SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

StillGoing No I have not asked her yet. That's coming shortly.

WishidleftHer *SMH* I've kicked my own backside a 1000 times for this. It would have so much simpler then. And I would have had plenty of time to meet someone else and start a new life. This is one of the few things I look back on and seriously regret.

1994: That is almost verbatim what I have told her.

annanew: Yes.....she did schedule someone and the exam is to take place Friday morning. For what it's worth.........

She is still wayward, nothing about this is remorseful. She is giving shady answers to your legit questions. A poly is part of moving forward in R. She is going alone, leaving you out of it and paying with secret money. Tell her never mind save her time and money, she will need it for a lawyer.

Mia Culpa: The money she used to pay for the exam was "rainy day" funds I asked her to hide. I completely forgot about this but remembered instantly when she told me where the money was hidden.

This serves as a reminder to be extra careful interpreting things when emotionally amped-up like I've been.

Putting the money issue aside, this is still a big deal. It sounds like she hired someone to give her a pass so that you would think she had been truthful. If she really thought that she was telling the truth, she would not object to you scheduling a test with someone credible. The whole sending a gift card in the mail sounds insane. Why not just pay by card over the phone or online and reimburse the account with her cash? It's not like you don't know it's happening. Why all the secrecy otherwise?

I know of another BH who got scammed on a polygraph by his WW. The "test" was done by the administrator at their house. It apparently only took about 30 mins which is laughably short. Of course he said she passed with flying colors but wouldn't offer anymore information about it. It wasn't even clear what questions were asked. Even though the BH knew that there was no way this was a legitimate test and that he was almost certainly being lied to given the contents of the text messages he saw vs what his WW was saying, it still caused him to doubt himself and remain paralyzed in limbo. Unable to move on with R given the lies but unable to move on with D because there was now a chance that his gut feeling was wrong. You are right not to want anything to do with this test.

- A little bit about my personal beliefs. There are certain events that I simply will not believe are not remembered. Please keep in mind this is all being asked in the context of when we got married - a day she does remember details of. Yes, she remembers details about the wedding and tells people stories about a mishap that occurred with our caterers. She remembers details about the honeymoon. But she can't remember - even approximately - the month in which they first went out while we were engaged? And she can't remember with certainty whether she continued to see him after our wedding? And she can't remember whether she continued to see him after I discovered the affair? She can't remember when the last time was they hooked-up?

I get repressed memories and everything. But not remembering some of these events even approximately.......that's total horseshit in my book. She lied about the timeline when the affair was discovered 3 months after our wedding. Was that also because she had repressed the memories? I don't think so.

As often happens, a deliberately vague answer to one question answers unasked questions.

But she can't remember - even approximately - the month in which they first went out while we were engaged?

If that is true, and the date cannot be pinpointed, is it possible that the affair was already established prior to the engagement, given that engagement itself was no barrier in her mind to having an affair?

And she can't remember with certainty whether she continued to see him after our wedding?

Which proves that she did not draw any kind of hard line in the sand about the affair being okay before the wedding, but unacceptable/impossible after it. Had she drawn such a hard line, it would not be a question of remembering a date, she would remember, "I never saw him after our wedding". The fact that she drew no such line suggests she was open to continuing the affair after the wedding, which in itself is pretty revealing. Whether that openness is the basis of her vagueness will remain conjecture, but it does not look good.

And she can't remember whether she continued to see him after I discovered the affair?

As with the previous point, there is no requirement to remember a particular date and time to answer a question like that. How can anyone be vague about it? "I can't remember" actually means that she does remember that getting married was not a hard 'stop' for her, and that getting busted was not a hard 'stop' either. Which begs questions about why neither of those events had any significance for her.

She can't remember when the last time was they hooked-up?

That is pretty damning, because it means the physical element may have continued a lot longer than she may admit to.

And more importantly, it begs questions about why none of these events had enough significance to be memorable, and by extension, what significance the marriage had and has for her. That is the implication of her vagueness, which is actually a bigger issue about her than any individual element.

Edited to add: Paying cash to a polygraph operator that she does not want you to talk to leaves open the potential for a bogus test that does not go through his or his company's books, and a report on the findings that could be written to order. Not good.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:25 PM, Wednesday, August 9th]

M1965:

"That is pretty damning, because it means the physical element may have continued a lot longer than she may admit to."

Exactly what I fear and the far and away most important thing I want to get a truthful answer to.

RG,

Wow I just reread your story tough read.

One good thing about your WWs polygraph is that you can read the questions and see what she was careful to avoid.

If she claims it was 10 questions you will also know it was a fake or manipulated test.

For example if the questions are restricted to only that affair then she may still be concealing others affairs and OM.

Update:

Wow.....the last coupla' days have been a whirlwind. I contacted the examiner and have spent a total of two hours on the phone and text to formulate 7 questions that cover what I need. I am also paying the remainder of his fee for my wife's exam. While that's not as good as ME contacting him, arranging the exam and paying for it entirely, it's the best I could do under the circumstances I was handed.

The examiner is 70 years old and has been performing poly exams (30,000+) for over 40 years. He has conducted them for corporations, military, police, lawyers, etc. He estimated somewhere near half of the exams were tied to infidelity. He is also the senior instructor for the trade organization for poly examiners.

After a very few minutes in our first conversation, it became quite clear he has done this many, many times for BS's. He knew the items I'd be interested in getting answers for practically before I could ask them. Same with follow-up questions. Needless to say, I was quite comfortable with this guy.

The questions are all formatted for "Yes/No" answers. I had to reword them seemingly a zillion times before they were finalized. He insisted that my WW be copied on every text regarding the questions......his standard is all people undergoing an exam should know what they are going to be asked.

Interesting, I asked him for his thoughts about conducting an exam on someone claiming suppressed memory. He chuckled and said there is no such thing! We think alike.

The great thing is I will get answers I can hang my hat on. There are three ways each question can be answered: 1. "No" and the machine doesn't register any deception. 2. "No" but the machine registers deception. 3. "Yes". An answer of yes to any of the questions is an admission to something she has not owned up to. Each "Yes" is followed up with clarifying questions to get details.

My wife is undergoing the exam as we speak. She'll get an oral summary from him before leaving. Both of us will get a written summary via email over the next couple of days.

No matter the results, both of our lives will change today. Will the change include us staying together as a married couple? I have absolutely no clue. I've been told so many different answers to questions about the affair. It's almost like a weather forecast.....they change almost daily. I simply don't know what to believe. Today I will get the unvarnished truth and it won't be different in one hour, tomorrow or next week. It's a welcome change - no matter the outcome.

It sounds like the examiner could not have better qualifications/experience, and I hope the exam gives you what you need. Thinking of you as you go through this.

M1965: Thanks for the well wishes. Time will tell the tale. 43 years of trying to get answers has made me completely fearless of what the results may be.

That sounds like a great outcome. Glad you had a chance to talk to him. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

RG,

You might find that if your WW completely empties herself of her guilt and unburdens her mind that she will become a new person. One that loves you more completely and that you can do the same for.

My WW also before and after our wedding day had contact with OM1.

The truth changes people, it's a palpable feeling when a wound is healed

[This message edited by survrus at 7:07 PM, Friday, August 11th]

I hope that you're OK RG

I assume it's over by now. Did she tell you the content of the oral summary given her?

Raleigh,

Regarding "repressed" memories: the polygrapher laughed because it’s a common excuse we heard from people who wanted to hide information.

We may push memories to the background, but they are not truly forgotten or repressed if they have importance or significance in our life.

Traumatized people may experience some measure of "blocking" of recall, but the major points of events are still recalled. In 31 years of practice, I had very few patients, even trauma patients, who had true and total amnesia of events (I’m talking about those without traumatic brain injuries).
(For example, I had exactly ONE who could not recall his name, address, or anything about his life or who he was - and after about two weeks of work with him, we got there and identified him.)

So the idea that a person with a typical, average functioning brain cannot recall general details about basic facts - with their own wedding as an anchoring point in the timeline - is, well, bullshit in my personal opinion. That part doesn’t track for me, because it tells me that the timeline is being withheld.

When you have a specific event that is of high importance in your life, like a wedding, you will recall things around that point in time - for example, I went to California before the wedding, grandma died two weeks after, Johnny was deployed before that, etc. The wedding gives you a very clear anchor point and delineates events into "before and after". ESPECIALLY things like "I was sleeping with another man before the wedding, but stopped because I got married" for god’s sake.

Glad you were able to craft the questions with the expert guidance of the veteran examiner.

Hoping you get the clarity you seek to be able to move on with your life RG....with or without her.

RG, Hope you got what you needed from the Poly.

Raleigh, I hope you're OK.

Given how many days have passed since you last posted, and what was going on then, I imagine you encountered another bomb.

If I may, keep your chin above water. And remember to keep your dignity.

Since this thread is a lot about poly’s I want to add my POV on them for any future reader – maybe more so than for Raleigh.

I think poly’s can be extremely useful and I think any fear of their reliability, ability to fake a test etc can be countered. They might not be 100% accurate, but they are IMHO accurate enough for the purpose of most users.

Some years ago we had a poster with a long, ongoing thread. His wife was having an affair with her boss. He had proof that they spent afternoons at a hotel near the office, that when travelling they shared a room, messages with sexual content, he found hidden lingerie and sex-toys… Basically he had everything other than glossy pics of them having sex.

He got the typical trickle-truth when eventually she admitted to everything. Everything he KNEW. But she totally denied any sex. They only "held hand" or shared a room to save the company some money or whatever.
He demanded a poly and after some refusal she agreed. Only… with his monitoring he discovered searches for advice on how to beat a poly as well as some sedatives that are suggested to screw up the poly-readings.
Fully versed and medicated to beat the poly she too the test… and failed. When asked in two different ways if she had sex with OM she failed when she said "No". She passed other questions but clearly failed on the key issue.
The polygrapher told the husband that it wasn’t even close. It was a totally clear failure.

Rather than come clean the wife demanded a new test and a new operator. The husband agreed to this and a couple of weeks later – maybe better prepared and on heavier medication – she again took a test with the same questions. Again the same result: She failed on the sex question.

Last time I saw a post from this BH was a couple of years ago, and about 2 years past the later failure. Despite the lies and the uncertainty, he is still married. He is still questioning the truth, but his wife is all happy and lovely because she is still married and got away with her affair. Frankly – in his last posts he sounds miserable.

Now – I truly think that a couple that BOTH want to reconcile and are BOTH willing to do the work CAN reconcile. But it always needs to be from a position of truth.
Until both parties have a reasonable expectation for the truth to be on the table there is a big anchor holding back on advancing in reconciliation. Usually that anchor is tethered to the betrayed spouse, and its placed there by two things: The wayward spouse isn’t being totally truthful and/or the betrayed spouse still doesn’t trust the WS to have been truthful.

To reconcile you need trust. Unfortunately trust left the marriage faster than the lowering of the first zipper in infidelity. There is no trust. We – the BS – would be ignorant to have the blind trust of pre-affair.

What we the BS might need is a belief that some sort of trust can be rebuild – eventually. It’s definitely a better form of trust than the blind trust. It’s trust-but-verify. Something we should all apply to all aspects of life. Like if a site tells you the Martians are in NY then maybe verify the reliability of the site before you put on your foil-helmet…

What Raleigh could/should do (or have done) is maybe tell his wife something along these lines:
>Trust is totally shot after d-day and I question everything – including my judgement.
>We can’t have a marriage without trust. I realize that IF we reconcile I need to give you trust. But that’s going to take time.
>To help me reach the stage where I can see recovery you need to show ME trust.
>For now the key issue I need is that I see you trust me with the truth.
>I can give you a promise that I will commit to reconciliation for the next month. No matter what you tell me NOW my reaction will NOT be to storm off and file or beat up AP or whatever. I will give myself time to digest the truth. You need to TRUST me on this.
>It’s not a promise that we will eventually fully reconcile – only a promise that I won’t lose total belief in our relationship.

>I need a timeline and I need to know the answer to these questions (I suggest they be factual rather than relative or sentimental and should handle issues that can really be dealt with. For example, I would not ask about OM size or performance, but I would want frequency and time-frame).
>I might have further questions that I need answers to. I hope we can create an environment conductive to me getting the truth I need.

>Once you tell me you have answered everything I have to overcome my feeling of not totally believing you. Plus there are things that I can’t verify. You can help there by showing me communications, phone-bills, accounts…

>At some point I have to believe the truth is on the table. To help me feel convinced I will schedule a polygraph. The questions will be based on what you have already told me so if you are being honest you should fly through. If however you fail it would be a very strong indicator that you don’t trust me, and it would totally eliminate any base of trust I might have built up towards you. Failing the poly will definitely do MORE damage to our marriage than any truth you tell me now.

Then you have to carry on with it…
If the WS complies and participates in a 30-90 day period of working on reconciliation, working on the truth and so on then eventually you have the poly.

If the WS passes it doesn’t give them a hall-pass, but it supports that they are sincere in their work to reconcile. It should make you – the BS – realize that maybe your WS deserves one point in the trust-o-meter, and that you can build up from that point.

However… if the WS fails and the operator does not give a plausible explanation for why the failure might be unclear… then IMHO you believe the result. And the result is showing you that the WS is nor R material.

Regarding the scoring of poly’s… a good operator will recognize the "certainty" of an answer. Like they can tell you if a failed test was a very clear failure or if there was enough doubt to make the answer unclear. If the operator questions the results… maybe reschedule another one. If not – I would rather use the money on an attorney.

Raleigh, no matter what the outcome of the poly was, I hope that you are as well as possible and moving forward towards your being happy and a good life.

Good luck and stay strong