with you don't let your brain wonder keep focused on his words.

What I started doing is writing things my BH said to me down... Not everything not word for word but things that stung the most for me to hear. And I don't mean when he was lashing out in anger but when we had deep meaningful conversation. My BH has said some very profound things and I have them written down. I go back and re-read them and there are time when I go back and ask BH do you still feel _______? This shows him I truly care and I listen to what he is saying. It has also helped me put myself in his shoes.

When was your Dday?

No stop sign, XBH here. Do you still work with the co-worker who you had the A with? If so, it’s no wonder why your BH is nice to you on weekends and gives you a hard time during the week.

I actually start a new job in June. It was hard to find a job because I only had so much experience in that field. So I do hope that will help. Also my D day was in dec. I want to be in my husband's shoes. I feel as those he pushes me away. So I'm not sure how to be on his level.

When he needs my help or wants to be intimate he is nice to me.

He can’t be nice to you when it’s convenient for him or he wants sex, and then berate you the rest of the time. Why are you letting him do that?

My honest advice based on what you’ve both posted is to end the marriage. It’s not healthy. Focus on working on yourself and let him do the same and stop letting him use you as an emotional punching bag and sex toy.

I’m also going to add that even though there are many people who have been betrayed here and many who have cheated, I’m guessing there are fewer who have been in a truly abusive relationship and understand what that does to a person. You’ll need a counselor that has experience working through that and I have to imagine it’s going to be very hard to heal from that if you’re still with the abuser.

Idk why I give in to being intimate. I have been abused growing up and then was in a abusive/verbal abuse relationship with my son's father. I have tried to put my foot down but after a week I give in. At times I'm not good with my words or when I do try to be on my husband's level he shuts me down alot and then I feel just lost. At times I will give him a massage or do things around the the house to show him I do care. I know if I do those things he appreciates it. I have been working on having love, compassion and respect for myself. For a long time I haven't done that. It's a cycle of abuse that I have gone through. I stay with my husband because I do love him. I know I cheated on him and I want to show him when times get tough I will be there. I want to have respect for myself and be happy

My husband didn't treat me well. I did reach out to him but things didn't change. So when I chatted with my co worker things changed. He was kind and gave me attention and listened to me I didn't have to ask for it.

Let's just assume this is true for a minute. Your BH is still treating you poorly which means all it takes it another potential OM to come along and give you attention for you to cheat again. If this is your reason, your BH is right. You are still a cheater. You are still in the situation that made you cheat. He has every reason to feel like you haven't changed when you say this because according to you, what lead to the cheating is still the same. So do you want to keep focusing on this as the reason or are you ready to explore WHY you debased yourself and ruined your relationship further by allowing OM in when he gave you a little attention? Are you ready to explore a reason that YOU have control over and not one that your BH needs to manage?

I have been working on having love, compassion and respect for myself. For a long time I haven't done that. It's a cycle of abuse that I have gone through. I stay with my husband because I do love him. I know I cheated on him and I want to show him when times get tough I will be there. I want to have respect for myself and be happy

Frankly speaking - people in abusive relationships don't have love, compassion, and respect for themselves. Because having those three things means that you're willing to put yourself above the abuser even if you love them too and even if it means the end of the relationship. It's not saying "stop" or "no" for a week and then giving in. It's ending the relationship when that "stop" and "no" isn't being respected hence having respect for yourself. So why isn't ending the marriage an option for you if the abuse continues and you can't stop it?

I don't want to end it because there was a time when my husband wasn't abusive towards me. Also the only option is to move back to IL. I want to stay in Az even if that means being alone. It felt great to be on my own then living back with my mom. I guess I really need to think about what I want. I have explored why I did cheat and it's not a good reason. So I have alot of work to do.

I am going to therapy to work on myself and heal from the trauma I had growing up, during my relationship with my son's father and this recent relationship. I have no desire to cheat on my husband or anyone. I am working on standing up for myself. I didn't get that growing up. I had no control in my life so it made me last out on poor choices. I have looked back on that and I am ashamed of being that person. That's why I do work on myself. My husband has said he wants to work with me. So I want that chance. If we don't work out because of my affair. Then I will part ways. I just want to heal in general and have love/respect because I haven't done that much of my life. I want to stop feeling ashamed

There's some incredible feedback here already. ChamomileTea really articulated some quality things for you to consider.

What I read from your post is questions and statements but no indications of what all you're doing about it. What actions are you taking as an effort to learn empathy? It's easy to tell someone/SI.com "I want to be [fill in here]...please help me change." It's just as easy for you to do a Google search for your answer than it is to engage in a dialog here on SI.com. But when push comes to shove a question asked, here or on Google, doesn't equate to a genuine desire to change. This isn't true only for WS's. As people we are all prone to deceiving ourselves. We may convince ourselves that we really care and really want to change by posturing and creating an echo chamber filled with all the things that support our cognitive dissonance.

Talk is cheap. Show me action, effort and a willingness to be uncomfortable and I'll show you someone who put their money where their mouth is.

I imagine you're facing your own unique pain and injustices from your H's imperfections (and, if you're not rewriting history/falsely convincing yourself that he's an abusive animal....the legitimate suffering he has caused you). The raw truth is that just because you betrayed your husband, that does not mean he was without fault or areas to improve. There's no need to speak of his own imperfections while asking how you can improve as though we need to be assured that he wasn't perfect. Like every other spouse on earth, he has room for improvement. But your BH is alone in the suffering your betrayal and it's effects. I recommend you quickly accept that the problems caused by spousal betrayal are precise and acute. Do not confuse his own need to be "work in progress" as related to your betrayal. If he's broken your own trust via being abusive, you are right to end your M. But don't pass the buck on owning your shit. As was mentioned, nothing he did justifies intimate betrayal anymore than you burning his dinner would justify him punching you in the face.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 2:35 PM, May 27th (Thursday)]

NotMyFirstRodeo makes some great points. You're not engaging with us. You're not telling us what you're going to do to solve your problems or dealing with points we've raised. You're not asking questions or showing intellectual curiosity for the process of healing in R. You're not talking about what you've read or asking what you should be reading. You're simply telling us that you're "getting therapy" for all the abuse you've suffered. You're not telling us what you're going to do about the abuse you've dished out. You get that you aren't the victim in this, right? You're an abuser. And hey, I get it. Many of us had challenging home environments growing up. Many of us have suffered abusive people and situations. That's not what makes people cheat though. Otherwise, we'd all be WS's.

I think your BH should leave you. He's young. He can start over with someone new. I think he can get into some therapy, resolve his tendency to verbally lash out, and probably learn to be a pretty good partner for someone else. How do you FEEL about that? Can you give me some reasons why he shouldn't? Can you engage with this thread that YOU started and show us what you're learning about empathy?.. about R?.. about shame? Can you SEE why your BH is frustrated?

Yes I have have alot of work to do and I need to make time to read and use the advice being given to me.i know I am an abuser and what I did to my husband I have no excuse. I really need to listen to my husband and his feelings. Really be on his level. I need to dig deeper on why I thought it was okay to cheat and break my vows.i need to show that I am remorseful for my actions. It would hurt me if my husband did leave but he does deserve to start over and have someone who will love/be there when times get tough. Clearly I couldn't do that. I went to someone else. I guess I have a hard time expressing how I feel and showing I am sorry. I need to put my shame and pride to the side and really own up to what I did. I do want to be a safe partner for my husband or anyone else if it doesn't work out. Now that I am not working at this place. I think it should help me focus on what I did wrong.it was stressful going to work when I know it triggers my husband

Also I was writing letters everyday explaining to my husband how sorry I was for what u did. That I was sorry for hurting, the lies and betraying him. I would tell him that I wanted to be better. I did everything he asked. I stopped the affair, I don't drink or smoke, I gave up social media, I keep location on my phone. I let him know where I am at. I don't go anywhere alone. I would apologize many times for the abuse for lying to him for letting another man into my life and having a sexual relationship. My husband just tells me that I should have thought of that before. I know having the affair wouldn't fix anything.i allowed myself to think it was okay to do. In time it made me feel sick of living two different lives that's when I ended it. Yes I was scared to tell my husband and wasn't honest with him. But I really have been making efforts. When I do share my reasons of why I did it. I guess that's not good enough and I need to really think about it. I just feel as though when I am pushed away that it doesn't matter how many times I apologize or write letters it won't change what I did. Yes I am scared to lose my husband but the truth is I lost him the minute I decided to cheat. I think about how I wish I was more vocal on how I felt about the abuse and wish I seemed therapy sooner and even marriage counseling as well.

1) I need to make time to read

2) I really need to listen to my husband and his feelings.

3) I need to dig deeper on why I thought it was okay to cheat and break my vows.

4) i need to show that I am remorseful for my actions.

5) I need to put my shame and pride to the side and really own up to what I did.

See? You came up with five good places to start right there. Well done. Now, start flushing those "I need to..." statements out with an action plan.

1) Choose what to read and find time to do it. If you haven't already read Linda McDonald's How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair, start there. Understand what good rebuilders do in order to be successful. Understand the trauma going on inside your BH's brain. Read about that trauma. Look for articles online as well. Research it like it's your JOB. Give up something else you like doing in order to find the time. This will bring you a CLINICAL UNDERSTANDING and that can help you reach real empathy because it increases the data you have available when you imagine what it feels like to be him.

2) Listening is HEALING. Talking is HEALING. It's not always comfortable, and it can lead to conflict. But it can also be constructive. In fact, it's the only way to GET TO "constructive". Conflict is OPPORTUNITY to put something right. You listen and then you put it in your own words and say it back to him. He'll tell you when you finally have it right. Sometimes we have to Listen, Rephrase, and Repeat a half dozen times before we really understand what the other person is trying to tell us. But you just stay with it until you've got it.

As you study Trauma, you're going to realize that these thoughts are always on his mind, like they're on a loop. Early on, we can't help it. Later, it will be good for him to learn ways to defeat rumination, but that can't happen in R until AFTER he feels understood.

3) Yeah. You do need to dig deeper. Your choices aren't any one else's but YOURS. No one forced you to do the things you did, so you need to tune into what it is that YOU value and figure out how you gave yourself permission to do something you KNEW was wrong and harmful to your family dynamic and your BH. You might not have fully understood just HOW harmful, but you knew you were wrong when you made those decisions. Don't be afraid to dig into that. There's no way around. You have to go THROUGH. And there are WS's here who can give you really good counsel on how to do it. The important bit though is that you take full 100% responsibility for it. You can't fix what you won't acknowledge, right?

4) There are all sorts of ways to show that you're remorseful. You can really WORK on your issues. You can tell your BH you're sorry every time you notice he's suffering. You can take 100% responsibility and MEAN IT. And none of that means that you have to be a doormat.

You have to separate out the issues and resolve them each on their own. If your BH can't resolve his tendency to lash out verbally, that's something which has to be dealt with... meaning, that if he can't/won't change his demeanor in that regard, you need to end the marriage. No one should tolerate abuse. Whether that's him abusing you with his words or you abusing him with your cheating, it's ALL wrong. We aren't animals. We CAN do better, right? You can be sorry for the things you've done without accepting any further abuse, and so can he. It's up to each of you to own the things you've done, but don't think for a minute that there can be equivalences and swapping here. These sins are completely separate and must be broken down, taken apart, and remediated separately.

5) Exactly. You do need to put your shame and pride away. You can't feel two emotions at one time. How can you feel empathy for your BH when you're stuck in your shame spiral? How can you experience real remorse if you're caught up in pride? Shame spirals are actually dangerous to your R. They can cause a WS to give up on an otherwise salvageable marriage. They can keep a WS from digging as deeply in their internal issues as they need to dig. Look at it this way, you don't really have time for shame. You've got so many other emotions you NEED to experience in order to get your head on straight. Shame is an indulgence. It's self-pity rather than self-compassion. Shame is about YOU, not about your BH or your family dynamic. Remember that the difference between self-pity and self compassion is that one tears you down and the other lifts you up. It's okay to SEE the ugly parts of your character. They're not going to blind you. You have to identify what went wrong before you can fix it, right? You can say, I fucked this up because I (fill-in-the-blank) and I'm so sorry and I know I can do better because I can change (fill-in-the-blank). It's seeing you deal with these deficits and talking openly about what's happening internally and CARING about what your partner is going through which shows your BS that your ARE remorseful.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 10:05 PM, May 27th (Thursday)]

Let me ask you, which one is worse.

-You are drunk and you drive your car from a bar to your home real fast at night. A cop pulled you over and you got a DUI.

-You are drunk and you drive your car from a bar to your home real fas at night. You hit an individual and drove away in panic because you thought if you get caught drunk they will charge you with murder.

Do you see it? Because the latter one is exactly what happened in your marriage.

When people don't like where they are within their marriage, being constantly not treat well by their spouse. So they either open this up to their spouse or simply leave. Means they choose to walk away "clean".

So cheating due to these reasons are not really reasons. Thry were just external triggers you responded to. Your mind was already in it. You just eaited the closest signal from another man to make a move on you.

You cheated, because you were capable of. You decided to cope with the resentment sgainst your spouse with the disrespect of the affair and affaur partner's existence, or with more tangible things like his messages about your marriage, your spouse and how much of a jackass your husband is etc.

Disrespect diminishes Resentment. Cheaters usually create this dimension in the expense of their Betrayed spouse to have their way. Both Having their family intact and getting emotional support from someone.

But you forgot what you were destroying while acting on these means. You destroyed your husband's soul now. A part of him just shattered, ever thought about that?

Yeah, you maybe thought this bastard deserved this long time ago...

Cheating isn't as simple as you see or make it out to be. It destroys lives. There are men and women that live for decades to never really get over it.

So I suggest you keep your tabs a lot more differently and start addressing ehst you really did and how did this affected people. He's trying to sign it to you that he is broken without words. Gotta understand the magnitude and take responsibility.

Abuse is traumatic and can cause life long ptsd, cheating causes trauma and life long pain.

Neither are ok. so Its time to go. none of this is serving either of you.

No one deserves either but as an abused person, I can also see why a person would try to escape even by cheating. sometimes the option is suicide. been there. when you get so berated and low you think about ending it because you dont have enough tools to get yourself strong enough,beaten down so much emotionally or physically you feel worthless. you want anyone to rescue you.

still you dont need to cheat. But I can say abusing someone is also not ok. in this marriage you have, neither are getting better because you are getting treatment that may be unfair and gaslighting. you also dont know how to have remorse over an abusive person. you probably did it to know if you were worthy or if someone else would abuse you too.

Nonetheless, seeking counseling then hearing those things from a professional is better then seeking someone else. you must leave the abuser and move forward.