SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I haven't posted here for a very long time, although I read here every day. My BS and I had a conversation about an affair I had many years ago. During the conversation, my BS said, "When there's no trust, there's no love." I believe him. He doesn't trust me because I lied to him for decades about the affair and interactions I've had with men over the years. We live together and are still married, but my cover-up of the terrible choices I made has made him feel as though I think of him as a eunuch.

I know that my choices make life very sad for him. He's never talked to anyone about it except our daughter and me. I went to three different councilors with very poor results.

I'm hoping that writing here and interacting with others on this site will help me.

Thatwill,

Sorry if this has been answered by You, but did you....

Tell him the complete truth.

Answer all his questions honestly without minimizing or omitting details.

Expose the OMs to their BWs.

Get tested for STDs.

Move away from the sites of your affairs.

Ask him even all these years later are there any questions he need answered, sometimes people just give up and suffer after years of trickle truths and become zombies.

No stop sign.

I'd just like to point out one thing. You said "I'm hoping that writing here and interacting with others on this site will help me."

Gently. It still, decades later, seems like you're concerned with yourself. Sounds like your husband has endured his pain for so long that he doesn't know how to live without it.

I would humbly suggest your statement should be "I'm hoping that writing here and interacting with others on this site will help me learn how to better help him."

Stay strong.

Have you tried MC or IC?

Gently. It still, decades later, seems like you're concerned with yourself. Sounds like your husband has endured his pain for so long that he doesn't know how to live without it.

It's okay to want to help you (BS here too). Had my WH not wanted to help himself we wouldn't be speaking today. That being said, when you say IC had poor results you mean for you? Or him? You can't make someone talk who doesn't want to - to you, or anyone else. The best you can do is make sure your WS knows you are there and available to talk if they want. And of course, yes, the whole truth (to the extent you haven't) - it's imperative for your marriage to be able to move forward in honesty.

Thanks for your questions and responses. When I first joined, I put up my story, but it's gone now. survrus, I did tell all of the truth finally, but he had to drag it out of me over years. I spent many years thinking that I would only make things worse by telling him everything. I know now that it's the only honorable thing to do. I stole years of choice from his life by holding back the truth from him and also minimizing.

Also, when I was telling lies, I was also lying to myself. I didn't tell my AP's wife of the affair. I didn't think of her at all, sadly. I was very self-involved and didn't think of who I was hurting. My AP and his wife probably are both dead (I know he is). He was 15 years older than me and I'm in my late 70's.

Yes we were tested for VD and had it. I've given my BS many terrible memories...illness among them.

The sex took place in the house that we still live in today. It's a sad thought for my BS that I had sex with another man in a room in our house.

My BS and I talk regularly about the affair and our life together. He tells me how it makes him feel. He wishes I had come clean with him from the beginning, then he would have been able to choose whether to stay with me or not. As it was, I kept so much from him that I feel like I stole his choice from him.

1994, I want to help myself because I'm the one who needs to understand and fix any screwed-up thinking that's still there. My BS is a really strong and resilient guy. I'm the one seeking help.

SacredSoul,I tried IC and got worse than no help. I don't think it would be fair to ask my BS to go to MC.

This is the fifth time I have attempted to write something to help you. But every attempt I made came off as sounding harsh and you don't deserve that.

Even though I have lived longer than you and have had plenty of years to gain wisdom, I really can't think of something wise and profound to say to you.

I have seen other couples throughout the years who have rug swept the affairs and it isn't pretty. It happened to my best friend and, unlike your husband, my best friend even caught his wife in the act, so there was no denying or trickle truthing her deceit. Because of a sense of pride he swept everything under the rug and kept a stiff upper lip in public. Before her affair he was a loud, gregarious person... the "class clown"... a prankster. I always knew when he was around and I was happy he was around because he always made me laugh. After he caught her he became a shell of a man... staying in the corner, out of the limelight, never laughing much. As I recall her affair or fling happened in the early 70s. He passed away 4 years ago. So he was in this type of marriage for almost 45-50 years. It was sad to see.

I could be wrong, but I imagine your husband now acts sort of like my friend did.. knowing his wife betrayed him.

my cover-up of the terrible choices I made has made him feel as though I think of him as a eunuch.

I hope he can find some semblance of happiness his remaining years.

I hope you find others here with the help you seek. I just don't know that I can.

Just know I wish the best for you both.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 2:50 PM, Saturday, August 12th]

My AP and his wife probably are both dead (I know he is).

In one of your posts in another thread you mentioned your AP killed his wife few years after your dday.

lrpprl, thanks for making the effort to post. It does help me to hear stories of similar circumstances. I'm sorry for all the BS's who feel diminished by the actions of their cheater partner. My BS has done very well in many ways. He's accomplished a great deal working on a hobby and learning to build and remodel homes. I think that's what's kept him sane. People really admire his abilities. Also, though, I know he could feel so much better about himself if I had not deceived him or if I had told the truth from the beginning and understood the gravity and depth of my choices and actions.

I know he feels ashamed of me. He also feels ashamed that he didn't hold my feet to the fire at the time just following the affair.

Lurkingsoul, yes, you're right. I don't know how long after the affair my AP and his first wife divorced. Then he remarried. He caught his new wife in bed with another man and killed her. I've wondered how much the divorce and the murder had to do with me.
Ironically, he killed her for just what I did...sex with a man not my husband in our house.

ThisIsSoLonely, I was the one who went to IC. The first councilor talked about another patient's private information. The second one just listened and didn't offer ideas or help. The third couldn't understand why I told my BS about the affair to begin with.
My BS and I have both been reading here on SI for years and have read many books the best of which are Not Just Friends and How to Help Your Spouse...

I think this is good for me to write about my thinking.

Thanks for the clarification. I got very confused because your other post didn't tell us that your AP killed his second wife. It didn't mention he married for second time. In this thread you called his first wife who was betrayed by both of you as his 'wife' and not as his 'ex-wife'. So, I got confused.

I know he feels ashamed of me. He also feels ashamed that he didn't hold my feet to the fire at the time just following the affair.

The beginnings of healing both of these hurts is the same: more PROACTIVE ownership on your part; more PROACTIVE accountability, even now.

You may think (and even he may think) that he wishes he'd held your feet to the fire, but what's really underneath that is that he wished YOU'D held your OWN feet to the fire and been more accountable and told the truth. Why? Because if you told the truth only because he was holding you accountable, then you hadn't/haven't really changed.

You need to demonstrate self-motivated accountability to truly be safe. Even now.

Have you initiated a heartfelt apology for the damage you've done?

Have you told him that it wasn't ever his job to hold your feet to the fire, that you failed at that job?

Have you thought of ways to hold yourself accountable in ways that are meaningful to him in a dependable and ongoing ways?

The more you drive your own growth and the more you hold yourself accountable for your growth and your part in healing the relationship the safer you are for him and the more he might be proud of you.

The beginnings of healing both of these hurts is the same: more PROACTIVE ownership on your part; more PROACTIVE accountability, even now.

Yes, BreakingBad. I needed to hear that. I'm hoping that posting here and getting others' thoughts will help me to become a more thoughtful and, as you say, proactive person. Like many cheaters, I have been very passive and conflict avoidant.

Have you initiated a heartfelt apology for the damage you've done?

I have, but he wants more than that. He wants to understand and for me to understand how I could have made the choices I made.

Have you told him that it wasn't ever his job to hold your feet to the fire, that you failed at that job?

No, but I will now.

Have you thought of ways to hold yourself accountable in ways that are meaningful to him in a dependable and ongoing ways?

One thing I think I'm doing better now is listening to his feelings about me and our marriage. ie. "No trust/No love." It breaks my heart to know that I've brought this about, but I'm able to understand now and not react in an angry way.
Thanks for your help.

@thatwilldo

Welcome back, I remember your user name. It's good that you still check in. Stay awhile, okay?

There's a lot of damage here to undo. My wife and I have made a lot of progress in R, however, there are still things that we simply haven't managed to repair. It's really fucking sad to be honest, and we both grieve over the fact that we both want to be even closer, but trauma isn't something that just conveniently goes away just because it should, or because you want it to. Sometimes trauma sets in for the long haul.

I don't say that to discourage you in any way, rather, I just want you to give yourself a little grace and a little forgiveness. Yes, your husband is still processing what happened, and is not yet ready to let his walls down. That will take time, therapy, and the re-building of a new relationship. If it ever happens at all. In other words, give him time, give him your love and honesty and emotional support, and let go of the outcomes. That last part is really important. And it's the hardest to do. As long as you are trying to direct your relationship to the conclusion that you want, then you remain both selfish and manipulative, no matter how loving or "right" it may feel on the inside. When you really, truly, love someone, unconditionally, then you are more concerned about thier welfare than your own. (If you have kids, that kind of love is a good example of what I mean). What is best for him... may not be you. That's a really hard thing to even contemplate, let alone accept. But if you do... it opens up the possibility of unconditional love for your husband. And that will do more to help him trust you again than anything else you can do or say.

So your job, in the meantime, while he processes at his own pace, is to become someone capable of unconditional love. I don't know your story. Some people had an understanding of what that kind of love is in their lives, but had it damaged by trauma. Others (like myself) never had it modeled for them in the first place, and so they have to learn from scratch. Both are tough, but achievable if you really want it, and if you never give up. As an added bonus, learning to love others involves first loving yourself, and if you love yourself enough, then loving others, and letting go of outcomes, is easier, because you don't have the constant noise and worry of selfishness to overcome. You know you'll be okay no matter what because you trust in yourself. Again, this is possible.

If you haven't read them already, I'd like to recommend two books to you. The first is "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown. The other is "The Book of Forgiving" by Desmond Tutu. The first book will help you to understand the power of vulnerability. That's something you're going to need in order to overcome barriers such as guilt and shame. When you can own your what shames you the most, it alleviates the shame, and breaks the spiral. The second book will help you to better understand what forgiveness is, how it works, and how you can start to reframe your thinking so that you can forgive yourself for everything you regret or that you don't like about yourself.

Good luck, keep coming back.

I think there can be love without trust, but it’s not sustainable…
I don’t think there can be a healthy marital relationship without respect and that respect requires a level of both love and trust.

OK – this might be long and confusing but here goes… I’m going to start by going over several issues, and then try to combine them all into some solution:

I think that sometimes we settle for the least of several evils. Like if your husband had to deal with infidelity, d-days, trickle-truth and all that then THIS – stating he has no trust and limited love – creates an environment he feels he can control/deal with. After all – if he’s constantly thinking "she’s going to cheat" then if he were to catch you he can think "KNEW IT!". It can somehow help with the pain. THIS marriage he’s offering – to HIM it’s less bad than the marriage where he was sharing you.

I think this is common behavior in many aspects of life. We might be unhappy at work but stay there grumbling and complaining because we are afraid of a new job. Better the devil you know mentality.

The "blind trust" we are raised to belief in and expect… is really non-existent and unrealistic. I have applied a trust-but-verify policy in my life and I suggest you look into that.
In it’s simplest form: Some years ago I had to get my truck repaired. Having been ripped off by the previous mechanic I asked around and was directed to this small owner-managed shop that got good recommendations. The owner gave me an estimate along with a description of what he had to do. About an hour later he phoned to suggest I have some additional work done and explained why (if the break-calipher on the right side is this bad it’s reasonable to expect the left one to be the same…) along with an estimate. The vehicle was fixed on time and the cost in accordance with the estimate. He had the parts that he replaced ready to show me, confirming that they needed replacing. This is how this mechanic got my trust. He verified – and I verified – that what he said and did was correct. Next time I needed my vehicle fixed I trusted him with the job (and again he verified what he did).

I apply this to relationships. I trusted my young sons to go out on a Saturday evening, yet I would check their pockets and smell their breath for booze or smoking. Because they did neither I trusted them again next Saturday.
I found sites like this after dealing with trust-issues from infidelity in a previous relationship. I didn’t trust my present wife. However – after confirming several times that when she claimed she was going to the gym that she WAS going to the gym… I realized it was MY issue and that I needed to let go. I had to trust that when she said she was at the gym she was at the gym. It’s not blind trust – if she had called on a Friday evening claiming to be at the gym… well… I would definitely verify.

Then there is the guilt I think many WS might feel for causing all this…
I won’t excuse or defend your decision to cheat.
But… its consequences are not a sentence for eternal unhappiness. Not for you, nor your husband.
The decision to reconcile – to remain married – is not a decision to compromise on the aim at the BEST marriage possible.
I think that both the WS and the BS have the right and the expectation that the marriage progresses positively after both decide to reconcile. This definitely take time – a LONG period of time – but at some point it should go past the no love/no trust issue. If it doesn’t… well… maybe the commitment to reconciliation isn’t there.

This site is about infidelity and we mainly connect that to physical infidelity or a third party. People can also experience emotional infidelity within the marriage, financial infidelity, heck… even online-infidelity or gaming-infidelity. Basically any action that is done to the level that its detrimental to a good marriage. It’s the reason I don’t spend EVERY weekend and all evening fishing – it would wreck my marriage.
But… in trying to keep control of the situation and limiting his possible pain by keeping what might be an unhealthy distance between the two of you… your husband is cheating on the marriage.

I am NOT equating this to "traditional" infidelity!
But it is damaging the marriage.

With all the above in mind I think you need to take some action:

For one, talk about trust. Tell him that you accept that neither of you can really demand or expect blind trust, but that you will lead the way with trust-but-verify. Offer him access to your social media, your phone and your agenda. If you are leaving for the gym let him know. If you are going to your friend Sarah let him know both before you leave and after you get home. Maybe not direct like "at 2 PM I am meeting Sarah at Starbucks and we will sit in booth 2b and have latte’s". But maybe tell him in the morning your agenda, and in the evening mention what you have been doing. By repeatedly doing what you state you will do you gain trust.
With time you can be a bit more assertive. Like if he questions where you are on a Friday from 2 to 4 and for the last six months you have been at Zumba at that time you ARE allowed to state that and that he should know it by now. He might need a healthy, kind but firm reminder to move on.

Another issue: Talk about what you two want out of marriage. Your affair took place – it happened. He can leave you or you two can reconcile. That in-between spot you are in right now is not a sustainable option. Let him know that. Offer paths forwards. It’s not "you have to trust me and love me" but rather "what can we do to regain trust? Here is a suggestion about how I will offer you verification that I am doing what I claim to be doing, and with time I hope you start believing – trusting – me".
If he states there is no love left… ask him if he really wants to be married to someone he doesn’t trust, love or respect. Ask him if it’s a temporary situation or if he thinks it’s permanent. Ask him if he believes he can work on it and what you can do to help him.

Like I said: I’m not in any way justifying or excusing your infidelity and I am 100% certain your marriage is where it is because of what you did. But when the both of you decide to reconcile… you BOTH need to move on.

DaddyDom, you said:

Yes, your husband is still processing what happened, and is not yet ready to let his walls down. That will take time, therapy, and the re-building of a new relationship. If it ever happens at all. In other words, give him time, give him your love and honesty and emotional support, and let go of the outcomes.

I would like you to know that my BS and I spend most of our time together and enjoy each other's company. We watch sports together, take walks, travel and enjoy our meals together. We have two children that we love. Politically, we mostly agree. It's just that there's an underlying sadness that prevails. I don't know, how do you know if you've let go of the outcome. I don't expect forgiveness. I think I've hurt him too much for that. Of course I want love and respect. That's what I'm working towards. I think it's what we're both working for. I think I've gotten better at showing empathy and that's why I finally told the complete truth on our 50th anniversary eight years ago. I knew he deserved it.

So your job, in the meantime, while he processes at his own pace, is to become someone capable of unconditional love.

I've been working at developing patience and the ability to listen and I think that has helped. Also, he has become much better at expressing his feelings towards me without anger. I'm trying to love myself, too...sometimes not so easy.

I've read Rising Strong and will look into the Tutu book. Thank you for your help in thinking about these issues.

Bigger, you said:

I don’t think there can be a healthy marital relationship without respect and that respect requires a level of both love and trust.

This is very true and I'm working towards a more healthy relationship.

I think that sometimes we settle for the least of several evils. Like if your husband had to deal with infidelity, d-days, trickle-truth and all that then THIS – stating he has no trust and limited love – creates an environment he feels he can control/deal with.

This is probably true also, the devil you know, as you've said. However, he's not worried about me cheating now. What he worries about is if he has the complete story of our married life together. That's where the lack of trust is. I do always tell him where I'm going and call if it takes longer than expected. I think we're both comfortable with that aspect of our life. I think he still wonders at times who I really am.

He says he's learned about my past by tuning over rocks and he doesn't know if there are more rocks to turn over. He doesn't trust that I've told him of all my deception. There are many triggers in daily life that remind him of my deception. All you have to do is look at today's headlines in the news outlets.

The decision to reconcile – to remain married – is not a decision to compromise on the aim at the BEST marriage possible.

This is a good reminder not to expect perfection, but I would love to develop trust which is my reason for coming here.
Your post gives me lots to think about. Thanks for helping.

Just wanted to say that maybe your BS is struggling with the fact you are not who he thought you were and he was in love with the person he thought you were. You have shattered his illusion and he has to face the truth of that. Ask him what he needs from you to prove you have grown and changed and then provide it even if it means IC again. Do it for him and not yourself so don’t expect anything in return.

Gracey, you wrote,

Just wanted to say that maybe your BS is struggling with the fact you are not who he thought you were and he was in love with the person he thought you were.

You've hit on an important aspect of my BS's feelings toward me. Before I told him about the affair (of course, leaving a lot out),
he never imagined what I was involved in and it was a huge trauma for him.

I'm hoping that writing and interacting here will help me and my husband to understand better my terrible choices and behavior. I think people like you have a better and deeper understanding of infidelity than any councilor I can afford.

Thanks for your help.

Thatwilldo,

Read the BH threads SI to understand what Your BH is feeling, sometimes your BH will be waiting for You to say something which indicates You truly feel what he feels.

As an example my WW asked me which OM 1,2 or 3 bothered me the most.

I think it was excruciatingly difficult and painful for her to ask that, but it does stand out in my mind.

Did you offer a written timeline and polygraph?

I am feeling a bit skeptical of WSs right now so I have to admit I can’t know for sure if you are sincere. But, if you are I give you a lot of credit for having a lot of kind thoughtful considerations regarding your spouse’s trauma. You don’t sound defensive which is a huge plus. I have to admit it felt like a bit of a gut punch when you said you decided to come clean on your 50th anniversary. That was a very honorable act, but you are probably right to be realistic that your husband is always going to carry significant sadness that it took so long. That sadness doesn’t need to predetermine that you have a failed marriage. There are alot of things to be sad about. Some are more prone to sad feelings obviously but even if they are not we are all going to be sad about health changes, sad about the prospect of death, sad when something sad happens to our kids. Etc etc. So the fact that he carries that sadness is possibly something to accept. He is a grown up. He can - and I’m sure has - decided that he would rather be with you than without.

On trust…
It sounds like he trusts you enough to share with you the stuff that still troubles him. As you said, he isn’t worried about your current behavior, its the past and who you really are. Affairs catastrophically break apart our believe that we can really know our spouses inner world completely. It was a false belief to begin with but losing it is painful. The more you let him know you - your thoughts, flaws, worries, ungenerous moments - with humility and vulnerability the more solace you are going to give him, as well as more comfort that he at least knows you pretty well. He may always fear you will drop a new bomb of information on him, but you can empathize with him on that, which is a kindness. BTW…you really do seem to empathize about that, so it seems like you guys have a lot of good stuff to work with.

Last thought…the thread about finding out years later, in the I Can Relate forum is made up of people struggling with exactly the thoughts your husband is struggling with. Maybe it might help to look it over if you haven’t already.