SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

More just need to get this out of my head than anything else. Haven't been here for a looooong time. Maybe there's a clue in that. It has been 7.5 years since D-Day. We had a newborn son at the time. Since then we have had three more children and finally bought our own home which we will soon be moving into. It's a pretty massive time in our lives.

Today, at a work function, I found myself in a situation where I was asked in front of a large group of colleagues if I could please give a female co-worker a lift to the venue we were all heading to for lunch. A car ride alone with a woman is not ok as per our long-time established boundaries.

In the couple seconds that followed my thought process wasn't the right one. It should have been 'BZZZT NO'... Straight away. Give the right answer first, the answer that honours my wife and the horrible mess I made of our lives, and THEN figure out how to deal with how that looked.

Instead, that few seconds sounded more like, 'If I say no to this, will it look blatantly obvious why I'm saying no, and therefore begin a string of water-cooler gossip style rumours and in so doing - inadvertently share the true nature of my marital history with a bunch of people I work with.

I panicked, not wanting information my BS has never even shared with her own family to become the topic of salacious work place banter, and said yes. And gave this lady a ride to lunch.

To be clear, I couldn't give less of a fuck whether or not these people were aware of MY history. I owned that, and the fact that if/when anyone I would rather didn't know found out - that I would have to deal with it. Whole mess is my doing after all. But in this really important moment today when I had an opportunity to make a very good choice, in an environment where my BS had absolutely no way of knowing where/what I was doing, I managed to fail to make that right choice. I managed to not click straight away that out of those two options (even if you fully accept that I was more worried about sharing my wife's secrets than I was about my own embarrassment - and I don't expect a single person on here to believe that for one second) the one I chose was by FFAAARRRR the worst. I put the stability of our marriage at risk in favour of a bunch of randoms (most of whom have never met my wife) being able to speculate about why I might not want to give a lady a ride.

I feel like this was monumentally stupid, and even more incredibly disappointing - that given where we are in life after my affairs, that I would have allowed myself to become this comfortable, that I would be able to be asked for a ride by a woman and say yes at all. I feel like these are the kinds of moments that as WS's we are basically training for and making sure we are safe for from the day we get our shit together onwards. Basically being battle ready I guess. And the idea is that whenever that scenario that could compromise us arrives, that we know exactly what to do, what to say, and we do it or say it.

I failed at that today. BS is beyond furious of course, but worse than that, there is so much good and positive stuff going on in our lives, it also throws her into a horrible familiar place full of doubt and fear and sadness - and it saps any of the good or happiness out and that's so so unfair on her.

Like I said, I think I just needed to get these thoughts out, I don't have any questions as such, I know without equivocation what happened today was unacceptable and that I need to reflect, BIG TIME, on just how comfortable I have gotten and maybe come up with some ideas as to how and why I've allowed it to happen. And in the mean time just do anything and everything BS needs to work towards feeling safe again. Not presuming for a moment that that's a foregone conclusion.

I think I chose this place to come back to for this because when I was here before there was always something I hadn't thought of and there was always an angle (or several) I was missing and so there was always an opportunity for better growth through the insights of others. I'm always open to that, even if it's a slap down. Hence the lack of stop sign.

[This message edited by theseseatsRtaken at 4:44 AM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

Wow...it HAS been a while!!

There is a simple solution to this issue...although with y'all being from Australia...it may seem odd. Have you ever heard of Billy Graham? He was a United States Evangelical Preacher for MANY decades. He was well respected and a true Man of God . Well...Billy Graham came up with a RULE...and it would go quite nicely in any future dilemma like this!

I had never heard of it before...until my H was in a somewhat similar situation...only it was in an elevator with a woman who was a stranger. He told me how he had been applying the Billy Graham Rule...but he stepped onto an elevator without first seeing who was inside...and realized he was alone with a woman. I had NO IDEA what he was talking about!!

My H had been in a mens group online that had talked about this rule. Billy Graham made it a rule to never spend time alone with a woman who was not his wife. It was a way of avoiding temptation...avoiding being accused of sexual harassment or assault...and more importantly...a way to HONOR his wife and their marriage vows .

The men in this group my H was in have also stated that they want to implement the Billy Graham Rule . It is more common than I thought...and it may help to get you out of a situation like you were in. Just say..."Sorry...Billy Graham Rule"! It will do the opposite of making people think what YOU think they are thinking . To HONOR your wonderful wife this way will show HER your actions go with your words .

Please tell your awesome wife that I said "HI" !!!

I dunno what to say, other than as a woman in a male-dominated biz, the Billy Graham rule is basically a way to ensure that women remain marginalized and seen as "other" at the office (or worst case, not even hired). IOW, if men are only able to be alone with other men, how the heck does a woman get to "work" with those men? Learn and get ahead?

gmc94...you work alone with men?

Theseseats, I use the #metoo movement as a reason to avoid these situations. Just say “for her comfort, and mine, I would prefer to take more than one person”. If people press, just say you don’t want to get metoo’d. Just about everyone gets that rationale and those that don’t are the ones you don’t want to be alone with for sure.

Buck...I think that would be a great thing too . There are many scenarios that can work with planning!

I tend to agree with GMC but I have not been in the OP position.

just say you don’t want to get metoo’d

That sort of implies that the W co-worker who needs a ride is the problem, that she's a threat to your reputation.

I feel like authenticity and honesty here is best. While I understand that it’s hard to not only be put on the spot like that but to also not want to cause disruption in saying no, I think it would be a good thing to practice not only for your wife but for yourself. Saying no when we mean no helps us keep our sense of power in doing what’s true to ourselves and how we feel.

In this scenario you said yes when you meant no, and as a result ended up feeling negatively about going against yourself. Sometimes saying no can upset people that expect u to say yes to them - and upsetting people in that way can feel uncomfortable. It takes a courage (and practice) to do that, especially when on the spot at a work function. Perhaps you could have said something like, “I understand why you think it would be a good idea for me to do ______ but unfortunately I’m going to have to say no/I’m going to have to decline.” And if you choose to say, “my wife and I have an agreement that I want to honor” or something like that then you can but you don’t have to. People don’t have to have an explanation or insight into your personal reasonings if you don’t want to invite them to.

Or you could shift it to someone else and say, “actually I think it would be best if our coworker rode with x.” Although what I don’t like about that is that your coworker isn’t making the decision for herself.

Just try to be honest, it’ll help you practice this in other aspects of your life and help you get your power back from scenarios where you may find yourself people pleasing out of fear of confrontation or rejection of some sort. If you’re in IC, let yourself therapist know and they may be able to help u work on this too.

Also, don’t be so hard on yourself for this. Saying no, especially at a work place can be hard for a lot of us. If you expressed how you felt in that moment and what you struggled with to your wife and she has suggestions that may help too.

[This message edited by maise at 11:53 AM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

“just say you don’t want to get metoo’d”

That sort of implies that the W co-worker who needs a ride is the problem, that she's a threat to your reputation.

I agree with GMC and with this ^^^ it sends the message that your coworker could potentially be a risk to you in lying about something happening to her - which also undercuts what the metoo movement is about.

[This message edited by maise at 11:51 AM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

It's done, and all you can do is pick over the bones to see if there is anything to learn from it.

You told your BS about it, which while causing the fallout, was the right thing to do. So you are not a lost cause.

the one I chose was by FFAAARRRR the worst. I put the stability of our marriage at risk in favour of a bunch of randoms (most of whom have never met my wife) being able to speculate about why I might not want to give a lady a ride

If you are going to put some thought into anything - that is it. Why exactly did it matter? And it likely will not be the immediate answer that comes to your mind.

I'm hanging out here 5 years after D-Dday because I too realized I had room to grow and improve - I had an radio playing app on my phone called iHeart Radio. The icon looked like a little heart with an I in the middle. My BW saw it and thought the worst before taking my phone from my hand and checking it. 4 and a half years later and she was at D-Day plus one for all intents and purposes. Now about 1.5 years later and we are back to a good place. It took that much time.

And so we stumble along and try to do the best we can, except hopefully after doing all the work to get to R and fix our M we are better prepared to have some real good conversations with our significant other about these things.

From how you write today with your honest insights, it is miles ahead of where so many of us waywards were in the days after D-Day. So much as I did - take stock of where you are at and why you in the moment chose to do the wrong thing.

Reminds me of when I used to coach. I was adamant about the two parent/adult rule. No child in change room, or anywhere else with only one adult present. The eye rolls I'd get from parents when I had one straggler kid and made someone else wait with my assistant coach. It was no exceptions. I should have followed that rule in other parts of my life too. No exceptions.

Is your BS upset or disappointed?

gmc94...you work alone with men?

yes, I have.

I’ve been the only woman in the office or room PLENTY of times.

I’ve been on biz trips with men - as the only woman (even decades ago- IIRC once when early in my last pregnancy… had to make up excuses for why I wasn’t drinking with the boys)

And I never had an A

gmc94...I apologize...I didn't write it correctly. I have worked as the only woman with men before as well. But I have never been alone with a male coworker. Ever. I stopped working before the "metoo" movement...but it was never an issue with my growth in the company.

A lot of people have misunderstood the Billy Graham as some form of marginalization of women. It wasn't that at all. Graham was well-known for being a gracious counselor and mentor.

It wasn't about being afraid of women. It wasn't about being afraid of his own sexuality. It was about acknowledging reality.

It is striking that Graham was never a party to an affair or had any scandal at all in all of his years of preaching. The same cannot be said for a great many of his evangelical contemporaries.

He understood that we are all flawed and broken people (regardless of whether you're a Christian, most people who have some years of adult life under their belts understand this truth). He understood this about himself. He simply didn't want to put himself or any woman in a "not just friends" position.

"Not Just Friends" confirms Graham's wisdom, pointing out repeatedly that work is a danger zone for adultery, and that opportunity is everywhere for "friendships" to quickly devolve into affairs. The MeToo movement also demonstrates the wisdom of Graham's rule. He wasn't excluding women. He simply didn't place himself or women in situations that could have been comprising, uncomfortable or harmful for either person.

I'm always confused at the negative reaction to this, especailly for those here who have been betrayed.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:35 PM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

because its a rule that ASSUMES the ill intention of someone who has done nothing to warrant it.

I have been betrayed. And have no interest in risking my livelihood for the sake of the cheap thrill.

I have my own opinions about Billy Graham so little he says is impactful.

I could crawl over a floor full of naked men completely naked and not fall on a penis that did belong to my husband...even though we are separated.

I am tempted by chocolate cake...but I don't run around robbing bakeries.

And the metoo movement was about the POWER structure of sexual harassment...not being a room with a person of the opposite sex. A person can be assaulted in a room full of people.

And if the reality is you can't control yourself regarding friendships with the opposite sex...then the location of the friendships is of no consequence.

because its a rule that ASSUMES the ill intention of someone who has done nothing to warrant it.

No it doesn’t. It assumes no such thing. It assumes the same thing as the book “Not just friends” assumes.

And if the reality is you can't control yourself regarding friendships with the opposite sex...then the location of the friendships is of no consequence.

Classic straw man reasoning and logically false.[

I am tempted by chocolate cake...but I don't run around robbing bakeries.

I like Oreos. I don’t buy them or keep them around the house. Not because I assume I’ll eat the whole bag but because I simply don’t want them around to eat them. That doesn’t make me a person with an eating disorder. It makes me a person making a wise decision for my health.

It is standard advice here at SI that BS’s avoid alcohol for a good long time. Not because we assume BS’s are all alcoholics in waiting but because it is unhealthy. Naturally it's good advice for BS’s to avoid placing themselves in situations where alcohol might be a possible temptation. This is wise, not a commentary on the Bourbon industry in Kentucky, nor is it a suggestion that BS’s are unable to control themselves.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:28 PM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

Goodness Thumos, we are finally going to disagree on something, lol. I have been alone with many a male coworker. One did sexually harrass me, but that's not because I was a woman and he was a man. That's because he was a shit with no boundaries and apparently thought work was a nightclub. He wound up fired over his behavior with another subordinate. I have spent many a meeting alone in an office with a man and aside from that one guy, all has been on the up and up. Grown adult mature people do not need to segregate by gender. It absolutely would make me feel infantalized and demeaned if I could not be alone in an office strategizing with my boss because I have a vagina. It would affect my ability to have a career. I have no time for Billy Graham's opinions on many things, but definitely zero time for this one. I'm a professional in the office, not genitalia with legs.

As an aside to this, I work with a lot of gay people. Not sure how they're supposed to abide by this gender foolishness.

Grown adult mature people do not need to segregate by gender. It absolutely would make me feel infantalized and demeaned if I could not be alone in an office strategizing with my boss because I have a vagina.

Which I understand. But men who choose to invoke the Billy Graham rule should not be shamed or told they are doing something wrong. Or certainly should not be told that by implication they are somehow suggesting they are inborn lotharios unable to control their baser lusts simply by virtue of invoking this choice. Or that they are seeking to insult women by having this boundary. It's an individual choice and a perfectly legitimate one. Nay even a healthy one.

I'm a professional in the office, not genitalia with legs

.

Sorry but this also falls into the strawman trap.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:20 PM, July 7th (Wednesday)]

Everyone has their own opinion...and I stated mine. I am very HAPPY that my H has CHOSEN to go by the Billy Graham Rule . He HONORS me by doing this...and I LOVE it!!

This has caused NO issues with other women climbing the corporate ladder where he works. But if ANY of them have any intention of doing it by laying my H...they won't make it that way.

And I LOVE Billy Graham and his wonderful sermons !!!

Which I understand. But men who choose to invoke the Billy Graham rule should not be shamed or told they are doing something wrong. Or certainly should not be told that by implication they are somehow suggesting they are inborn lotharios unable to control their baser lusts simply by virtue of invoking this choice. Or that they are seeking to insult women by having this boundary. It's an individual choice and a perfectly legitimate one. Nay even a healthy one.

It would be fine for my boss. It would mean I didn't have my job title but that a man did instead as he could not work so closely with me if he lived by that rule.

Well actually, no, it would mean he didn't have his own job title as his boss is a woman and he has to meet with her regularly too. Hmm. Maybe I'd have his job instead and it would be women all the way down in my scenario. I guess it could work in my favor after all.

Sorry but this also falls into the strawman trap.

I genuinely don't see how. Such a rule defines me by my genitals, not by who I am or what role I'm in at work. I am in that office because of my expertise. That expertise is completely unrelated to my gender, sexual orientation, favorite color, or choice of nail polish.

Thumas...I generally agree with most of your thoughts. We will agree to disagree on most of what you posted.

I don't believe that in the respectful exchange of ideas there is no strawman argument. If fact it comes across as condescending as if your "logic" is all that matters.

I am not fan of Just Friends for various reasons....one of those being that work friendships/realtionship are slippery slopes. those relationships become an issue due to one's own personal issues...not the realtionship in its self.

I absolutely keep chocolate cake in my house...and have enough self control and discipline to not abuse it. The same with my male friendships.

As far as Billy Graham.....I share very little in common with him or his interpretation of religion but respect the fact that others believe him. And for those that chose to follow that rule.. they should actually believe in it...not invoke it to avood having a uncomfortable conversation, or avoid asserting appropriate boundaries.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 5:38 PM, July 7th (Wednesday)]