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I do agree the 2-2-3 seems like too many transitions. But kids at 5 or 6 struggle with a full week too. Hard to know what is best.

I had one of the worst nights of my life last night. Through several sources I figured out that WW almost certainly drove five hours over to see her AP and sleep with him for the first time. She made a silly promise to me several weeks ago that she would wait until we were divorced, which of course I knew was ridiculous at the time, and she could never resist. That was three weeks ago. I spent all last night knowing what they were doing right at that exact moment. I could not sleep, just couldn’t. It was awful. I even messaged her, which may have been a mistake, but she has ignored.

The bottom line is she is absolute poison to me right now. The kids are emotional last night and missed her, and I knew exactly what she was doing and where she was, and had to try to keep myself together.

I still have very strong feelings for her, but would really like that to turn to some form of disgust or contempt because of how toxic she is, how selfish and how utterly neglectful she is of the carnage left in her wake.

I am exhausted. Emotional. And do not know what I can do to help get over these feelings. The thought of her with somebody else burns me up but I know I have to accept it and deal with it. What do I do?

[This message edited by TwiceWounded at 9:31 PM, Wednesday, November 22nd]

I have been dealing with these feelings all day but I’ve been blessed with a group of supportive friends and families who have helped today. But it’s been brutal. One of the worst days of my life. I shouldn’t care that WW and AP slept together for the first time, right? But I do.

Anyway. Instant karma. I heard through AP’s live-in girlfriend that AP’s stuff got stolen when he was out last night and his car got broken into.

Turns out… it was WW’s car that got smashed into. They took AP’s backpack which had his laptop, iPad, house keys, work keys, and various drugs(generally legal) and work stuff. WW had to drive 5 hours home with a missing window, and then hit a piece of debris that ripped off part of the bumper and license plate and possibly did more damage. Lastly, she had to go to urgent care because she started getting a bad earache which turned out to be an infection.

Do all these stumbling blocks change anything? No. Can’t undo her actions. But do they make me feel a bit better? Maybe a tiny bit. She said it was the worst 24 hours ever, and she probably had to file an insurance claim/police report, and she’s still on my car insurance…so it proves she was off with AP.

The situation still kills me inside though. WW called me to talk about it, said we talked last week and "I said she was free to do what you want" which is…BS. She told me that. I said I still wanted to be married and this was a horrible mistake. She ended up really freaking out on me, yelling and saying to move on, she’s divorcing me because of ME, I need to grow up and am acting like a child. Of course I know this is nonsense, but it started to get to me a little…especially when AP called later and joined in, with his pompous A-hole attitude. I shouldn’t have engaged because it only opened me up to more pain,

It’s late, so I’ll end here…but what a nightmare of a day.

At the risk of maybe oversharing and becoming personal…
In the last few months, I have had to deal with some really hard events that involve persons that I normally avoid interacting with. There are some things that can have serious legal impact, as well as tax and financial damage. Not for me personally, but for young people that I really care for. These people that I normally avoid… they take crazy decisions based on what they THINK and FEEL, rather than what is right or by the law.
For me – with the interest of a couple of young underage kids and their inheritance in mind – it’s really tough to be sidelined and not listened to. I don’t stand to gain a cent, nor lose a cent from whatever outcome. But those young people can lose a lot, with minimal impact for those waylaying them.

My solution? Well… I have to decide what I can impact and what I can’t. I then have to let free that I can’t.
My mantra: You can’t deal with crazy, so don’t even try…

Maybe try applying that to your soon-to-be ex wife’s actions…

Twice,

Disengage. Kids and divorce only. She’s beating you with a baseball bat and you’re correcting her swing.

She’s a serial with no interest in changing. It will always be somebody else’s fault. Stop offering your soul and your sanity to the gaping bottomless void in her.

All true. I know I need decide what I can impact and what I can't, and let go of the rest. There's a lot I have to let go of.

It's been 3 weeks, and it's just moving so incredibly fast... my IC pointed out that many people have a rocky ending to marriages as they try to reconcile (or not), sometimes live together while planning out their exits, etc. Or at least have a rocky phase where they know D is possible. It's not often a nuclear explosion followed by immediate move out. I know it can *sometimes* happen that someone comes home from work and a spouse has moved out without explanation... but often not.

In this case, STBXWW went from "I want a divorce" to moving into a new house in a week. And *I* had thought we were happy... in the prior several months we'd done a bunch of stuff. Trips, birthday parties, outings with kids, dates, shows--and I felt like were actually ok, and still loved each other, even if we weren't perfect.

That in itself should tell me she is sick, and in the midst of an addictive episode. There was nothing going on that was worth blowing up a life and family for (with or without an AP), which is what *basically everyone* tells me. I'm guess I'm just reminding/convincing myself of this now.

It is true she's a serial cheater in denial with no remorse, and is beating me with a bat. And I cannot expect anything at all from her that will help me feel better. Only worse. I don't even want to be in the same room as her. I am trying to disengage, but still require enough comms between kids/mediation my days are fraught with risky comms. She's thus far had trouble with 50/50 parenting which adds to the comms I need to have with her, and I'm also documenting in case I need to fight for more than 50%.

[This message edited by TwiceWounded at 10:41 PM, Wednesday, November 22nd]

Twice

This will sound contradictory but at the stage your are at maybe the BEST possibility to reestablish a marriage is by accepting she wants out and behaving accordingly.

At the moment she knows (maybe even subconsciously) that she has a safe haven back. Heck… since you want it more than she then maybe even a way back on her conditions.
At the moment she justifies her actions with your behavior. Occasionally you ask her back or do something that feeds her "reasoning" for why the marriage is over, why Twice is an emotional nutcase ant there is no future with him.
This is quite common… Divorcing couples will initiate arguments over the smallest issues simply to be able to say "See how unreasonable he/she is? The coffee WAS cold! He/she couldn’t see that! No wonder I had no other option than end this marriage!" and feel all warm and fuzzy while avoiding the real reason they are divorcing.
At the moment she knows she can get away with a lot, because you are helping her – enabling her – by being available at the level a husband or wife should be available. You do this in the hope she comes back and in the fear you might lose your kids.

IMHO your best strategy might be something along these lines:
Tell her you are initiating the legal process and then DO IT!
Tell her you intend to follow the letter of the law and that should ensure you are both fairly treated. You can suggest that if you are both reasonable you can share an attorney but let her know you are getting one for yourself. It’s then her call if she wants her own or trusts yours. Then DO IT!

No need to be mean or nasty. No need to tell her that you are divorcing because you hate her or whatever. If she starts trying to slow the pace you simply point out that you are only doing what is correct considering the options. She asked for a divorce and you are doing divorce.
You can be clear on that this is not your initiative, not your wish, but you are happy with moving on.

After that – NEVER talk to her about the future and your relationship.
Start making changes. Rearrange the furniture at home. Maybe paint the bedroom. Remove pictures with her in them. Box her stuff and start asking her when she will remove it and/or take it. If she says after the D then fine – that’s an answer. Don’t’ argue with her abut it… Don’t point out changes to her but she will notice if she visits.

Start being unavailable. No – you can’t switch days with the kids next Friday, you have plans. The plans are not her issue so you don’t have to say any more than that. No you can’t pick them up next Thursday. No you can’t come over now. I’m not suggesting no flexibility – but rather that it be within reasonable boundaries.

Change. Get a new haircut. Start grooming yourself. Start jogging and lifting weights. Buy a new shirt. Nothing drastic – but be the best version of yourself. Makes you feel better and helps the recovery. Might make her doubt her decision, but that’s only a nice byproduct.

Create a schedule… Have an agenda. If you find yourself sitting on the couch moping about your situation… get off your ass! Schedule as much as you can – like have a meal-plan in place so you ensure you eat healthy. Have a cleaning plan in place.
Ever wanted to try something? Like learn how to play golf or fish or fire a gun or peddle a canoe? This is when you do that. Give yourself the time and grace to enhance your life.

Basically – act and do everything you can to be content. Don’t even try for happy – that will come eventually. But in all appearance and action – be content.

Do this and as things progress you become content – and even happy.

Do this and your wife starts realizing the finality of her decision. She might herself be content with that decision, or she might not… At that point it might become YOUR choice if you want back or not, and on what conditions.

You’re absolutely right. It’s pretty textbook 180. Which I’ve started doing, to the best of my ability. I’ve done it in the past but it’s a lot tougher with kids. However, it’s really not with the goal of getting her back. After her debacle driving 5 hours to sleep with OM I can’t take her back. Even though the thought is tempting I know that is peak codependency. I have to be done, no matter what. I keep trying to tell myself this until I truly accept it.

Yesterday, D6 was really missing STBXWW. So we FaceTimed her. STBXWW tried to engage with me at one point, asking how Thanksgiving was and I just said "I don’t want to talk right now, D6 wants to talk." And left it at that.

Thanksgiving was hard. I drove my mom (who lost her husband last month) and my 2 kids (5 and 6) to my sister’s house for the day. I had a lot of family there but *nobody* knows how to handle kids except me. Neither of my sisters has children, my mom is wrapped up in her own grief and the other family there prefer to do adult things and sit and chat or play folk music. This is hard on D6 and S5, who are rambunctious and need lots of attention. Result is a LOT of work for me… I definitely hit a wall by the evening and am still exhausted.

I’ve had the kids since Monday, and today we’ll be decorating for Christmas with some help from friends and family. Luckily I have a good support system growing, because as the holidays get underway there is a GIANT elephant in the room which is Mom being absent for all of these special occasions. Since she missed her days this week, she may pick them up early to start next week, which would give me a respite and be good for the kids. I told her about D6’s growing abandonment issues (we had a teary 20 minute conversation at bedtime about how she thinks no one likes her) and she said "oh poor girl. She needs mama." YOU THINK?

I’m at a point where I don’t know how to ever forgive her for what she has done to our children. And that’s tough, because I need to coparent for the rest of our lives.

I have some other fears coming now, which are things like "STBXWW gets pregnant with OM’s baby." There are reasons I think this is very possible that maybe I’ll go into later. But… I don’t know what I’d do if she created a half-sibling for my kids from this absolute catastrophe of a situation.

[This message edited by TwiceWounded at 5:00 AM, Saturday, November 25th]

Stay in the present, TW. Don't borrow trouble from room thinking about a possible sibling.

When you're going someplace that may not have many options for children, have your own party pack ready to go. Get a ride bag, reusable shopping bag or backpack set up for this purpose. Get small items that would be toys or activities for the kids. Crayons, color books, plastic zoo animals, cars, Polly Pocket sets, etc.

Sorry D6 is feeling like nobody likes her. Be there for her and be consistent. Right now, you're between a rock and a hard place. All of this has happened so quickly that she hasn't had time to absorb things.

You’re right, you’re right… worrying about possibilities does nothing at this point. I heard she’s going to get an IUD anyway, so maybe kids are off the table. I dislike that for other reasons, of course. I need to get that out of my head.

In the future I’ll be better about bringing supplies. I think I expected everyone to be a little better about helping than they were. Lesson learned.

STBXWW will be picking the kids up tomorrow afternoon, which gives her an extra day and a half with them. This makes up for the fact she didn’t see them all week, but means I’m going to miss them terribly since now I’ll go 4 nights without them… we are really trauma bonding through this whole thing. I’ve been avoiding blame and being tactful but it’s very clear to the kids that "we’re home and Mom is gone" so… that’s hard to explain away.

She still doesn’t understand how this is "taking the kids away" from me. It’s true many men get less than 50/50 but I was a *good* husband and a *great* dad, and did not deserve to have my kids removed 50% of the time. Even friends and family have said they may not ever forgive her for what she did to this family—her selfishness is on full display. I’m still documenting all the times she needs help or misses a day, and there is still a chance I decide to shoot for more than 50% custody.

Anyway. This is turning into something of a journal, isn’t it? I still appreciate everyone’s input. It’s one of the few things keeping me sane.

Edit—double post. Sorry!

[This message edited by TwiceWounded at 5:24 AM, Saturday, November 25th]

Journaling is good for processing emotions, so it's good for you. I've learned that the over thinking part can be a trauma response and I've done so much of that. One of the good things about IC was learning to be in the present and meditation helped with the thought spirals. I had similar thoughts about my XWH, too.

If your family isn't used to children, don't expect them to automatically know what is needed. It's ok to tell them what you need and to ask for help. (That's older and wiser me saying that.) When some people say ask me if yo need anything or let me know what you need, mean exactly that. It's ok to say what you need and when.

Use those four days for some self-care and to get ready for their return. Do meal prep for the week and catch up on laundry so things can slide when they come back. I'm guessing they won't be gone that long.

I just wanted to make a suggestion on the 2-2-3 parenting plan. We are looking at a 50:50 arrangement for our kids (which I already know STBX won't manage) and one option we've thought about is splitting it over a 2 week period like this:

5, 5, 2, 2. If you start it on a Monday, it should work out that you each get alternate weekends. And you each have certain days 'free' both weeks - so if you know you always have Thursday night child free you can do an activity or make plans for then.

Another option we've thought about is doing a full week but the 'other' parent has the children after school for dinner etc in the week at some point.

I hadn't considered 5-5-2-2. That is something I'll explore, though I'm still nervous 5 days is too many... 2-2-3 does come with its own challenges though, and of course this entire situation sucks--there's no "good" solution. Only less bad ones.

Night 2 of 4 without the kids. One thing I've noticed is that my help/support is tapering off a bit, and I need to be more intentional about asking people for help, inviting them over, etc. As we approach the month marker, people (myself included) are likely starting to feel some emotional/logistical fatigue. But this is a long process. When my kids return Wednesday, I'll have food, a clean house, and lots of love to give.

Couple things in the last few days. I got some info from my Mother in Law, since she's been actively trying to "burst STBXWW's bubble" so to speak--for better or worse, trying to shatter the fantasy world she's living in. She was talking to her daughter (STBXWW) and we figured out that:

1. AP has convinced her all the times she cheated were my fault, because clearly there had to be something missing in the marriage for her to stray so many times... in other words "it's ok you cheated so many times, you should definitely leave your husband and cheat with me now because I'll solve that problem." Really ridiculous when you think of it that way. She *absolutely* admitted she was an addict and had a severe problem 7 years ago. And I guess now she's changed her mind.

2. AP is *incredibly schmoozey.* Meaning, as MIL was asking STBXWW tough questions about AP, STBXWW was texting them to AP and reporting back... AP gave convoluted answers filled with fluff. And included lines like "STBXWW, you're such a f***ing boss!" as if she were asking great questions, and "Tell your mother that you're lucky to have such a caring, validating mother who cares enough to ask these tough questions!" The fact STBXWW falls for this and thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread is dumbfounding--I thought she was smarter than that. Not to be arrogant, but I would run circles around this guy in any intellectual endeavor, or in any situation where *genuine care* was required. I guess they do always affair down.

Of course at this point we're moving forward with D and in many ways it doesn't matter... however, I'll have a MUCH easier time coparenting if she isn't pulling this pill-popping sleazey homewrecker into my children's lives, and if STBXWW crashes back to earth and becomes a healthy person instead of living in fantasy land. So I do have something invested in this.

Tomorrow I'm working in my office, which can be a nasty commute. I've been avoiding the commute since it's a long time to sit with my thoughts, but it must be done.

Been a few days.

This morning, I heard through a friend of mine that STBXWW has been "getting shitfaced" every time she goes out. This shouldn't be surprising--without my moderating influence, and because she's made these choices to go act young and single, I knew this would happen.

A week or two ago, STBXWW's mother (who I'm very closed to) called her on one of the nights she didn't have the kids and she sounded absolutely plastered. She had to work early the next day then pick up the kids. Turns out one of her friends took her to his house to stay the night so she wouldn't drive home, and had someone else drive her car there, and she managed to make everything happen the next day. So I know this is the truth, that she's drinking way too much.

What's concerning is this came through a long grapevine (someone she was with --> their brother whom they don't talk to much ---> my friend, who is that person's neighbor ---> me). The fact it made its way to me through these channels means it's obvious she is not making good decisions and they are worried... about what, I don't know. But it's notable. I'm not sure what the point of having this information make it all the way to me is.

Either way, she's completely separated from most of the people who love and care about her, is acting like a single young woman chasing a crazy music career. I am at a point where I still hate the idea of her sleeping with anybody else but have to accept she's going down a road where she is likely going to make a LOT of bad decisions... and I'm so used to being protective and keeping her grounded it's hard to flip that switch off and let her just go crazy. And when D is final she'll have a giant chunk of money for her to keep going and... do what? I don't know. I can't tell if she'll crash and burn or not, but does it matter?

Just some introspection. I don't know.

You did what you could. Now it's time to detach. Embrace your feelings, but do not act upon them. Write it down, share and talk, but remember, that you can't take her over and heal her life. It's her life and whatever you feel like, she will do the mistakes. She will not get over her developmental arrest if someone is waiting for her all the time.

As for your feelings about intimacy with others... You may feel that way because you don't know the woman of your life. Just engage with people just for friedship and if it is the one you will know it. Do not pressure yourself, but engage.

Of course at this point we're moving forward with D and in many ways it doesn't matter... however,

No, it does not. It. Does. Not. Matter. She can do whatever she wants. She is not your monkey, not your circus.

At *most*, you need to only be concerned about whether or not she is 'safe' as a parent while she is parenting your children. Is she drunk around them? Does she drive drunk with them in the car?

I'll have a MUCH easier time coparenting if she isn't pulling this pill-popping sleazey homewrecker into my children's lives, and if STBXWW crashes back to earth and becomes a healthy person instead of living in fantasy land.

You are not trying to co-parent. You are trying to force her to parent your way. Sure, co-parenting is a great idea, in theory, but that's not possible right now.

You need to consider parallel parenting. You parent your way on your time and she parents her way on her time. Stop trying to parent for her.

Also, focus on YOU. Get YOU better.

**********
And for what it is worth, I really liked the 5-2-2-5 parenting schedule. I felt like it worked well for both me and for my children.

Good points, and a hard truth. Thank you.

It's true I have been trying to make her parent my way. I guess I need to accept and let go of that--I don't have any control over her, what she does, or how we'll parent. "Parallel parenting" is a better way of thinking about it.

I am working on emotionally detaching, but she still has a tendency to get upset over things and call/text me to tell me--mostly things like "you're talking to people too much and making me look bad." She did start really laying into me in a phone call last night because I'd been talking to a mutual friend about her drinking, and that mutual friend brought it up to her and caused a kerfuffle. She said I'm trying to paint her as a bad mother.

So, in hindsight, perhaps I need to be careful what I say. But I was very clear that I can talk to people if I want, as can she, but I encouraged her to talk to people directly if she wanted to address things. But she said I always try to villainize her, and have her whole marriage... I think cheating on me with 6 different men will start to make others paint her as a villain and her own actions are the source of those opinions... but in the spirit of trying to keep things amicable I didn't say that. Just said I'd be careful what I tell people, gave her a succinct apology but again firmly stated I have a right to talk to people and so does she.

Anyway. That doesn't help me with emotionally detaching, does it? I suppose in the future I could just say "I don't want to talk about this. Talk to others directly if you have issues with them." Or just not pick up, but at this point in our D we still have to coordinate significantly when dealing with children so I do have to talk to her and can't just ignore her calls. However... she has 1 tool in her toolbelt, which is the lawyer card, since we are still trying to file uncontested. It'll be so much better for me if we can get through this uncontested, so I know I'm accepting a little more chaos and emotion in my life than I'd like.

Good points, and a hard truth. Thank you.

Sorry for the 2x4. In the spirit of honesty, I learned this the hard way and I am hoping that you don't make the same mistakes that I did.

I haven't read this entire thread but I do remember telling you a few weeks ago that you need to accept that your marriage is over.

I'm about to make sexist statement, which is really a reference to Ted Lasso. You need to 'woman up'... meaning, pretend to be detached but cry into your pillow at night when no one is watching. And here is the thing that I have learned... fake it it until you make it actually works. You get better at detaching the more that you practice it.

She did start really laying into me in a phone call last night ... [blah blah blah deleted by barcher144]

I deleted the second part of this quote because it's irrelevant: Don't talk to her on the phone.

Let me put it this, would you call your old boss and talk about your old job after you had quit or been fired? NO! You have either been fired as her husband or you quit as her husband.

It's slightly more complicated than that because you have children. You can talk about the kids. Nothing else. If she starts complaining about something or yelling at you... or even being nice to you. Ignore it. Not your monkey, not your circus. Wish her a nice life but recognize that you are not going to be a part of it.

So, in hindsight, perhaps I need to be careful what I say.

Or just not pick up, but at this point in our D we still have to coordinate significantly when dealing with children so I do have to talk to her and can't just ignore her calls.

I'd be careful of what you say but not for the reason that you think. You need to practice that she is not your issue any longer. Again, if she's sober around your children, that's all that you need to worry about. You are talking to her mom. Let her mom mother her, not you.

Yes, talk to her about the children. Nothing more, though.

However... she has 1 tool in her toolbelt, which is the lawyer card, since we are still trying to file uncontested. It'll be so much better for me if we can get through this uncontested, so I know I'm accepting a little more chaos and emotion in my life than I'd like.

Be polite. Be kind. (so that's why you shouldn't talk about her). But don't discuss anything personal with her at all. Stick to facts. And parenting.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:53 PM, Monday, December 4th]

It was not an unjustified 2x4, I needed to hear it. But now a big bombshell.

Up until now, we'd been attempting to file uncontested. Paperwork for our county was mostly done, minus some things we were waiting from our accountant on. Initial agreement was I get the house, she gets...most everything else.

I just heard from her mother that she is going to come after the house. She wanted her Mom to "mediate" between us so we could come to an agreement (meaning... STBXWW gets the house instead...) Mom will say no, because that's patently absurd and even just a few days ago STBXWW was screaming at her that she was talking to too many people and meddling.

She already moved out. Signed a 6 month lease. Has a boyfriend who lives 5 hours away with 4 kids, and though she's only seen him in person once (that I know of) was talking about kicking me out and moving him in *within a week of them talking.* I don't have screenshots of those messages, unfortunately. Though...maybe I could get them, now that I'm thinking about it...

I feel it's unlikely a court would give her the house considering she moved out, gave up her children 50% of the time, is pursuing a music career instead of her ACTUAL careers as a real estate broker and photographer, and is considering moving to LA. Am I wrong? I've had the stable career for 17 years and she has jumped from job to job and her recent decisions are proving her very irresponsible (already missed several of her custody days, drinking too much, putting her music career and shows ahead of childcare or actual work).

Regardless. I don't see any way I get out of this uncontested. Even if we file uncontested now, there are 3 months of her being rash and volatile with OM whispering in her ear about how she needs the house and more money.

I had a lawyer on standby but it's been almost a month since I talked to them, and the holidays are approaching. I hate it, but I think the idea of an amicable uncontested D is just a fantasy. And getting a lawyer opens me up to the possibility of a *huge* spousal support payment, which she currently is not asking for.