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Some people can pass them with ease while lying through their teeth.

Really?

Those that can "easily" pass polygraphs are people that either train to pass them or sociopaths that aren’t too bothered about lying. I can more-or-less promise you that a normal person trying to fake a poly on issues that are important and relevant to them would have a really hard time falsifying the result first-time.
You will hear all these stories about taking a sedative, having a stone in your shoe or whatever. All tactics the operator knows of and understands and can counter. If your wife had the chance of meeting an operator and taking a poly with the purpose of learning how to cheat… well… after a couple of runs she could train to confuse the other operator.
The big caveat regarding polygraphs IMHO is the quality of the operator. I have to admit I find a traveling polygraph-operator bordering on being on the same level as the truth-sayer at the carnival… I would suggest you check up on the credentials for this guy. Does he do any legal work, corporate work, court work? Does he have references and qualifications? Done any seminars or training lately?

Contrary to common belief the polygraph doesn’t give you the truth. Like if your wife truly thinks 10 - 1 is 8 then she would pass a polygraph if she says "no" to the question "is 10-1 = 9?", despite 9 being the truth. What a poly gives you is if the person being asked is being honest. Best way to determine this would be by asking your wife a question she doesn’t know you already have the answer to.
Like if you KNOW your wife contacted OM in January of last year but she insists she last talked to him the year before then a key question would be "Since the first of January 2022 have you had any contact whatsoever with Name Of OM". Of course, the operator would have previously defined "contact" so that it includes e-mails, phone-calls, physical contact, social media and whatever. If your wife had previously told you that there hasn’t been any contact and then fails the poly… It’s a clear indication that she isn’t being honest on THIS issue and therefore most likely on other issues.

It might be easier to pass a poly if the consequences are irrelevant or low. Like a university experiment, or the typical routine test done on many government workers. If the only consequence of failing is that you need to pee into a bottle to determine your drug-use, or don’t get paid the fifty buck prize for fooling the poly then it’s easy to just go and try. But if the consequences are that your marriage is over… that stress makes fooling the polygraph hard.

Now… IMHO a polygraph is something that is waved around here on SI like a catch-all-cure-all thingamagic. IMHO it should be used cautiously and strategically. Basically it’s used to confirm that your spouse is being honest. If she passes then there is some pressure on YOU to move on from the initial stages of infidelity. It’s not the end – but a watershed. A milestone of significance. If she fails… IMHO it’s an indicator that she is not reconciliation material, and trying to do so would be futile. I think THIS message has to be loud-and-clear before she enters the room.

I still don't have a timeline I can believe 43 years after the discovery of the affair.

Mine was 29 years ago and then another confession a year and a half later, "I was in love with another man but we didn't have sex." Right!

The "I don't remember it was too long ago" is absolute b.s. I can remember the names and dates of everyone I've ever had sex with before I hooked up with WW and I'm 72. Having sex with someone else while married is a traumatic experience that is deeply imprinted on the brain. Don't fall for the minimizing trick.

Trickle-truth is devastating. First he worked at a liquor store. A couple of years later he was in the military. Then finally he was a cop. Each time it felt like starting over.

Had WW take a polygraph in February of 2020. Here are the only two questions I was allowed:

1. From February 1994 to present, have you had any type of sexual contact with
anyone other than Mr. Kite?

2. From February 1994 to present, have you had any secret intimate relationships?

She passed both questions. The only problem was that she had been having secret phone conversations through September of 94 with the a**hole after we had moved 3000 miles away. I know this because she admitted it to me before the polygraph. She had been carrying on an EA. Therefore the polygraph was a waste of time and money which really ticked her off.

As others have pointed out, it's best for you to be in total control of this process.

The examiner repeated the test, as she was also surprised that my wife passed.

Why would the examiner be surprised?

Anyway, my WW offered a polygraph. I think it was a bluff and she was shocked when I agreed. She found the Examiner and paid for it and scheduled it. I drafted 4 questions to be used. My wife wrote out a timeline. When we arrived, the Examiner interviewed me, read the timeline and then interviewed my wife for an hour and a half and had her verbally recount the timeline for him. He then met with me again and we finalized the questions. He put the questions into the right format and then administered the Exam. The whole thing took 3 1/2 hours. WW was a broken down sobbing mess. But she passed.

This is the proper way to do it. WW told me after the polygraph that she felt like she was having a heart attack several times during the examination.

I remember your posts. Im kind of shocked you are still married tbh.

That said, in response to this.....

A couple of you suggested I should control the questions asked during the exam. I'm in full agreement.....BUT.....she spoke with the examiner and setup/paid for the session already. I was told of this after it was setup.

I say that she is (supposedly) doing this for your benefit. To help you establish some basis of truth. The questions, therefore, must be yours. Period.

On that note, I have seen others post possible poly questions and received help in honing them to a sharper, more incisive edge. Maybe post some that you are thinking of and let us speak to them? Just a thought.

On a personal note, it must have been torturous to have this revelation hanging over you after 43 years and in this stage of your life. Stunning.

Strength, clarity and peace of mind to you RG. Truly.

I will admit I cannot do this (and I'm a fair bit younger than the poster).

The "I don't remember it was too long ago" is absolute b.s. I can remember the names and dates of everyone I've ever had sex with before I hooked up with WW and I'm 72

I certainly cannot recall names, and dates???? No possible way. And no I did not work as a prostitute or an escort in my former life, but in my 20s I certainly had a fair bit of fun.

As for the original topic, this:

I say that she is (supposedly) doing this for your benefit. To help you establish some basis of truth. The questions, therefore, must be yours. Period.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:58 PM, Monday, August 7th]

I certainly cannot recall names, and dates???? No possible way. And no I did not work as a prostitute or an escort in my former life, but in my 20s I certainly had a fair bit of fun.

I must be an idiot savant but most likely just an idiot.

I must be an idiot savant but most likely just an idiot.

I must be an Idiot Savant as well. I’m only 60 but I also remember the name of every partner, approximate dates (was able to put them in chronological order)how we knew each other/how we met and how we found ourselves "together". This is 14 people between 1979 and 1983. I actually wrote this out in a "timeline" form to "model" what I wanted my WW to do when she wrote out the timeline of her affairs.

I fully understand people have varying degrees of recall but you would think some of these would be somewhat profound. You don’t remember the first time you had sex with a partner other than your spouse? You had 4 affairs lasting 6 months or more that you were emotionally invested in but you can’t remember how or why they started, what year they were, when and how they became physical, how many "interactions you had", how, why and when they ended for ANY of them? Is a "long time" 7-8 months like you say, or 18-24 that the "evidence" points to? Yet for a one night stand, you CAN remember getting a text from the AP, meeting at his house (including the location of the house) what time of night it was, what he was doing (building a fence), having sex and then sitting on the front porch afterward and the topic of the discussion (his wife never sits on the porch with him)?

I also understand compartmentalization and all that. It just all seems "selectively convenient" if not outright bullshit.

August 8, 1983. Where were you and what were you doing? What did you have for lunch and what shirt were you wearing?

I couldn't respond to any of that, let alone if I had sex with somebody. (Yes, I was promiscuous at that time and alcohol was involved.)

I couldn't give you names or dates. I didn't meet XWH until 1986 and couldn't give you the dates we had sex.

I've had to go home to change clothes on Thursday because I realized I wore the same outfit in Monday.

August 8, 1983. Where were you and what were you doing? What did you have for lunch and what shirt were you wearing?

I was in my house in Knoxville, TN. I was unemployed and could only afford the rent and minimal food. Gas was too expensive to go anywhere. I had a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch (same lunch every day) and I was wearing a t-shirt with an athletic shoe (adidas, Nike, Puma, etc.) logo on it because that is all I wore unless "dressing up". I did not have sex that day because my girlfriend/Fiancée was in Michigan visiting her Grandparents. I started a new job one week later.

Some of this is "generalities" and I can’t "Guarantee" this is how I spent that day but there is a very high likelihood that is how I spent it. I am certain about the "no sex" part.

Also, I don’t think most of us are looking for a "Dragnet" level of detail (it was a Tuesday at 3:15 PM, March 12th and sunny outside). Like I said on my previous post, I’m just looking for the "basics" (start/stop, how long, how many times, when did it end and why) of the LTAs. These LTAs are somewhat analogous to dating someone for 6 months or more (that essentially what they were doing). I "get" not remembering every ONS but anyone should remember a person they "dated" for 6 months or more. And I get the "pushback" on "how many times". But you can "ballpark it": " I saw him for 6 months. We became sexual 2 months in. We had sex once every week to every two weeks for the remaining 4 months". One of my UW’s APs lived out of state and came in the first Friday of every month. It’s pretty easy to "do the math" if you are only seeing each other once per month. Sometimes you have to look at everything that was going on in your life and the circumstances of how you met and became involved. I helped my UW with a lot of this. We could nail down timelines by things that were going on (she got braces in 1998. That "gets in the way" of "affair activities"). Where did she work, which department, where did we live, what were our kids doing (she met up with one AP at our son’s out of town AAU baseball tournament. She didn’t remember the dates of that but I did.)

Sometimes it takes "effort" to get to some of this info. That’s what we are lacking. We sat down and started walking through our lives beginning in 1983. I could tell her things we were doing and she was able to "fill in the blanks". Mundane stuff came back easy (me throwing a crawdad on her and causing her to break her necklace in the mountains in July 1983). But when we got to the affairs, "vapor lock". "I don’t remember" and "I don’t know". Crying, snot, shame, shut down. We discussed her first 2 affairs over 2 weeks and she asked to "take a break" from the exercise (she "couldn’t remember" things she had previously told me about these two so now "established facts" are in question).The break is at 12 weeks as of today. It feels more like "avoidance issues" than true "memory issues" to me…..ultimately, this will be our undoing.

Two parts to my reply. I have extensive experience in polygraph and memory from my employment.

Polygraphs: while they are not admissible in court for many reasons, they are an interesting and helpful tool in gaining insight into truthfulness of response patterns. By using those patterns, we can surmise the likelihood of the truthfulness of one response - so in looking at this one question, we can say "looks deceptive" or not.

That said, quite often the most interesting and useful information was gleaned in the pre-interview process. I cannot tell you how many times we had people confess to drug use, lies on the application, theft, and one time we had a guy confess to seven rapes (yes, seven) during a pre-interview process. (We were screening candidates for law enforcement or clearance positions).

So it’s definitely quite common for the polygrapher to get a confession and a "sudden gust of recall" prior to the administration of the test.

Memory:

I have a specialization in memory and cognition in my practice of over 30 years, so could speak for months on this. So will try to be brief.

Memories are stored and maintained based partly on level of importance. One of the things that the brain uses to determine what level of importance a given memory has is how many times you retrieve it (other factors may be how it relates to life safety, personal enjoyment, for example). So, think of your address - you write it down at first, but since you retrieve it many times, you just commit it to active memory and can retrieve it at any moment because you use it so frequently.

So, the opposite is also true. You store a lot of memories that you do not retrieve even one time. Like, what did you do the evening of February 4, 2004? Unless you got married that day, or were on a cruise, you probably don’t remember. But maybe you could, if we figured out that something happened on the 3rd, and we worked forward from there. But generally speaking, the brain doesn’t place importance on many things if they are not retrieved and used. Ultimately these things are put in a dustbin. We call them forgotten, but there could be something that triggers them with the right memory - perhaps something that is stored neurologically adjacent.

So knowing this, if the WW in this situation has not spent time recalling this affair, it is absolutely reasonable that she does not recall details. The details may not have been important to her (if she was emotionally invested the emotional aspects may be more memorable to her than times and places). She may not recall exactly how many times, where, when, etc. Those details may be vague, and may flow into one another, as the brain may very well have them stored together as one "episode" by this time, 48 years later. This would be a normal process of consolidation of events in memory, not unusual. Maybe a good therapist trained in recall could help tease it all out, maybe not.

Also know that our memories (even people with "great" memories) make errors of attribution, sequence, location, detail… It’s normal. It is not deception, just how it works.

I am in the midst of deciding what to do right now but I found a polygraph was essential to getting to the bottom of what had actually been going on as my WW had minimised what had happened, showed no real remorse and trickle truthed (all the usual) whilst always continuing to maintain that "nothing happened". Polygraphs are not so common in my country but doing one was critical to my establishing some of what had been actually going on and its extent. My own thread which is still ongoing has the detail but I would say the following:

1. YOU have to own this. You need to first pick, meet and vet the polygraph examiner on your own in person. Get comfortable with how they operate. Their experience. Their competence. Their rigour. The way the do it. I spent 2-3 hours with mine one-on-one. We devised questions (I had a list but he modified the wording if not the substance). He explained how he would counter and detect counter-measures. Discussed the probabilities and the risks of false positives and negatives etc. Do not proceed if you have any doubts. I felt I was in very good hands with mine after this meeting.

2. You shd be the one paying for the polygraph (so the examiner is working for you). You shd be the one deciding what Qs to ask etc.

3. A good examiner will set up the test with the person being examined before the formal testing by going through a rigorous set routine where the person being examined is asked to tell the truth and lie about some other things in order for the examiners to observe and calibrate the responses.

4. Only say (4) questions. They should be factual. No ambiguity or definitional issues. Very clearly defined. Requiring very clear yes or no answers. Not "what ifs" or "what might have happened" or "what one was thinking". Or any discussion or qualification.

5. In my case I did not disclose the Qs to WW ahead of time. This was very important to my discovery of prior betrayal that I had no idea or suspicion had occurred.

I think this conversation is a very clear example of something my WH and I discuss all the time: what his brain deems important is different than mine. Some people are good with dates and times and places and names. I am not one of them. I cannot remember the names of people I have met numerous times (the couple that owns the house next to mine for example - I had to look on the tax assessors website to get their names - and they have had me over several times since I lived here). I am just really shitty at that kind of stuff.

However, I can recall other details with a lot of specificity. For example, I cannot answer this question at all (and this is just mind-bending that anyone would know this info):

August 8, 1983. Where were you and what were you doing? What did you have for lunch and what shirt were you wearing?

I can tell you that sometime between 1995 and 1997 I hooked up with this "really hot guy" who was visiting my area from overseas. We met, I think at this pub/restaurant down by the beach. I am sure my friend L was with me as she dared me to strike up a conversation with him, which I did. I can't recall if this was day or night, when the conversation happened. He was French and was in town for like two weeks and we hung out just about every day. He had this really cool (or I thought so at the time) blond short hair cut and frequently wore a plaid (brown tones) shirt jacket as the weather was cool out, which makes me think it was fall or winter. We definitely made out, but in all honestly, I can't recall if we actually had sex or not (I think so but IDK) - heck I can't even recall his name now. I think it started with an M, but I'm not 100% sure. I just can't recall but I was super into him for those two weeks, and we even wrote each other a few times and promised to meet up again but never did. Who knows what happened to that guy...

The way I can recall the details I can about him is where we met versus where I was living at the time, and the car I was driving. I know I sold that car in 1997 and that I didn't live in that town until 1995 - hence the time frame. Just deductive reasoning. If I could ask my friend L when she lived in that same town (I lived there first then she moved down) that would help get me closer in time. The how we met and the plaid jacket would never have stood out but for the dare. My friend L said to me "I dare you go talk to the guy in the plaid jacket" - and we never did such silly things like dares, which is why it stands out. Otherwise I would still remember him, but I likely would not recall how precisely we came to meet.

You don’t remember the first time you had sex with a partner other than your spouse? You had 4 affairs lasting 6 months or more that you were emotionally invested in but you can’t remember how or why they started, what year they were, when and how they became physical, how many "interactions you had", how, why and when they ended for ANY of them?

So in response to how much someone recalls, it is maybe its a lie and maybe its not. You will never know, but as incredulous as it may be, the honest answer can be no, or sort-of. In my case, if we are talking like 20-30 years ago, likely not. And I am NOT defending a WS - I am just pointing out that you can make yourself crazy over details, which someone plausibly may not recall. Again, depending on how long ago it was, I would not be able to indicate except maybe a rough estimate of how many interactions I had or when/how they became physical.

In thinking about it, for me 20+ years ago there is zero chance I could answer that about more than my WH - and even then that first time - it's not burned into my brain at all. I know the first time WH and I became physical was in his house. I can tell you the year I think (again using deductive reasoning and my old work calendar as I was near where he lived for a work conference) but as we did not live in the same place, I could NOT tell you how often we saw each other over that next year or so, and we had to fly to do it so you would think it would be "memorable" but it all kind of jumbles together in my mind.

All that being said, I can tell you the band, lyrics, name of songs, and recall where I was the first time I heard most of them for just about any song aside from country that came out from 1975 to 2005. I won a pretty decent chunk of change playing something akin to the old "name that tune" - I can remember thing IF I associate them to something else and my memory for music is weirdly comprehensive. But I can't recall my neighbor's name. Sigh.

I guess what I'm saying is, realize not everyone recalls the same things in the same way that you do. Some of us are different.

Thanks to each of you for responding. THIS is why I posted the question here. And I was rewarded with sage advice. And I have put it to good use as you'll see below.

You may recall in one of my posts that I have wondered whether this was an elaborate ruse to get me to stay. My gut was correct once more.

A few moments ago I sat my WW down and asked what she wanted out of the exam. She said it was to give me the truth so that we could move forward. At that point, I asked how she paid for this. (I checked all of our credit cards and bank accounts for two months back for a record of the transaction - there was none) She answered she had paid for part of it with some cash she had stashed. So, I asked how she could pay cash to someone out of town. Her answer? She mailed him a gift card.

Hmmmmmmm.......I wasn't born yesterday, dear.

The next part of the conversation went to an even lower depth. I asked for his credentials and his contact information so I could speak with him in advance of the exam. She went ballistic. She's claiming that would somehow bias him. And - get this - she said she couldn't believe I don't trust her. No kidding!

The exam is clearly a dog and pony show. I told her to keep the results to herself - I wanted no part of them. Even my suggestion of letting me setup an exam on my own was rejected.

The fact is she is still protecting her relationship with him 43 years after the fact. No reconciliation can be built on that foundation.

When I go to bed at night, at least I know that I have given my dead level best effort to salvage this marriage. Three years of trickle truth and all I have to show for it is confirmation of what I already knew......and little more.

So, now I wonder if she has a secret bank account.

I would be looking for that, because she may be stashing money away.

I agree with 5decades. This looks very fishy. I also kinda feel that there could more affairs she could be hiding and she doesn't want you to find out about it through poly.

So in response to how much someone recalls, it is maybe its a lie and maybe its not. You will never know, but as incredulous as it may be, the honest answer can be no, or sort-of. In my case, if we are talking like 20-30 years ago, likely not. And I am NOT defending a WS - I am just pointing out that you can make yourself crazy over details, which someone plausibly may not recall. Again, depending on how long ago it was, I would not be able to indicate except maybe a rough estimate of how many interactions I had or when/how they became physical.

I "get" that too. You also used a 2 week fling nearly 30 years ago that you could recall some details but not others. My WW can recall "none of these key details". I think most people could recall some but not all for significant emotional relationships they had lasting 6 months or more. As an exercise, I asked WW to recall every boy she dated before we met (this was 43+ years ago). She could recall the information for every one of them. First and last name, how they met, how long they dated, what level of physicality ensued (she was a virgin but had done everything else) the rough number of dates they went on and how and why they ended (usually because she wouldn’t have full on sex). She could put them in chronological order as well. She also can remember every kid my son played soccer with when he was a kid (he’s 37). I can’t even remember that.

Part of my problem is also using "I don’t remember" to lie. My WW held back 4 APs on D-Day 1. Two of them trickled out by "accident". She told me she couldn’t remember the first guy"s name that cheated with then wrote "Alan" down on her pad. I’m like "who’s Alan"? The first guy she cheated with.

On D-Day 2 she disclosed her longest LTA. She said she couldn’t remember his name. But then I supplied it (I knew his SIL and she told me) and she about shit herself. Then said she didn’t know where he worked (the towing company his wife and my friend’s husband owned. The name is on the side of the Tow truck you met to screw him in a commuter lot in). Then it lasted "a long time" and they had sex 2-3 times. Then it was 5-6 months. Then when they met and an incident at my son’s baseball game puts it at least 18 months and likely 2 years. Meanwhile she casually mentions AP’s wife’s name and son’s name (who was born during the affair). Info I already knew. So where do lies end and "I can’t remember begin". That is why it is so hard to believe she can’t remember ANY of this for ANY of the affairs. Just too "convenient" for me. Also, there is an unwillingness to correlate "what was going on then" to even solidify the timelines…..

Regarding Memory:

There've been several really good posts in this thread regarding memory and how it works. I have several comments surrounding this topic:

- I am not asking for "play-by-play" details from my WW. In fact, I don't want to know the where, when and how of each time they hooked up. And I couldn't reasonably expect her to remember such details. What I know is bad enough. Why add to the hurt with information that would certainly be minimized anyway.

- I am asking for the timeline of the affair in very broad terms. Again, not the specific dates, times,etc......but the month.

- A little bit about my personal beliefs. There are certain events that I simply will not believe are not remembered. Please keep in mind this is all being asked in the context of when we got married - a day she does remember details of. Yes, she remembers details about the wedding and tells people stories about a mishap that occurred with our caterers. She remembers details about the honeymoon. But she can't remember - even approximately - the month in which they first went out while we were engaged? And she can't remember with certainty whether she continued to see him after our wedding? And she can't remember whether she continued to see him after I discovered the affair? She can't remember when the last time was they hooked-up?

I get repressed memories and everything. But not remembering some of these events even approximately.......that's total horseshit in my book. She lied about the timeline when the affair was discovered 3 months after our wedding. Was that also because she had repressed the memories? I don't think so.

Have you asked her why she's socked away cash and how much? I mean she's literally hiding money from you and secrets don't lead to stability.

I saw this on your page.

The single stupidest decision I have made in my entire life was to stay with her after discovery of the affair. That decision has cost me mightily.

I couldn't agree more.
I made the same stupid decision.

Brother, you are likely not safe with her. If you decide to D, you shouldn't take it as somehow you failed to try to reconcile. She has every opportunity to come clean and is not only obfuscating her obvious responsibility, she is making it so much worse in trying to manipulate you the way she is trying to.

Ok, I don't get it. So she didn't really schedule someone then? What was she going to do, just print out a fake report and hand it to you? Yikes.