SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh LurkingSoul, she's not 'polyamorous' per se; she just likes pursuing other guys after about roughly a year-year and a half into any given relationship!

I don't think she has told him that she is polyamorous. He is fucked. I believe we will have a new member with new thread in JFO very soon.

Funnily enough, I raised this with her when I was giving her both barrels. She claims 'she isn't', but that she has been 'brutally honest with him' and that he 'understands her outlook.' Yeah mate, it's one thing to pretend to understand an outlook when you are trying to get into her pants, it's another thing when you are attached emotionally and she's hiding her phone from you in bed. Caveat emptor.

It's just so dang weird isn't it? They lie so much, not just the big lies but it can be little lies, anything at all, but they have told so many that they can't or won't tell the truth anymore?

Right? I'll share with you but one. Noting I was on three times her income, her only bill was to pay childcare. I paid the mortgage and everything else. About a week after we separated, she informed me that we owed the childcare company $5K. When I questioned why the bill hadn't been paid, she claimed she hadn't been invoiced. Total horseshit of course, she was banking 2 months worth of pays knowing D was coming down the line as I found out what she was up to.

When I questioned where all her pays were, she actually had the temerity to claim that 'we had discussed this, and that noting we were getting divorced, you were happy for me to set money aside.' The timeline she was claiming I had agreed to this bullshit was BEFORE our overseas trip, and before I even had an inkling she had had a workplace affair.

Jesus wept.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 2:50 PM, Saturday, December 10th]

Your WW is a gem. One thing I’ll note is that I understand the world of the military. I’ve come across many female service members, both married snd single.

My personal observation is that over 90 percent of the married female service members were cheating on their husbands. The number is very high the opposite way as well, but not even close to the female cheating.

This is not an indictment against the female gender or females serving in the military. It’s simply a personal observation.

Thank god she is moving out of your life! Just shows you her true self.
One day at a time

Hi OP, I'm new here - no current problem myself, thank God, but I've been through the PA, EA, online affairs, dating apps, etc with different partners so I have an interest in the subject. I saw your sad story and wanted to make some comments.

Don't mean to hurt you but I think you really opened up this kettle of fish with your own open marriage/swinging stuff. You really did. You even put up the profiles she's using, as I understand it. I see that you try to make a distinction between that and what your wife is proposing but it's a distinction without a difference.

Please don't ever do this again, whether you stay with this woman (and I would highly recommend you don't as she's not going to be faithful to you ever....let's not delude ourselves - 2 years away on service? Nah), or go with someone else. Polyamory, swinging, open marriage - all this baloney - does not work unless you are both like this from the start. The very beginning. You HAVE to be compatible in how you view sexual issues and fidelity and you have to be in ABSOLUTE agreement from the start. I don't even think it works then because I never seen any longevity in these relationships and they always either end, sometimes really badly or they close up the relationship.......because it DOES NOT WORK.

Why doesn't it work? Exactly for the reasons you are now seeing. When you bring any other person into your marriage, whether agreed upon or not.....the boundaries for your relationship and sex in particular DISSOLVE. The just end. There are no boundaries anymore. What really happens when you do these polysex things is you open up your marriage to broken rules (no one ever keeps the "rules" as soon as sex is involved), jealousy, resentment (is he or she doing better than I am?), STDs/STIs, possible pregnancies, crazy people (those bunny boilers who actually DO exist) and all other kinds of unpredictable drama. DON'T EVER OPEN UP YOUR MARRIAGE OR SUGGEST IT TO YOUR SPOUSE unless you are prepared for all of this and more. Because this - what you are going through right now - is exactly what happens when you do. It's one of the outcomes. She probably was already seeing someone (usually anyone who proposes open marriage IS already seeing someone or wants to)and saw your conversations as a big Green Light. As would most people, frankly. I don't know what you expected to have happen. That you would both happily have other people in your bed and that it would never evolve into "cheating". That's not realistic. What you have now, IS what happens when you consider or implement these ideas. They dont' work and they are almost always destructive to marriage. Please learn from this. You CAN'T set any rules other than monogamy on a serious committed relationship - and even monogamy is hard to achieve. Also, when you open up your marriage to other people - you may think there will be no emotions involved....but that's not what happens. Inevitably - unless you only see those people ONCE....you're going to start feeling something because we are supposed to feel something when we have sex. It's NOT supposed to be a sport or recreation. It's supposed to be an expression of love, affection and trust. Otherwise you might as well use a dildo. When you have multiple partners....that is energy you should be putting only into your marriage that is going elsewhere. People have to stop this crap.

I wanted to point this out because so many people are making this mistake now with polyamory and swinging and all this crap and it just devastates marriages. I'm amazed anyone would consider this especially when you have children.

As to where you are now.....your marriage is over. You're not enough for her. Maybe she wasn't enough for you. Why would you want other people in your marriage - you were actually revealing that neither of you is enough for the other, or maybe you hoped you could curb her cheating. Well.....you can't. And she's gonna go off for those 2 years and she's gonna see whoever she wants and there is nothing you can do about it.

I would say, get a divorce, go your separate ways, she's never going to be faithful, and try to learn from this about what YOU personally want from a marriage/relationship and start with that as your basic relationship plan. My experiences have taught me not to waste time with a person who doesn't really value you or who wants other people too. It's just endless heart ache and delaying the inevitable. Bite the bullet and get the divorce. Maybe in a few years you might come back together but....not now.

BondJaneBond

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you didn’t bother to read the whole thread.

It also occurs to me, OP, that if my husband suggested such a thing to me, my reaction....providing I wasn't already cheating anyway.....would be to think that....gee, I'm not enough for him. He wants somebody else. He doesn't value me, he doesn't value monogamy anyway. I have to wonder if that was a factor in her thinking. I know it would be in mine. I really would encourage you to rethink your whole transaction here because I don't think this was the controlled experience that you envisioned. It usually isn't.

"BondJaneBond

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you didn’t bother to read the whole thread."

I actually did read pretty much all of it. What do you think I missed?

OP has moved out of infidelity by divorcing his WW.

OP has moved out of infidelity by divorcing his WW.

You're right then, I DID miss that. I'm glad to hear he did it.

My points about swinging and open marriage stand though, and I really wanted to make those points, not just for this marriage but for any future one he gets involved with. Or any body else reading. This is such a destructive thing to do, and I have never seen it work for any real length of time. It always end up either closed again or breaks up the marriage. I do wish people would avoid this and either be polygamous RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING with that understanding on both sides, or monogamous with the same view. There really isn't anything workable in between.

BondJaneBond: You are spot on on your assessment of poly life style. I do believe poly relations can work if certain conditions are met. Common problem we see in any poly relation is disagreement on presence of rules. One partner believes their should be rules and other says otherwise. Reason is simple, rules are perceived to be in favor of a spouse whose partner sleeps around. So the partner who sleeps around whose sexual urges keeps on increasing as they go deep in to this lifestyle eventually finds these rules very annoying and unnecessary. They are seen as obstacles in their pursuit of ultimate pleasure. They see these rules as tools used by their partners to control their boundaries, behavior and reach. And the other partner see freedom as an attempt to undermine the primacy of their martial relation. They fear and rightfully so, that freedom will kill their marriage. For them rules are set to preserve the primacy of marriage in this new lifestyle and prevent the death of marriage. Rules are also meant to signify to all Aps that they are the primary partners. But because of obvious misinterpretation and misperception of importance of rules and freedom such lifestyle doesn't work for long time. The only way, as i see, for poly relations to work is when rules are established by the partner-who-sleeps-around themselves and other partner should find them agreeable. They can go back and forth on what rule is agreeable and what not. But as long as rules are set by sleep around partner and are agreed upon by the other partner this lifestyle might just work.

BondJaneBond, the problem wasn't 'opening the marriage up to polyamory', by the stage she suggested that (which I was NOT onboard with), she had already been dating AP for over a year. There are plenty of couples who engage in swinging etc who have healthy boundaries; it's a bit of a stretch to say that EVERY relationship is doomed. Horses for courses. In saying that, I never engaged in any of that - in retrospect it was all cover to mask her already existing infidelity.

In light of my previous post, I thought it would be worthwhile to give an update.

It has been about 6 months since D-Day(2) and the inevitable end of the marriage. It has been hell, I'm not going to lie, and I have been in some very dark places over the last few months. But in saying that, I am doing really well at the moment, and I have reached a point where I am ambivalent at best and I pity her at worst.

I am currently in the early days of dating a fantastic younger woman who completely understands the current dynamic and what has transpired. She confessed that she wanted to reach out for a while but felt it was 'respectful' (and I will underline that word) to wait until enough time had pased where I wouldn't be a trainwreck of emotions, and would be able to go into a healthy relationship. She is a professional in her field, and she is absolutely stunning. There has been a number of times we are out and people have stopped her to compliment her on her appearance/attire. She's just an all round great catch.

We raised the elephant in the room of when a suitable time would be to introduce her to my children and we both decided that we should wait until the 'honeymoon' phase is over to see if the relationship was going to be serious, as it was only fair to my young daughters that they are not dealt with more confusion noting they are still dealing with the ramifications and disruption of the divorce 6 months on.

This is where things take a turn in regards to my ex-WW. Remember how I mentioned that she was on a year-long academic military course all last year? Well it turns out that she is now dating a much older coursemate (he's 51, she's 38) who just so happened to be the guy who was oh-so-chivalrously helping her assemble furniture in her new place mere weeks after I kicked her out. I have also since found out that they have been dating for MONTHS (the timeline I have been told by military friends is that it started about 3 weeks after she moved out). Bear in mind that this guy isn't the AP, he's someone else entirely. I asked her about this as this guy was imposing himself on my 3 girls from the get-go, and was buying them hot chocolates and taking them to the park mere weeks after we separated. I was told 'he is just a friend who lives around the corner and that I didn't have to worry about him as a romantic partner being introduced to the girls.' A few weeks ago after I informed ex-WW that I was now starting to see one, she confessed that she had 'also just started seeing' her course-mate in a romantic sense. Colour me surprised. Weeirdly, she also told me that she had 'had a good stalk on socials to see who my new g/f was' which made me very uncomfortable. I couldn't even pick her new victim out of a line up, such is my barren field of care in regards to him. Regardless, I told her that the girls were not to be introduced to our partners until things were serious/they had time to adjust, and suggested that 6 months might be a workable timeline. She agreed.

I went to drop around one of my twins shoes on the weekend (it's her week with the kids) and as I was giving them a hug, one of the girls exclaims, 'we met Mummy's friend xxxx new doggy!' I stared at my wife, told the kids to go inside, and I quietly got in the car and told her that I was done with her absolutely selfish behaviour and lies, and screamed off up the street seething.

I rang her later and told her that her behaviour was unacceptable; she could hurt me all she likes, but I wasn't going to stand for her heaping sorrow and confusion on the girls. See also denied that the relationship had been going on for 5 months. I have evidence to suggest that isn't the case at all noting my military cohort were all her instructors on her course, and that info makes its way around accordingly. Either she felt comfortable introducing him to the kids based on the fact they had been dating for a LONG time, or she's completely selfish. She didn't like that suggestion one bit.

An interesting aside though, as I was tearing shreds off her verbally, she said 'you think of me as some unfeeling evil mastermind!!' and I posited that the type of person who could date an affair partner for a year and a half while wanting to 'fix' the marriage she was actively ruining, while at the same time telling/projecting to all of her friends what an A-grade failure of a husabnd I was (hot hint: I wasn't) to justify behaviour; is exactly that TYPE OF EVIL PERSON. I told her that I was sick of taking repeated trickle-truth hits, and that to find that I was replaced merely three weeks after a catastrophic separation was heart-breaking. As my therapist said, 'a person who can happily do this is a sociopath.' I told her this. I also posited that the type of male who would move in on someone (and that's exactly what he was doing, males know the game he was playing) is not a good role model as a partner, or a potential step-parent. She broke down in tears and claimed that 'it wasn't about replacing me'...it just furthers the theory that she, and all cheaters like her, CANNOT live without validation from the gender they are attracted to.

I told her I didn't care what she did, who she saw, or how she ruined her life; but I needed to protect my children from what would likely be an unending carousel of new males in her life. Cue more ugly tears and sobbing from her. She concurred. She also told me that in the last few weeks, 'noting she wasn't having to concentrate on 'getting through course anymore', she had finally started emotionally processing the divorce' and that 'she wasn't doing well emotionally as she realised what she had ruined, and how much she had hurt me for which no sorry would ever be enough.' I told her that her remorse was 5 months too late, and that she was right; no sorry would be enough because it was no longer expected or relevant. She admitted that her doctor has had to up her medication accordingly.

A few days prior, I had told her from a co-parenting POV that I would be in Fiji with my other half in March on the week she had the kids for emergency contact purposes. I'm starting to wonder if this has set her off. Not that I care, but perhaps she is FINALLY realising that I wasn't the person she told her friends I was (and she knows it), and that she has finally lost me....lost me to someone who is her better in nearly every category. I am not going to take pleasure in that, but it goes to show how truly deluded cheaters are.

She had a 90% excellent marriage and she lost everything seeking the extra 10%. As my therapist so well put it, 'from what I observed during your early combined counselling, your marriage had one leaky tap. She invited arsonists in to fix it, and is now wondering why the house burned down.'

There has been no time for introspection for her, no time to review her poor decision making and behaviour; it was just a matter of limerance and dating soneone else nearly straight away. To quote a John Mayer song, "it shouldn't matter but it does."

So true. Oh well, something to mull over in Fiji over a cocktail?! *chortle*

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 8:57 AM, Tuesday, January 17th]

Real good to read your update Hurthalo. Had a good chuckle too. Great progress forward.

Sir, you need to maintain minimum contact with her as much as possible. Your conversation with her should always be restricted to things related to your children only. Her dating life should not be your concern. It won't do you any good. You should stop asking about her from her work colleagues and your friends. I understand you want to see her facing negative consequences of her actions but I don't think it will help you in your 'healing' process. So stop this as soon as possible. Stop giving her rent free space in your mind. Stop letting her making you feel 'emotional trainwreck'. Your goal should only be INDIFFERENCE. Your concern regarding her Ap meeting your daughters is a reasonable one but that emotional outburst you had with her only signals that you are far away from INDIFFERENCE. You should also stop comparing your current gf with your ex. I feel like you want or expect your ex to feel jealous of your present gf. I feel you want your ex to feel the lose of the prize, which is YOU, to somebody who is better than her. This kind of expectations or desires or whatever is not healthy for your healing process. There is a possibility that she might not face any consequences. Possibility that she might not be remorseful at all. Possibility that she may have never believed her marriage with you was 90% good. Possibility that she may still think your are A grade failure. Possibility that she might find a partner who is better than you in every way. Possibility that she could finally have a partner she could be faithful to. Am not trying to beat you down. And I do believe you are anything but failure. I only want to highlight that these possibilities exists and they shouldn't break you. Shouldn't prevent you from healing. That is why INDIFFERENCE is recommended. INDIFFERENCE will not negate such possibilities but will reduce the impact of such possibilities on you. INDIFFERENCE is not only about how you feel about her, or how she makes you feel, it's also about how you feel about yourself with regard to her or her Ap. Enjoy Italy trip. This trip should only be about bonding with your gf. Enjoy!

Hurthalo

Like it or not the legal (and social) side of custody is that both parents have been deemed fit to be parents. If there are any doubts then some guidelines might be implemented, such as supervised visitation or whatever. That’s not the case in your instance: you both have custody and an arrangement for when it’s her time and when it’s yours.
Of course it makes great parenting sense to have a joint vison of how you want the parenting to go. It makes sense to show kids good behavior, good morals and so on. But… I doubt there is anything you can do to prevent her from allowing "her friend Fred" from showing your kids his dog or having him over when the twins are there or whatever as long as their behavior towards the children is acceptable.
This is one reason courts seldom want "moral clauses" in custody agreements. They are SO HARD to implement and there is so little that can be done if they are broken. Like you would need to show that meeting a man’s dog was bad for the kids, or that their mom and the man had shown some inappropriate behavior or the man in some way have done something that was detrimental for the children. Even that would have to be very over-the-top. After all – you two are divorced, it’s been half a year and it’s just part of life that you both move on. So even if mom and "friend" had cuddled on the couch while watching TV with the twins… chances are that a judge or CPS would NOT see that in a negative way per se.
Might be different if it was Fred today, John yesterday and Sam the week before. Or if they were groping each other, making out or having loud group-sex with the Australian Association of Swingers or snorting coke or whatever, but "normal" behavior around the kids… OK.
Your wife having a relationship with someone else – be it as friends, boyfriend – is not something you can control.

Of course – as a father – you want to keep in mind the sad statistical fact that the boyfriends of single-mothers are one of the biggest group of sexual molesters, but that does NOT equate to ALL boyfriends being molesters. It’s just something you – as a father – should be keeping an eye open for. Just like you should be keeping an eye open for any adult that has access to your kids, be it a teacher, coach, uncle or whatever.

It’s precisely because you cant control it that you shouldn’t make an issue of it. At least not in such a confrontational and unproductive way
By all means be angry and seethe about it – but don’t make it clear to your wife. If there is a known expectation of care regarding introducing to new partners then maybe remind her about it, but you do not have the right nor should you have the expectation of her being moral, after the experience you have of her as a "wife".

A big part of recovery is detachment, and detachment means minimizing her ability to impact your life.

Be the best father you can be, interact with your kids in the moral way YOU want, but if your wife thinks it’s time for the twins to meet her beau… that’s outside your reach IMHO.

While I completely agree with you that you should both refrain from exposing your children to a revolving door of partners and exercise caution when it comes to involving new partners in your kids' lives, the reality is that neither one of you has any right or ability to micromanage each other's romantic relationships or parenting. Legally, you can only attempt enforce things that are in you custody agreement, so don't waste or your time and energy.

Berating your ex-wife, even if it's on the phone and not directly in your children's presence, is counterproductive; it isn't going to change how she behaves or parents. Most importantly, you don't want to put your children in a position where they feel compelled to keep secrets from you or become hesitant to tell you things because they're afraid of getting their mother in trouble or making you upset/angry. As emotionally challenging and unfair as it is, the best way to protect your kids is to keep your cool and maintain cordiality with your ex at all times. This way, your kids (and your ex, to whatever limited degree is possible) are more likely to be open and honest with you about who they're seeing and what they're doing when they're outside your care.

Also, as Lurkingsoul12 said, your goal in future interactions with your ex is to convey no other emotion with regard to her except indifference. For the time being, you will need to "fake it til you make it," but indifference may be easier to achieve if you always keep in mind that your ex subsists on being the center of attention and provoking strong emotional reactions from men. Case in point: You said, "And that to find that I was replaced merely three weeks after a catastrophic separation was heart-breaking;" she heard, "I still love you and I'm so hung up on you that the mere mention of this man's name is enough to make me crumble to pieces!" You might think your scathing comments during that phone call crushed her ego, but in reality, you gave it a hefty dose of speed.

As for your new relationship, I'm really concerned that you're moving too fast because you're clearly still bleeding out from your divorce and emotionally enmeshed in your ex-wife. While I don't fault you for deriving pleasure from the fact that your young, model-grade girlfriend makes your ex jealous, I think you should honestly assess whether you're in the relationship for the right reasons. Are you really ready for a serious relationship or are you in it because you miss being in a relationship and need to valued and desired again? Is your girlfriend really the right person for you (in terms of compatibility, shared values, etc) or does she seem perfect because (outwardly, at least) she's a step up from your ex-wife? Do you have a deep, potentially enduring personal connection with your girlfriend or are you simply infatuated with her?

One thing you need to be careful about with post-divorce dating is to make sure that you're judging a new partner according to their own merits rather than as a reaction to your ex. For example, when I was newly separated, one of the first guys I dated was a really handsome man who was insanely romantic, would call and text day and night, and wanted to see me all the time. This was so invigorating and intoxicating after spending the last few years being coldly neglected by my unfaithful ex. Also, my ex was with OW#2, so the idea of being alone while he embarked on a full-fledged relationship with OW#2 was simply intolerable.

Long story short, the new guy turned out to be a jealous psycho, so I now had to recover from both a messy break up and the end of my marriage! In retrospect, I would've caught a lot more red flags early on and ended the relationship sooner if I had waited to date until I was completely emotionally detached from my ex and was further along in my healing process. Please avoid making the same the mistake.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:33 PM, Tuesday, January 17th]

Good post brother. Remember the children are always the most innocent of the infidelity yet suffer the most. Glad there is one mature adult that is not self centred. And it isn’t the exWW. Glad you have an upgrade to a younger, successful better model and wish nothing more than smooth seas in this new relationship. Remember to just better yourself, that will piss off your Ex more.

Have a good time in Fiji and bula

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 9:44 AM, Friday, January 20th]

Have a great time in Fiji! I'm so glad you are able to move on to a healthier relationship.

As for the other posts in here recently with bad info about polyamory and open marriages... my only suggestion would be to realize that not everyone is the same. Not every relationship is the same. And that's part of the beauty of life.

I could say oh man you should never be in a monogamous relationship. How could you possibly commit to only having sex with one person forever? There's no way you won't have a wandering eye at some point and it's healthy and normal to develop feelings for others!

But ultimately what it comes down to is needs, wants, and mutual enthusiastic consent. If you want a monogamous relationship? That's awesome. Find another monogamous person that you are compatible with. If you want an open relationship? Find someone who has similar views. Likewise if you want a polyamorous relationship; don't date someone who wants monogamy or sex only relationships.

It's not the relationship model that's failing; it's the people involved.

You know, Halo.. it really sounds to me like you're doing pretty well, all things considered. My best advice to you right now would be "keep it light". That will minimize the ego kibbles to the ex and it will slow things down enough so you can do a really good evaluation of the new girlfriend. Best of all, it will let you concentrate on fun and good things.

Good update!

G'day everyone! I actually thought I'd penned a reply to this a week or two ago, but realised that my extensive message didn't actually post! Ouch!

I have been in London for work, so that was a nice change of pace for a week or so. I have been in a much better headspace over the last month or so, and I 'think' I'm finally in the zone where I am starting to feel the pang on indifference to my exWW. My new g/f has been very understanding, and it is truly a delight having someone be in your corner - she loves my hobbies (or at least understands them haha) and is looking forward to coming and watching me play hockey when my season starts in a few weeks. When I compare that to the eggshells I had to walk around with my ex because everything not related to work (aka me taking the kids skiing for a day, or paying my yearly hockey fees) was a 'waste of time and money'...I've truly dodged a bullet.

I read [no soliciting] on the plane and geez, what an amazing (and equally amusing!) read. The biog takeaway is that serial cheaters like my WW thrive on a constant source of attention, and now that I've stopped giving it out and basicall ynot caring about her going forward, I've noted her mask of 'dealing with this' has slipped. She isn't dealing with it at all. Strange that it has taken her 7 months to get there; but so be it. I no longer care.

LurkingSoul and BluerthenBlue: Indifference is the key. She asked me if my other half was coming to Fiji and I told her it wasn't any of her concern, and that the pertinent info was that I would be away that week (it was her week with the kids anyway) for emergency purposes. I don't think she liked that.

Bigger: I've all but given up on the battle regarding the new guy in her life. I'm stil seething that she moved on 3 weeks after I kicked her out of the house, but that's her problem - and it certianly only reinforces her pattern of indulgent and self-destructive behaviour. You'll laugh, she actually said to me a few weeks ago that 'xxxx would really like to meet you as he says you probably 'want to suss him out' I told her that I had no reason to 'suss him out', I couldn't pick him out of a line up, and that I had zero time or respect for a parasite who started sniffing over the corpse of a marriage that was still warm.'

Chamomile: Spot on! I am in no rush for her to meet the kids, and I want to get this right. I was actually petrified that one of the second-order effects of this betrayal on my mental state and abaility to be in a relationship going forward would be me potentially being unable to trust that I wasn't being cheated on at any given time - I am happy to say that that feeling hasn't eventuated. It is really nice to trust someone without question again. I didn't realise how much of m y marriage was spent in a defeatist state of 'well, she'll probably do it again' after she cheated on me after 9 months of marriage the first time around.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:13 AM, Sunday, February 5th]