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But I also do recognize how much she is suffering, how much she hates herself. I can tell some days she is having a bad health day, but she doesn't want to leave me to go lay down. And even when she's completely wipes out she feels like she needs to do things around the house I would have done previously because I might not be up to it. And when I wake up at 4am (something that never happened to me before, but has happened every day since Dday) she wants to wake up with me to keep me company. So I see what you all mean about her punishment being what she did to the marriage, etc. Especially with her infidelity experience in her previous marriage, she does understand what she did and what she risked. And I will try to remember that when I have thoughts about injustice.

That dialectic, that's part of what is referred to as the shit sandwich. It puts the BS between a rock and a hard place:

Your WW's affair was probably catalyzed by a desire to get out from under the weight of her private sense of self loathing or lack of self worth. Now that the A is discovered, these feelings are even worse and the weight of it is even heavier.

As a husband, your instinct is to carry some of that weight if you can. To solve problems for your wife.

But at the same time, she cheated on you, meaning that this specific weight is toxic to you. It is said so many times: don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

There's no right answer. It's unique and personal to each BH. I wish you luck.

That time line is too clean. There had to be My husband doesn’t love me. My husband rather play golf then with me. He did X. He did Y.
She was looking for her Mr perfect.
Affair are dirty. If she was that deep in the fog. It would be hard to stop. She knows that PIV intercourse is a game changer for you. You may forgive a BJ. But full bareback intercourse is a game changer.

Do you view this as helpful in any way?

I have said multiple times I'm not just taking her word on everything. I'm still investigating and working through it. But wild speculation on worst case scenarios doesn't seem constructive. I am aware of the worst case scenarios and have been over them all a trillion times and living with them every minute of every day. That doesn't mean they are reality. It doesn't mean her version is the whole reality either.

I do know she did not badmouth me and has never done anything of that nature to anyone before or after this. Believe me, she is not shy to criticize, morally judge people, etc and has shown herself to be a huge hypocrite. But when it comes to how she talks about me to others, even the guy she cheated with, she never blamed me. The content of the messages were more along the lines of "We are both in happy relationships, why are we doing this?", and all her search history was things like cheating in a happy marriage, cheating even though you love your husband, etc a million similar articles. Honestly, before the cheating, she always felt like SHE was the one not contributing enough in the relationship because of her illness, not me. I'm not saying I was a perfect husband and clearly her love and devotion was not enough to stop her from straying at first opportunity.

None of that makes it better, and none of that stopped her from cheating, lying, and betraying. In a way it almost makes it WORSE to me, because it makes even less sense than if she was dissatisfied with me. But she wasn't and isn't. Our home life, sex life, parenting, careers, financial situation, friendship - all of it was not just good, but great before 8/4/22. I do believe her illness, confidence level, and feeling of being useless and unattractive were are the absolute lowest they have ever been, at the EXACT moment this guy happened to come along. Maybe he's a predator who recognized a vulnerable target, maybe she went looking for the ego boost to pull herself out of a rut. I am still working out the "whys" but I do know it's not because I golfed too much.

Your WW's affair was probably catalyzed by a desire to get out from under the weight of her private sense of self loathing or lack of self worth. Now that the A is discovered, these feelings are even worse and the weight of it is even heavier.

As a husband, your instinct is to carry some of that weight if you can. To solve problems for your wife.

But at the same time, she cheated on you, meaning that this specific weight is toxic to you. It is said so many times: don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

Well this hits home!

In a way it almost makes it WORSE to me, because it makes even less sense than if she was dissatisfied with me.

Oh, brother! This may be the first time in over seven years that I've ever read from a betrayed spouse that a lack of blame-shifting almost makes it worse. My ex-wife was a raging volcano of blame-shifting. To be honest, she had a lot to be angry about. I wasn't the greatest husband in the world. One night in particular I just sat in a chair, listening to her rant and rave about everything I've ever done wrong, why I was to blame for our marriage falling apart, and while I felt smaller and smaller and smaller, I kept wondering to myself who the hell was this monster speaking to me.

It wasn't just painful. At times it enraged me. At times it nearly broke me. On the whole, it only pushed me further away to the point at which, barely two months after d-day, I was calling lawyers and giving divorce serious consideration.

Trust me when I say that blame-shifting is worse. Either way, no matter how desperately a wayward spouse tries to justify infidelity, there is no justification for infidelity.

ETA:

As a husband, your instinct is to carry some of that weight if you can. To solve problems for your wife.

I agree. It's part of your "job" as a spouse to help your spouse do.. whatever... so long as it's all healthy and reasonable. When it comes to addressing personal issues, however, there's not much a spouse can do. We're all responsible for our own shit, all of which is as inescapable as death and taxes.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:58 PM, Thursday, September 1st]

Oh, brother! This may be the first time in over seven years that I've ever read from a betrayed spouse that a lack of blame-shifting almost makes it worse. My ex-wife was a raging volcano of blame-shifting. To be honest, she had a lot to be angry about. I wasn't the greatest husband in the world. One night in particular I just sat in a chair, listening to her rant and rave about everything I've ever done wrong, why I was to blame for our marriage falling apart, and while I felt smaller and smaller and smaller, I kept wondering to myself who the hell was this monster speaking to me.

It wasn't just painful. At times it enraged me. At times it nearly broke me. On the whole, it only pushed me further away to the point at which, barely two months after d-day, I was calling lawyers and giving divorce serious consideration.

Trust me when I say that blame-shifting is worse. Either way, no matter how desperately a wayward spouse tries to justify infidelity, there is no justification for infidelity.

I completely understand, and I apologize for saying that. All I mean is that for me personally, if I thought something was legitimately wrong with my marriage that contributed to this then maybe it would start to make a little more sense to me. I did not mean to downplay how fucked up and painful it would be to be not only betrayed, but blamed when you were given no choice in the matter.

if I thought something was legitimately wrong with my marriage that contributed to this then maybe it would start to make a little more sense to me.

All BS who thought they were happily married feel this way. Because,if they can point to an issue with themselves, or the marriage,then they can fix that,and affair proof their marriage.

The truth is, she cheated because something is wrong with HER.

What work is she doing on herself, to become a safe person?

My husband never blamed me,or our marriage. He couldn't. I was a fantastic wife. He would tell you that as well. Our marriage was fine. He chose to cheat because he was selfish,and thought he wouldn't get caught. Sometimes,it's that simple. Not every cheater cheats because of some childhood issue,or whatever.

She may have been feeling a bit more vulnerable because of her MS. But MS didn't make her cheat. She chose to do it.

and all her search history was things like cheating in a happy marriage, cheating even though you love your husband, etc a million similar articles.

Were these searches pre\post August 19th?

Were these searches pre\post August 19th?

Post

From your earlier posts ...

Of course, I didn't have the full story. The making out on Friday did progress to the point she started oral sex (her on him, but not vice versa). Then she allegedly stopped before it finished, had a breakdown and told him to leave.

The trickle is real. While this is the first time we spoke about the details, she also clearly told me in her original confession that progressing further meant "inappropriate hands"

The BJ stopped because that was the line that was crossed where reality finally set in. She started, compared it to having cold water dumped on her head, felt like she woke up, and said they were not having sex and it went too far. He didnt argue or try to force it. He didn't say he had to finish. I would not remotely consider believing this from anyone else, but with her and the way she is, her overthinking and panicking is not out of the realm of possibility. That combined with her searches about what the difference between 2nd and 3rd base are and other things like that have me leaning towards belief.

She insists and remains absolutely convinced that she would not have ever considered intercourse.
After a few seconds she stops, has a breakdown, says what are we doing, we can't do this. He does not pressure or anything, just apologizes and leaves while she is shaking on the floor.

You NEED to be operating with the reality that if there wasn't PIV then the BJ (or some other consulation finale) was completed. The progression of the trickle truth should drive that home for you. I don't see where you indicated how long he was in your home alone with her on the 19th, or how old he was. He was following a pick up artist/players handbook and there is no way he turned into Mr No Pressure when he was locked and loaded after a week long build up. He likely would have taken only seconds, not even minutes, to reach orgasm, especially if he's a young guy. I suggest you bluff her and say "Have you left anything out, I heard from the POS girlfriend that he admitted to having an orgasm with you"

Her searches afterward only show how naive she is and how she was desperately trying to minimize her indiscretion in her own mind.

I am not pushing this narrative to be hurtful, I am trying to help you get the remaining inconsistencies out in the open.

Shirley Glass (NOT "Just Friends") wrote that As happen in good Ms because the WS lack effective boundaries. So: yes, As occur in good Ms.

You NEED to be operating with the reality that if there wasn't PIV then the BJ (or some other consulation finale) was completed.

I don't understand this. I'd feel betrayed even by an emotional A; a physical aspect isn't necessary. My W engaged in sexual activity without release, and I can't imagine how I could have hurt more if she had, in fact, experienced orgasms with her ap. But that applies only to me and only in this case.

For sure, orgasm could be the line between D & R, but it's up to the individual to draw their own lines. At least one woman has posted that oral sex is more intimate to her than PIV. That's her line that she won't cross.

In general, it's said, that women are more disturbed by the love aspect of As, and men are more concerned about the sex. But there are plenty of women here for whom the sexual infidelity was worse than the emotional and plenty of men for whom the emotional infidelity was worse than the sex.

It doesn't help for one person to assume that that others are the same as he may be. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in anyone's philosophy.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:17 PM, Thursday, September 1st]

We live in a society where if a woman says "no" at ANY point in the proceedings, the interaction is rape. So no, it's NOT unbelievable that the guy would have stopped if the WW said to stop. And as I mentioned earlier, a hard dick is not necessarily the irresistible force one might think. I'm not saying that the WW is telling the truth, but no one here is in a position to say definitively that she is not.

There's no way around it, at some point we all have to choose what we're going to believe. Even if you were to get a polygraph, doubt would linger as to whether or not she'd beaten it.

Early on after dday and for months afterward, we tend not to trust our own judgment. After all, we got fooled, right? We thought we knew this person and what they were capable of, and it turns out we didn't know as much as we thought we did. But here's what I've learned in hindsight... that even though I might not always be right, I really did have the tools to deal with the consequences if I ended up being wrong. I had survived something that I thought might end me, it was soooo emotionally painful. But I got through it, and what's more, I had become stronger in the process. The weakness and insecurity that I was sure I couldn't overcome had slipped away unnoticed. I just realized one day that I was strong, that no matter what happened in my marriage, I was going to be just fine.

Anyway, I think it's probably still too early to make a definitive judgement about whether you've had the whole truth or not. It feels really uncomfortable, I know, to be somewhere in between. But your gut is still there, and when you're ready, you will decide what you believe.

You're going to be okay.

So no, it's NOT unbelievable that the guy would have stopped if the WW said to stop.

FWIW, I had a highly promiscuous period after getting dumped by my WW, who left me for her AP. Lots of casual sex, overlapping sex, etc. There was more than one occasion with a new hook-up that was tentative, where the partner asked/told me to stop mid-stroke, so I stopped. Period. End of discussion. It does happen in real life.

The reason people question it in this context is that affair sex tends in general to be more fervid, and also because scumbags like the asshole who tried hooking up with your wife may be less likely to have enough respect for a woman to stop when asked to stop. But that sort of analysis commentary is both generalization and surmise. I agree that it is wholly plausible that the sex act stopped shortly after it started.

My point is that the AP was not a good guy, at all. And his end game with OP's wife was an orgasm. It is all he wanted. Everything else, all that fishing, affirming correspondence, was him setting the stage to accomplish that. Anything more memorable would have been the icing. She was going to be nothing more than a notch in his belt.

I only chimed in because OP's wife reminded me of my own, who in multiple instances where her actions did not match her "character" could only boil it down to "He asked and I was willing". There are many women still who do not feel empowered to say no when they have lead someone on (and maybe the AP begs and pleads) and OP's wife seems like she may very well fit that mold.

I don't remember seeing that she had been tested for STDs. IMO an STD test is an absolute non-negotiable requirement. I think OP mentioned hyper-bonding.

I just read this in a psychology blog. It was studies around the reasons and differences of men who cheat and women who cheat. Men can often leave any emotion out of it completely, it’s a transaction to them. They can pay a prostitute or find somebody at a bar and go to bed with them for a little while but whatever it is they don’t always remember that persons name. Women on the other hand, from a biological necessity, have to make some emotional choices because they can get pregnant. It pays for her to choose wisely. If she stepped over the boundary and had an affair she’s usually formed some attachment to the person. Neither one of these generalizations hold true 100% of the time. There are women who go out looking and they don’t care about anything except the fun and the excitement they get. Men often have such a strong attachment to their wives that they don’t want to cheat even if they feel the desire. So the bs has to look at what was driving the cheating. Was it someone who is not capable of maintaining monogamy or is it someone who’s fallen in love. There are many variations on those two and you have to decide as a BS how to manage it. What drove them to do it. Reading on SI is eye opening because every cheating story is the same except different.
Bs who come here want the pain to stop and they want a do-over. When some old timers, who know what is coming, try to give some guidance the bs is often angry. They don’t want to hear the painful truth. They are already mired in grief and despair. All any of the very articulate people who respond to you can do is keep trying to help. You will get where you need to go. Give yourself time.

When some old timers, who know what is coming, try to give some guidance the bs is often angry.

This has not happened. At all.

I only responded negatively to one post. And even then I wasn't angry, I was pointing out that he wasn't even making an effort to help. Did you happen to read that post? He clearly had not even read the thread. I can see why this site would be home of some very bitter people. I am here for everyone's experience and knowledge, and it has been IMMENSELY helpful.

But i'm not going to listen to people tell me what DEFINITELY happened with absolute certainty. I'm going to gather evidence and believe what THAT tells me.

Many years ago when I was posting my story on a site similar to this one, I found down the road, the responses that were actually the most helpful were many I had strongly disagreed with.

BS often run a pro-wayward narrative. Oh I know this person, it's out of character, and so on.

We want to believe they are being honest because we still view them as someone who hold our best interest.

This is false. I dont know how far your wife went, I wasn't there. However, as most here can tell you, WS minimize thier actions and tell you a mixture of truth and what they believe you need to hear.

The fact that you are holding so tightly to an incomplete sexual experience im guessing your wife told you what you needed to hear.

My wife told me she didn't enjoy sex in her affair, because she knew my greatest enjoyment from sex was her being fully engaged and enjoying it. Of course she was not being honest at first, she did enjoy the sex, its sex we all enjoy it even when it's not the greatest.

I think the overall message isn't so much how much she did with him, but experience tells us she is absolutely minimizing. Thus her need to say it was incomplete...honestly what difference does that make?

The fact that you are holding so tightly to an incomplete sexual experience im guessing your wife told you what you needed to hear.

I'm not. In fact I've said several times I do not believe her. I've told her I don't believe her, I've posted probably 10 times here that I don't believe her.

...its sex we all enjoy it even when it's not the greatest.

Not trying to be that guy who like corrects other people's spelling and whatnot, but no... that's not even in the ballpark of true. Lots of people have had sex they didn't enjoy. I, myself, have had sex I didn't enjoy. It's NOT always good.

I think the problem here is that we just don't know what actually happened. None of us were there, so we aren't in a position to be definitive. Yeah, minimizing happens, but so too does confession. My fWH told me tons of things I would never have known after dday. I had only placed him with one OW. There were more. And I only know the details I know because he gave them to me and he gave them to me because he really, really wanted to re-earn my trust.

Personally, I have high hopes for the OP's marital reconciliation. Most of us would have given our eyeteeth for a cheater whose conscience hurt them enough to confess like that. It doesn't mean that he's utterly safe to take her at her word, but it doesn't mean that he's not either. His are the boots on the ground and his judgment is the judgment that counts. He has to live with the outcome.

The recent discussion about whether she stopped or not, if he has enough truth or not, and if it would even matter if she hadn't stopped goes to the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread about a polygraph.

He definitely has enough truth to divorce. For reconciliation though, you can't know if you have enough until you have everything you can get. The Reconciliation forum on this site has plenty of people years out who still doubt their wife/husband. I'm at least four years out from DDay, I still post and read on this site, I don't think my wife's affair is ever going to "go away" and I don't believe any doubts I had about her story would either.

I don't suggest/push the poly because I don't believe OP's wife and I want him to prove it. A poly does more than just scare her into telling the truth or possibly catch out her lie. It's an opportunity for her to show she's being honest about what happened, lay the framework towards rebuilding trust, and put herself through some discomfort and embarrassment to quash some of his doubts. Poly's get talked about here like they're some sort of negative or needed to make lying WS's tell the truth. I think they're a valuable baby step WS's have to put some weight behind the "I'll do anything" bit they always claim.

PFB84 you just posted you don't believe her. Why not give her the chance to show you that you can believe her?

Sorry if someone has pointed this out before, but it's also quite possible that PIV sex didn't occur because the Guy climaxed during oral perhaps if you go the Poly route this could be a Question ?
Good Luck 🤞