SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey Twice,

I had been offline a few months and dropped by the old SI to see a few updates — very sorry to read about your current situation — but also glad your STBX revealed the reality that she is never going to be a safe partner for anyone. In the long run, it will be better for you AND your kids, because eventually, your kids will get the reward of a much happier father. I do mean, eventually — I know you’re still in the middle of a LOT of pain since you’re back in the space of being betrayed again, and sweating the details for proper care of your children.

While I found a different path through, I know a whole lot about divorce. My Mom divorced twice, finally found a decent human to marry on her third try. Two of my three brothers dealt with divorce and being single dads. That and half of my friends seemed to have gone through divorce at least once.

I think you’re getting good advice, and another reason I like SI so much, every part of the forum has experienced voices, regardless of the path we take.

Anyway, other than cheering for you to find some peace on the other side of this, I will watch for updates here and if you need to vent anything about anything, I am always available for that.

I feel it's unlikely a court would give her the house considering she moved out, gave up her children 50% of the time, is pursuing a music career instead of her ACTUAL careers as a real estate broker and photographer, and is considering moving to LA. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are mostly wrong, although not entirely wrong.

The court, almost certainly, does not care about most of what you wrote.

Divorce is actually quite simple: (1) you take your assets and divide them in half, (2) you take your liabilities (i.e., debts) and you divide them in half, (3) you divide parenting time somehow (usually starting with 50-50 but often there are accusations that one parent is not qualified... blah blah blah) and impose child support, and (4) look at income inequality and compensate the lesser earning person based on many factors that vary by location.

The court does not care to get everything 50-50 and the court will just divide stuff quickly/easily. The court does not care much about sentimental value.

The fact that she was considering moving somewhere does not matter at all. She can change her mind. If she actually moves somewhere, then that could be a factor in parenting time. The court also does not care about a career in music versus real estate and/or photographer. The court might impute her income if she is underemployed or unemployed, depending on the actual laws.

So... I have two comments for you:

(1) Do not panic. Nothing has happened yet. You heard a rumor of a bombshell, an actual bombshell has not happened (yet).

(2) If a bombshell actually happens, it's 100% time to lawyer up. I'd probably recommend that you lawyer up anyway (even if it's just having a lawyer looking over your final agreement to make sure that it's all copacetic).

Please also note that very few divorces actually go to court so what a judge would do or not do... does not really matter as long as the two of you can reach an agreement on your own.

My personal recommendation is that you hire a mediator (not her mother) to help the two of you reach a settlement. You STBX is acting somewhat erratically and most people want to hide that stuff from everyone except their closest friends/family (e.g., her mom). So, you hire a mediator, the two of you sit down, and the mediator helps you reach an agreement. You (and your STBX) can attend this mediation session with or without an attorney.

I also recommend that you keep the house or fight for it like hell. My ex got majority custody and the fact that she was getting the marital home was a big part of that. I didn't care about the house but I do care about my kids so I kind of wish that I had fought for the house (I didn't want it for sentimental reasons... it was the house that she always wanted, not me).

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:25 PM, Thursday, December 7th]

Thank you OldWounds, nice to see you again!

Barcher--mostly I was referring to the fact she already moved out and signed a 6 month lease. I have heard that once a husband/wife has chosen to leave the family home, it's harder to persuade everyone they should come back and take ownership. But maybe that's wishful thinking.

I ABSOLUTELY am fighting for the family home. That's my most important consideration right now, because it represents stability for the kids. Right now the kids call "home" our house with me, and "mom's house" when they are with her. I want to be home with them.

I did get a lawyer. Just had to be done. I couldn't risk it any longer. I now have to hope the inevitable escalation ends up worth it. We talked about getting a mediator, but if she has changed her mind and wants the house now, I don't see a way we really resolve that with the help of a mediator.

Anyway. It had to come to this I suppose. I know it's weird but I've operated with such transparency with her over all these years I've almost never done anything without telling her (or saying I won't do something, then do). It just feels gross to me. But it had to be done.

Earlier today, STBXWW said she found an old phone of mine in one of the boxes she took. She dropped it off with the kids' suitcases this morning.

I looked through it, mostly because I needed to check and see what messages/screenshots etc. on there she could have seen... wasn't sure if it was still connected to my iCloud or anything. It was safe.

I kept looking through pictures though. From 2014 and 2015. It had pictures of us celebrating getting pregnant for the first time, the ultrasounds... a pregnancy we later lost at 10 weeks. Shows and tours we did. Trips. Weddings and parties. Hikes. Holidays.

Ugh.

It's easy to focus on how awful she's been and is being. And I know that she'd go on to have 2 major PAs in the 8 or 9 years following those pictures. Some of the pictures even included the future OM in them, which she left me for. But that doesn't mean the loss I feel is any less intense. It's such a waste, such a tragedy... we had an amazing life in every way *except her being faithful* which sounds ridiculous, but she's an addict. She truly is, so when she wasn't in her addiction we had wonderful times together, and I miss those times. I miss her. I miss who she was during the good times. I miss just being around her, sleeping in the same bed, parenting together, living life together.

I guess it's all part of the entire mourning process. I've been focused on my kids so much, and the divorce, and keeping up the house and getting things done, that it's been a while since I thought about what this means to me. But today I'm just feeling a deep, deep sadness at the loss of my partner. I have enough experience to depersonalize and not internalize too deeply the rejection of her running to someone else who she thinks is better than me (I know he's not...usually) but... losing my best friend and lifelong partner is so sad.

It's easy to focus on how awful she's been and is being. And I know that she'd go on to have 2 major PAs in the 8 or 9 years following those pictures.

You have been heard. I understand, fully.

I had a good marriage, except for the fact that she was living a double life. I have an active(ish) post in New Beginnings where I am still struggling with memories. I basically cut her out of my memories, which is really weird. Like, I went to Disney with her and the kids and we had a good time... but my memories only focus on what I did with the kids.

Take care of yourself. This infidelity stuff can really affect your mental health, in some obvious ways... and some not so obvious ways.

*********
As far as who gets the house... or whatever. You will often hear things like it is harder to this... or it's harder to that. Take all of that with a grain of salt. There are always exceptions. So, be optimistic that you will get the house... but don't let up your guard. KEEP FIGHTING for yourself and your children.

I have a friend-of-a-friend who was kicked out of his house by a judge when his ex filed for divorce. He eventually got the house back as a non-marital asset (as in, she didn't even get any of the value of it back). My ex was awarded a horribly unfair temporary child support/alimony payment... when we went to court, her pitch was "the temporary order should be made permanent" more or less. The judge basically ignored that and ruled based on the evidence presented at trial, not the 10-minute hearing that had occurred 18 months prior.

Hey Barcher--oddly enough I remember you from my last stint here back in 2017. Glad to see you're doing ok, but I'm reading up on your story and it does sound like you've had a rough go, but have ended in a good place. I'll be reading your New Beginnings thread shortly.

I am doing my best to take care of myself. Not eating well has caused me to burn a lot of fat (which is actually ok!) and I've been trying to work out, so aside from looking haggard I'm actually in better shape than before, though I could still do with a little more meat on my bones, ha. I have been doing weekly therapy and surrounding myself with friends and family, but Jesus this is still hard.

Anyway. I did sign my lawyer, who said we'll be filing in January (assuming she doesn't file first... who knows). And over the weekend I discovered OM spent Friday - Monday at her house, essentially allowing him in the moment she took the kids to school, and letting him stay until the moment she needed to go get them after the weekend. She performed a show with her band, as she tries to revive her music career, which I'm sure he thought was great. And I took care of our kids the entire time, working my ass off. I asked to talk to her Friday night when DS5 was in tears at bedtime asking to talk to her... she ignored it for 3 hours then I got a "sorry my phone was in my purse" message (this is what clued me in that OM was there, she is so predictable). On Sunday she finally called to talk to them and my son wouldn't even talk to her. Just shook his head no a few times. Her loss.

I hit a point around Sunday when I just realized... I can't live like this. I can't allow anyone to make me feel like this, so intensely, so often. While she leaves the kids with me and demands child support. And I *really* began to dislike her. I just realized I don't ever want to see or talk to her again. I have to, because of the children, but I just... don't ever want to see her again. It's the worst part of any day I have. I'm going to exert a lot of effort organizing handoffs and such that I never have to see her. I just can't do it. She is starting to disgust me.

Twice,

Have you looked into co-parenting apps? Perhaps this way you can truly minimize your interactions with her. Any family available to assist with hand-offs? I have a friend who between the app and family help has been able to have nearly zero face or voice interactions with his adulterous XW and he’s all the better for it.

Start to document everything as it relates to her and your wifes interations actions with the kids and keep your lawyer abreast. Do not let her know you are doing this. This is for your records should it get nasty. She wants a musical career and spousal support. Who is going to pay for that? Not just speaking of money but time with the kids. Your aim should be full custody.

[This message edited by lparistotle at 11:09 PM, Wednesday, December 13th]

Gr8, I have looked into MyFamilyWizard, which cost $120 so I didn’t pull the trigger. I also need to further untangle finances from WW, which necessitates some talking—I have a few things left to separate. I need to get on that. WW is also kind of a mess…she has needed so much babysitting and made other mistakes that also necessitate seeing her. Example: being late to pickup DD from the bus stop, so DD walks home to my house. I get her a snack and she watches TV for 10 minutes, then STBXWW knocks on the door to pick her up. Yes, I documented that one.

Speaking of—1P or others, do you have suggestions on how to document? What type of proof is necessary? Right now I have a list on a notepad of the dates in chronological order of when she needed a sitter and why, or dates of other mishaps like the bus stop incident. Is that list sufficient, or if not, how do other people go about getting proof that is acceptable? It’s not like the bus driver provides written receipts of someone missing their pickup… and babysitters don’t give receipts… know?

The further along I get in this, the more I think I’m going to need to fight for more than 50/50 custody. I don’t know if "being a hot mess" is a problem in itself but certainly needing help for 30-50% of her days is a huge problem.

Open a new email account and document by sending emails to yourself. Keeps everything time stamped and searchable. But also check with your lawyer and see if they have some other preferred method.

I have looked into MyFamilyWizard, which cost $120 so I didn’t pull the trigger.

We use MyFamilyWizard and I don't know how beneficial it is. It's also $120 per user (so she would have to agree to pay it too).

In theory, it's recommended "for the courts" because emails can be deleted or manipulated and everything is time-stamped.

HOWEVER, I went to trial and my ex and her attorney presented half-an-email from MyFamilyWizard without a time-stamp and I was unable to find the full email message until after the trial was over (and it's possible that the judge would have ruled differently if he had seen the full email).

Furthermore, we presented text messages and regular emails to court and the judge didn't ever seem to question their legitimacy. One of my attorneys said that my judge was stupid (as in, he lacked the typical level of intelligence that you would expect of a judge) so that could have been a factor.

The actual software of MyFamilyWizard is kind of clunky also. It took me awhile to figure things out. This was problematic because my ex would put events on the calendar and I would get notifications that something had been added to the calendar and it took me awhile to figure out where the event was.

The one thing that I like about the app is its reputation for being court-approved. My ex is a master at spinning things... and I feel like the $120 per year that I spend is worth it to help keep her in line.

Hey Barcher--oddly enough I remember you from my last stint here back in 2017. Glad to see you're doing ok, but I'm reading up on your story and it does sound like you've had a rough go, but have ended in a good place.

Thanks! My story is quite the roller coaster. I am doing pretty well and still trying to get better. I am such a freaking optimist that I now look back at my ex's infidelity as a mostly good thing: (1) it led to her toxicity being out of my life, and (2) it got me to therapy, which taught me that I have some major issues that need to be resolved (key point: my actual issues are not the one that ex-wife said that I had).

Open a new email account and document by sending emails to yourself. Keeps everything time stamped and searchable. But also check with your lawyer and see if they have some other preferred method.

Keeping track of all of the B.S. is a big job. I had a gmail account and I used Google Drive to keep all pertinent files. I had a folder with all emails from my ex in it. And I was sure to *keep* everything, no matter how insignificant it appeared to be. In the end, there were a handful of emails/texts that were very important at the end that I would have deleted otherwise.

Another idea... if you can handle someone looking into very private information... would be to have someone else read it. I started dating someone a couple of months after we separated and I had my gf (now wife) read everything. She found many things that I would not have otherwise seen. Some of it was not helpful (she found strong evidence of more infidelity) but a lot of it was helpful.

One other thing that I did... which was not helpful, sadly, due to timing... was that I took videos and I put them on Youtube. My ex testified, in court, that I was a terrible father and she had to stay at home with me because she didn't feel comfortable leaving the kids with me. The actual truth was that she left our home more than 90% of the time for the entire evening when it was my designated parenting time. I kept notes but the judge believed her over me. So, in response, I would put the kids to bed and take the dog out for a walk. In doing so, I would take a short video in which I verbally announced the date, walked past a clock (to show the time), and then I walked past the garage where her car would be parked. Unfortunately for me, no one seemed to ever care that she lied about that stuff.

I've been following your posts and am sorry you're dealing with so much from your STBXWW. Your children are lucky to have you to be a stabilizing force, and I agree with other folks that have posted that you may want to consider trying to get primary custody (with visitation for your STBXWW). The general advice that it's not likely really isn't useful without discussing with an attorney. I am glad to hear you retained an attorney, as they'll be able to help you navigate this situation and hopefully ease your mind or at least give you an idea of what you can expect.

I recently came to an agreement with my STBXWH, papers are signed and I'm in the waiting period before things are signed off on by the court and everything is official, so my experience is very fresh. I documented everything during our S, including things my children said, who had the children each night and putting any significant communications in writing. Luckily, we were able to come to an agreement without my having to use all of that, but I'm glad I was prepared, as you never know what could happen when things head toward D.

Regarding communications about the kids, my STBXWH and I will be using CustodyXChange. It's not cheap (~$150/year per person), but it can do some things I think will be valuable:
1) It helps you build out the parenting plan. It has a lot of things you may be thinking about including in your parenting plan and can be used to help create it. I worked with an attorney and was able to provide the specific provisions I wanted included using this platform (things the attorney didn't mention/consider).
2) You can use it for expense reimbursement/tracking (like copays for healthcare, extracurriculars, etc.)
3) Similar to other platforms, it will track all communications.
4) Shared calendar. I expect this to be useful as I don't want to have to constantly keep track of emails/text messages about my children's schedules.

To the extent it's legal in your state, if your STBXWW is behaving inappropriately or saying things that may reflect poorly on her, you could record those conversations. Some states are one party states such that you can record conversations without the other person's knowledge as long as one of you is aware the conversation is recorded (and you're a party to the conversation). If you're in a two-party state, definitely don't do this as it's illegal.

It's been a while. I made it through Christmas, actually felt like Superdad--I did SO MUCH to make this a good holiday for my kids and it was hard but extremely satisfying. STBXWW got Christmas day from 11 AM onwards, so she got to do her own thing, and it was conflict-free.

However, I am now at a custody dilemma. This is her weekend and she's going to need babysitting Friday and Sunday nights. That's 5 of her last 6 weekend nights. She also needs babysitting for the Wednesday afterwards.

That means she needs babysitting for 6 of her 11 evenings between Dec 15th and Jan 3rd. Most of those have been for shows, but at least 1 is for a "night out." I am only aware of some of these through roundabout methods, i.e. other people telling me

One thing is clear--if this trend continues (and it has since she moved out November 12th) 50/50 custody is not going to work. I can't pay her child support to finance this band lifestyle, nights out and babysitters. It's horrible for the kids to get shuttled around and have no stability when they are with Mom.

A custody battle would be expensive, and I'm wondering if I can convince her that a 75/25 split would make more sense. I'd be thinking an "every other weekend" type of schedule only she takes Mon-Tues-Wed instead of the typical Fri-Sat-Sun. This throws her a bone by allowing her to do shows every weekend, but still gives me favorable custody and ideally very little child support. It's WAY better for the kids than being babysat so often. But obviously this would feel like "taking her kids away" to a certain extent... and could be contentious. So I'm torn between just broaching the topic to see if she's amenable, or slotting in a "right of first refusal" for babysitting that she should (in theory) have to adhere to so I know exactly how often she's having them babysat, and THEN using that to collect info and plan for the future.

I don't know. While I'm still emotional about this whole thing, concern for my kids' wellbeing has become much more intense after seeing how often she's doing this. It's unacceptable to me.

If she balks about 75/25, you may want to offer to pay child support as if it were 50/50. If she goes for that you know it's just about the money. You'll be out some, but you'll have your kids.

Hi Twice Wounded,

How are you coping with the New Year?
Did you have an update for us?

Kind Regards,
FAWH

Hi FaWH, thanks for checking in.

Things have been a roller coaster, but I'm doing ok. I had talked briefly about custody with STBXWW and it's just not worth me pushing for more than 50/50 custody now... my lawyer did note that courts don't particularly care about babysitting, even at the extremes, unless she's leaving them alone or with unqualified sitters. Generally not the case. She did float the idea of week on/week off schedule... which would be easier in many ways, but I can't imagine going a full week without my kids. Even with a dinner date in the middle.

So, I'm going back to "wait and see" mode, unfortunately. Not really the best news for me or them.

Lawyer is getting some temporary orders written up now, so the D is progressing. The costs are starting to make me nervous though.

My job is also making me nervous--it's been very tough lately and I've had trouble focusing. I'll need to look for a new job soon, as our warehouse is moving in February and my commute there will be 3+ hours, and doing that even once or twice a week is untenable. And business is poor--I'm a highly paid professional and a prime target to be let go, unfortunately. *I* think they need me but... losing my job now would be catastrophic. I haven't had the headspace to do this, but I need to start looking very soon. I need flexible hours and reasonably high pay. Not easy.

I've got post-holiday tasks starting to build up and stress me out, as I deal with single parenting and being solely responsible for the house. But I'm trying to adjust and adapt.

Last--I've dabbling in (very honest and open) internet dating. Chatted with a few, and have a date set up tomorrow night with someone I had good energy with. I'm a little nervous about going this direction but been talking through it with my counselor, who has assured me it's ok as long as I'm honest about expectations, my situation, and cautious with my feelings. It does feel like a nice bright spot though, a distraction.

Now that the holidays are over, it kind of feels like a vast expanse of time before me that's all messy, emotional, and difficult. But I'm trying not to look too far ahead so it doesn't get overwhelming.

It's just an uninformed impression, but these last few posts of yours seem positive. Y'all are acting like adults, taking care of the kids, not turning every issue into a war, etc.

Something to remember right now is that you can have "unusual" agreements as part of your divorce.

For example, my state basically has a minimum custody of 30% (as long as there is no violence towards the children) and that's the worst that you can get if you go to court and have a judge decide custody. My ex's new guy... he got divorced and I have seen his divorce agreement. They agreed to him getting 20% custody of their three children as long as he sees a therapist once per month. In exchange, he pays no child support and no alimony. Basically, his ex wanted their kids so badly that she was willing to give up money to have her kids most of the time (and, my guess is... she didn't want them around their father very much).

If you could have a normal conversation with your STBXW, maybe you could work out an unusual agreement that works for the both of you as far as your parenting time as well as the financial aspect of it?

Thanks Barcher. I guess it's positive, all things considered. I have really disconnected as much as possible, and she has accepted I don't ever want to talk to her except about kids or logistics. That makes things easier and keeps us all much more civil.

However, there is still "peripheral" chaos that gets under my skin that's hard to avoid. This weekend I went to a benefit for her cousin, who was in a bad car crash 3 months ago and has been in the ICU ever since. I'm close to him--we played on softball teams for years together. Without going into too much detail, she didn't go for various reasons, and word got back to her and she got pretty upset, talks badly to other people, and everyone gossips, etc. But in a situation like that, she doesn't actually talk to me. It's something I manage by telling other people in my orbit I don't want to hear about it. Easier said than done, because there's some part of me that still *craves* that interaction, as weird as that is... I think it's because I haven't reached full acceptance yet. Maybe some part of me hopes she'll snap back to her senses, and then... then what? I don't know.

And on that topic, I definitely have not reached full acceptance. I woke up this morning feeling discouraged, lonely, and back in the denial/disbelief stage that she could leave and replace me *so quickly* without even a hint of emotion. Just absolutely bonkers to me, and "it's just her addiction" doesn't make it feel any better. If I'd reached acceptance, none of the awful stuff she is doing right now would hurt me that much, but... I think about her and OM together all weekend, and it hurts. To say the least. I *still miss* her, and am *still jealous.*

With that all said. OM spent all weekend in her house and will be returning to his place 5 hours away today, but mountain passes might close later... possibly stranding him here. I did tell STBXWW that OM needs to not be in her house, per our agreement, when the kids return to her today. She said "it's crazy you think I'd even do that." Which is silly because she's done all kinds of stuff in the last 2 months I never thought I'd see her do. And I've heard she's counting down the days until she can introduce my kids to him. And that IS crazy, because OM still *lives with his ex-girlfriend* so how committed can she possibly think he is? And she's considering exposing my kids to his nonsense?

One of my MIL's friends heard some details yesterday, and she works for state DSHS. She said she'd like to talk to me and her gut check said I should go for full custody, and might be able to get it, and may end up with much more favorable finances than I think. But that's something I'll talk to her about later this week. Right now my lawyer is drafting up docs for a filing with 50/50 custody and the same terms STBXWW and I agree to early on. So... seems like everyone has their opinions. I had kind of set my mind on the mild 50/50 strategy recently, since we'd been civil lately. But once again I'm waffling.

Kind of a rambling post today, but that's how my head feels lately.

Do not trust that she will be amicable. She's already proven that she can't be trusted, why give her the opportunity to prove it again? She doesn't want to be drug thru the mud? In other words, she doesn't want anyone knowing why you're divorcing. What she doesn't understand is that's not her call to make. She chose to cheat so she gives up the right to have a voice in how the marriage ends. When you soak to an attorney, don't forget to point out how unfit of a parent she is and the dangers it places on the children.

I had to tell STBXWW that I hired a lawyer.

She had been talking about using a company called We the People to help us file uncontested and in a remote county--which I'd always opposed. She was getting ready to pay them $1000, so--out of courtesy--I stopped her and informed her I had an attorney and she'd be getting papers soon.

She raged, as I was afraid of. I hoped maybe me pointing out the temporary orders were *exactly what we'd already agreed to* would help smooth things, but it didn't go that way... she raged. Said she couldn't believe I went behind her back (ha, coming from a serial cheater). Said lawyers would drag things out as much as possible and it would take forever now--I think she's worried about getting her share of our assets ASAP since she doesn't really have a job right now. Also she wants to be divorced and not feel like a cheater. But she really flew off the handle and it makes me nervous she might truly come for everything... just burn it all down. I have to hope that will not be the case. Hard to fathom that my serially-cheating ex could leave me, be as cruel as possible AND try to wreck my entire life on her way out. I think that would really highlight some mental illness there, since I *know* I didn't deserve any of this treatment but she appears to be getting more and more cruel as the situation devolves. She can't really find anyone to blame except me, and her tales are getting wilder and wilder (i.e. now she's "always been unhappy!!" whereas before it was "unhappy for a while" and then more recently "unhappy for years").

In any case. I went for 2 days without hearing from her at all, which is unusual. I recorded another instance my daughter told me about, of STBXWW screwing up her morning and getting her to school almost an hour late... I've heard courts care greatly about disruption to the children's lives, even more so than babysitting. It'll be hard for me to track everything since I won't always know, but I can at least log some things. My daughter, unprompted, said "we're NEVER late!" when in my house. So that's nice.

Despite everything, I sometimes still wake up and miss her. Just no way around it. The heart is a funny thing.