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DaddyDom
Again your hits hit everything for me..I like the ideas of trying to reconnect on smaller things getting back to a couple doing things together which is somthing we never do.

I like the ideas of trying to reconnect on smaller things getting back to a couple doing things together which is somthing we never do.

Good! I assume your wife is away this weekend, so in the meanwhile, pick one or more of those things. Don't bug her about it right now however, she's dealing with other stuff, but when she gets back, suggest to her whatever you picked. After a week away of dealing with stress, it might be nice to come home a nice surprise. Are there things you can do to make her happy in the meantime? Maybe a "honey-do" list of things she's asked for?

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves for reconnection. I don't know in what world a freshly betrayed spouse wants to reconnect with their lying serial cheater.

I do love my wife.but I don't think I am In love with her

This is a statement you should probably put some thought to. Now, this is a very classic chapter in the Wayward 101 handbook, under Speeches. We tend to spew shit at the onset of discovery. We want to immediately justify and blame shift to take the heat off ourselves.

But its worth a pause to examine your words. Because if you don't truly love her what is the point of all of this? You'll be  wasting your time and there's no point in stringing along Dragn, you've put her through such hell already.

The tricky part is stopping yourself and saying no actually this is my fault. And believing it. All you have to do right now in this moment is get to that point. It shifts the narrative and allows for your defensive wall to soften, it crucial that you get here. You will make zero strides remaining behind your excuses.

I might get in trouble for this but you need to hear it. You're not going to hear it anywhere else, so here it goes.

Seems the first words out of your mouth were "what did you expect?" when your wife busted you. You immediately put the blame on her. Can you tell me how you feel about that now? Is Dragn still in your mind responsible for your cheating? We need to address this. Its "okay" if you feel this way but its not okay to continue. We can help you with that.

Second thing, you don't have to worry about digging deep for your whys just yet. You've got a long road ahead of you for that and quite frankly you're not ready and neither is your situation. What your energy is best spent on is the more immediate emergency. Which is relatively simple even for someone who likes taking the easy way such as yourself.

I'm going to guess you aren't completely clueless to Dragns needs right now. I feel like she's given you some direction, hell you can figure it out by reading here if she's not so understandably open with you at the moment. You are sleeping on the couch and you are experiencing in house separation. It seems to me she would like more distance and more space. And if you could arrange that by oh.. idk.. parking a camper in the driveway?

I feel like you need things spelled out crystal clear and she can only do so much as its not really her job to get you take the initiative. Someone needs to help you along but it can't be her. It should be your own initiative but I'm sure what you are capable of just yet.

But back to that camper arrangement, I'm sure it doesn't sound convenient to you, but it can't be any more convenient than being cheated on and seeing it with your own eyes. So maybe you can take one for the team this time. A successful rebuilder provides certain things for their betrayed spouse and space is one of them.

And that brings me to another thing to get you started Transparency and total honesty. With all that space from you it can be triggery for the traumatized brain. So being transparent does wonders to ease the triggers and mind movies. It will send a message that she can if nothing else consider your truthfulness and open up to the possibility that not everything coming from your mouth is lie. There's no guarantee, you've done great damage here and you have a long road to regain her trust.

Google what total transparency looks like and implement it. And don't wait for her to ask for it.

Make yourself tell nothing but truths and offer them up without her asking for it.

I think you will have to take things on in small chunks, getting comfortable with it until it gets easy and natural for you. Until you are ready and prepared for the next steps. I'm trying very hard not to doubt your ability here, Ddom was right, we should be helpful but it only goes as far as your own capability to help yourself. Do you know the saying "when someone shows you their true colors believe them"? You're literally showing one unpleasant color. So you'll have to try and understand the nonbelievers.

But anyway, to recap.

1. Stop Blame-shifting (take ownership of your choices and know ALL of this is on you).

2. GIVE HER SPACE

3. Total transparency and show her proof that you being honest (that's the kicker your words are worthless you have to give solid proof that you are NC, knowing your whereabouts, and anything else you can think of to ease her mind)

Pretty easy steps if you ask me. Start here it might open some internal doors for you.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 4:05 PM, Saturday, March 19th]

One of my common mistakes is complacency. BS and I have a couple of good days, maybe we’ve talked, had an evening out together and I think things are starting to get better. I’ve lost count of the number of times we get here and I drop the ball. Either by not doing something I say I will or don’t think before speaking. Anything which proves to BS that I’m still not there in owning my infidelity and taking control of R.

Reading the basic steps written above by FL made me realise once again I’m no where near R material and I need to be.

Thanks

I try to give space for her..then get told I am avoiding her..I try to talk and I come across as a damn fool...I am trying to engage in conversation somthing that should be so simple is becoming so hard for me..I don't even know what I can day to her..do I talk about the affair do I talk about how I feel..

do I talk about the affair do I talk about how I feel..

How is the progress going in your list? Did you finish the timeline? If so, that’s a good place to start. Read that timeline over and over again. Make sure there are no holes in it. Then let her know that you are available to discuss the timeline and answer any of her questions.

I really think you need to read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair. It is basically a roadmap. The answer to your question above is "yes" to both. Talk to her about your affair and also talk to her about how you feel. Most importantly, talk to her about how you feel she feels and if you don’t understand it, ask her that. She needs that empathy and she needs you to be vulnerable here.

I would try to avoid statements like "do you want to talk?" That puts too much on her to initiate talking to you about the pain you keep putting her through. When you have a poignant thought about your affair(s) let her know by saying "I have been doing a lot of thinking about (fill in the blank). I can see how that made you feel (fill in the blank). Then genuinely apologize or begin a discussion on steps you can take to make some changes. Discuss it in therapy, keep working on yourself.

I think one of the questions you need to be able to ask yourself is why is this time different? Is because this time you believe her when she says she is done? Is this the first time you are feeling real consequences for your actions? I am sure once you have these answers, Dragn would want to understand them, as well.

In order to have a conversation with her you need to be able to have them with yourself first.

WalkinOnEggshelz
Yes time has been finished we went throught it together. Trying to remeber names and dates..
This is different I am finally getting a taste of what will happen and I do believe it is the wake up call I need to help me out

There is no wake up call. There is nothing she can do to make you change or to make you want to change. That has to come from you. And it has to be because you want to do the right thing by yourself, not by her.

I don't think you need a roadmap to help your wife heal from your infidelity. You need a roadmap to help yourself heal first. And one of the things that should happen is learning to let go of the outcome of your current situation.

****
None of this is different than what has happened before. And even if she follows through with the divorce (which would be different for her, not for you) - it still changes nothing. You need to figure out who you want to be and how to get to that person; which takes a long time and a lot of effort (it's worth it). Whether your wife decides to extend her grace and wait for you to get there should have absolutely no role to play in your decision to be a better person.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 12:00 AM, Tuesday, March 22nd]

So in my position at work I must have all contacts of people in my work..they have to be able to get a hold of me and I have to be able to reach them..so I have a personal cell phone and a company cell phone...
My wife has access to both of them no questions asked she can see any messages coming and going..and yes the affair person is on there...my wife says I am to have no contact with my affair and if I do I have to let my wife know...the other day my wife took my phone and looked it over...she has taken the number of my affair and is now texting her..is this normal? The person I had the affair with didn't say anything to me but walked up and just showed me her phone with questions about the affair and if we used condoms and telling her she is not the first person I have slept with...I know it was my wife texting her as I saw the phone number on top of the screen of her phone.

And now dragon reads my post and all hell breaks loose now that I didn't tell her about my affair just showing me her phone guess that's a lie by omission and we fight again

You sound resentful about a consequence of your own actions. Why is that?

WalkinOnEggshelz
I dont know I am still trying to wrap my head around all of this...I can't make heads or tails of anything...I understand yes this is consequences or my actions.

guess that's a lie by omission and we fight again

you guess? So what part of "any contact with AP needs to be shared" do you not understand? What would you call it?

she has taken the number of my affair and is now texting her..is this normal?

lol there is no "normal" after being cheated on. Look I'm sure she would love nothing more than to get her answers from you. Unfortunately you aren't the greatest source for information. You can't even tell her the most basic things like AP breaking NC.

Were you afraid to tell her that you and AP made contact or what? I'm just trying to understand why you didn't disclose that to Dragn? Its actually super important, if you really want help you're gonna have to give us stuff to go off of.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 11:37 AM, Tuesday, March 22nd]

Hey BH,

Your A's threw normal in the trash. Maybe it became normal in your M for you to be conducting A's, but what's not "normal" now is your BW's reaction. She's saturated with the pain your A's have put her through and is putting her foot down.

I agree with others here who say it's too soon to reconnect with your BW. She's hurting and in hell.

It's normal for BS's to want full access to electronics. My BH was pleasantly surprised when I got my new work phone that his was the 2nd face put on there for authentication. I keep my passwords to my accounts open to him on a shared document and he is free to read here any time from my posts.

This is the minimum. good luck.

bh911,

Since you're still here and answering, and because I believe that no one is beyond redemption, I'm with DaddyDom. I'll keep trying as long as you're here.

Like you, I was hard wired for dishonesty from early childhood. IDK exactly what your childhood was like but I grew up in a very chaotic, unstable family due to my mom's mental illness. But we presented a VERY different picture to the outside world. My siblings and I learned that our perceptions were not to be trusted, and the truth must never be told--in home or out.

When I got sober, rigorous honesty was super hard. In fact I spent almost 10 years just half-assing the program, lying to everyone including myself. When I finally became willing to do ANYTHING to make my life better, it was probably at least 2 years before honesty as my default became anything close to comfortable. One thing that helped was the concept of a pause. From the AA Big Book:

"As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day 'Thy will be done. '"

Two things: First, I am not suggesting that you are or are not an alcoholic or addict. Your behavior suggests this might be part of your makeup, but you have to own this for yourself. Second, I don't know where you stand in regards to faith or lack thereof. So, "Thy Will be Done." may not work for you. But your life is clearly unmanageable as it is. And seeking a power greater than yourself to help you isn't the worst thing you could try. But try to incorporate this pause into your days. When your W asks you a question, don't just blurt out the thing you think will get you out of immediate trouble. Pause. Gather up every bit of decency and courage you can find, and then tell the truth. Tell. The. Truth. No matter how ugly you think it is. No matter how much trouble you think it will cause.

If you slip up and the lie comes out, correct it IMMEDIATELY. Say this: "That was a lie. I apologize. The truth is xxxxxx" Every time you do that, the sting of guilt/shame you feel will remind you that it is, in fact, easier, just to tell the truth. I don't know what I always thought was going to happen if I told the truth. I mean, I knew when I was a kid that my mom would likely lock herself in her room, suck all the air out of the atmosphere with her and there was a good chance she would kill herself in there and it would have been my fault. That's some heavy shit for a 7 or 8 year old. As an adult I finally learned I never had that responsibility and I sure as hell never had that power. I still remember the last time I had to retract a lie that I told. It was to a coworker and it was something silly and inconsequential. But I'd been working the program long enough to know that waiting would just make it worse. So I said, immediately, "That wasn't the truth and I don't even know why I said that. The truth is XXX." She looked at me like I'd grown a horn in the middle of my face and said, "Um, okay." And I bet if I asked her today if she remembered it she would not.

Last thing I'm gonna say is this: it's another AA thing. "Brain broke. First thought wrong." Dude, your brain is broke. Your best thinking is what has brought you to this place. Obviously you don't like it because you're here asking for help and you've (so far) stayed longer than you ever have before. Your first thought is always gonna be wrong. Second and third thoughts are probably not much better. And I am not judging there. Before I got sober, my behavior would very likely disgust most people here on SI. I was MESSED UP. But it is possible to change. You have to be willing to ask for help and then do the stuff that doesn't feel all that good.

And realize that the outcome is not your territory. You need to want to do this because you can't stand being who you are for one more minute. Regardless of your marriage. Or your job. Or anything else you think you can hold onto.

You need to want to do this because you can't stand being who you are for one more minute. Regardless of your marriage. Or your job. Or anything else you think you can hold onto.

Its the hardest step to articulate in this entire process. It is so deep and so person that you feel it on a plane of existence you cannot mistake for anything else. Its a profound feeling not many talk about because as much as I try there are hardly words for it. And its more than remorse. Remorse is a byproduct of that switch. The work doesn't get you to that feeling, its the feeling that leads you to the work.

So what does it take for each individual to reach that point? Again its so personal. And some never do, we all know people like that. There are people in our lives right now, still the same asshole they have always been as long as you've known them.

Its a shitty reality to find out that person is your spouse, and it's one that many BSs face.

Tell. The. Truth. No matter how ugly you think it is. No matter how much trouble you think it will cause.

Letting go of the outcome comes to mind when I think about telling the truth. When it's advised to let go, it's not just one big blanket you put down. You're face with several challenges, moments, thoughts that require pause and a change of action. You let go of what you think you know, and do something different.

Starting with the truth no matter how terrifying.. and believe I know how terrifying it is, one of the hardest most scariest things I did , it took a lot of courage. Trust me when I say admitting to more affairs was truly the last thing I wanted to do, having to go to my BH with a broken NC report was the last thing I wanted to do, talking about the sex I had with someone other than my spouse was shitty and I definitely didn't want to do that.

But! No one, BS/WS will escape this hell until we shine a light on our shit. It always starts with the truth.

I'll be honest OP as it stands you're really facing a lose/lose situation. You will not win this time with your lies and minimal effort. I don't know what you think will happen but I can see it clearly. You don't have the same spouse who's going to let this one get swept under the rug.

The outcome you keep fighting for no longer exists so you would do well to get it in your head that your M is OVER.  You're left with two options here.

1. Start at the bottom and rebuild.

2. Hold on to whatever you think is important and lose your M for good.

If you can tell me in what way your current set of beliefs and current actions are helping you in any way I would be shocked to know.

If you slip up and the lie comes out, correct it IMMEDIATELY. Say this: "That was a lie. I apologize. The truth is xxxxxx" Every time you do that, the sting of guilt/shame you feel will remind you that it is, in fact, easier, just to tell the truth.

THIS^^^

This was more or less the first "step" I took and still take, every day, and it is by far one of the most helpful things. You'll hear me say, "Replace broken messages with healthy ones" a lot, and this is what I mean by that.

Stopping lying, both to yourself and others, is paramount not only to who you are as a person but to your own happiness. Telling the truth actually feels really good, even when the truth is hard, because it just defuses everything, and there are no lies or secrets, or baggage to carry around. It is freeing, like having a ball and chain removed from your leg.

You may also find that telling the truth in the first place has two added benefits. One, people tend to get less angry in the first place (because we haven't added lying on top of whatever else happened) and they stop being angry faster. It's a win/win/win.

Look, we all come from shitty FOO's where learning to lie is what allowed us to survive in a hostile and toxic family life. So there is a good reason that we learned to lie! It was self-preservation... THEN. The problem we all seem to have is that those same skills have the opposite effect in a sane and emotionally healthy world. People who aren't fucked up don't want to be lied to and manipulated to and they recognize it easily.

So let me ask you about your living situation. Your wife's thread mentioned that she's asking for you to find elsewhere to stay, at least for now, correct?

I think she may have mentioned staying at the AP's. DO NOT DO THAT.

What are your other options? Do any of the guys (males) at work have a spare room?
It sounds as if you live in a rural area, is anyone there selling a beat-up camper you can tow to your farm?
If they don't have a camper do they have a room/barn/garage you can stay in? You can offer to help with groceries or buy beer.
A tent would be rough but it's an option.
Have you contacted local churches? Even if you're not religious, sometimes they can ask folks if they have a spare room and help a random stranger.
Are there shelters in the area that you could stay in?
Is the option of moving in with family a possibility?
There are some jobs that offer housing. For example, I worked as a chauffeur for a time and lived in the house.
Sometimes elderly people advertise for a person to help with things and will allow a person to live there.
Join the army?

BH911, is the crisis over again? Or have you given up?

What are you going to do for your BW?

Do you want to change for YOU? Or is this all a show?

Those little twinges of guilt is your vestigial conscience calling. It's time to listen to it.

This is a friendly reminder to make sure you do not bring information over from the OP’s BW thread.