SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I just have to say to the comment above, it just doesn’t matter. And I know you will know that, but I just feel the need to say it. It’s too primal of an insult, at least for me.

I can understand what you are saying but this was more in the context of without this conditions she would have turned out the same for any man.

I can see that may not matter or seem like a projection or a hypothesis. Because you deserve the things you want in your marriage.

My point is that it’s all part of whatever sickness was left behind from her sexual trauma that has not been dealt with. Those of us who were SA’d were groomed to think of sexuality in terms of transactional. We were manipulated into getting validation from our abuser, and that becomes an important source for our self worth. So some are like me, hyper-sexual in order to appear to be the "cool wife" (and you have no idea the lengths I personally went to for that). Growing up I led with my sexuality and was quite promiscuous. Not because I got anything full filling emotionally or physically out of it other than attention for the wrong reasons.

Some hyper sexual only under the parameters of a morphing of "being a good girl" transactionally to get the praise and admiration they are seeking. It’s almost a reverse Madonna complex, and under duress (whatever pain led to having the affair) in both cases the sexual aspect of the affair is an unconscious reinactment of that sick relationship with the abuser. I give this and get this emotional payoff. Because affair sex is extremely transactional.

I don’t know what other variations are out there but that has been what I have observed in the other women I had pretty deep conversations with.

To be insulted by that might be natural, but it reads to me you are taking her sexuality and making it a testimony of your desirability to her. I would suggest that is highly unlikely. It’s more that she doesn’t have a picture of what healthy desire looks like or how to achieve it.

Emotions and logic are two separate things. But what you are really logically saying is "I was willing to put up with this under the pre A conditions, but I am not willing to accept it moving forward". And I think that is a healthy thing to say and act on. I think sexual abuse can be healed enough to become sexually healthy. This is not an unreasonable request.

People keep saying the old marriage is dead. This is a very specific example of that. The expectations and acceptance you had over her are going to be different because without those needs being renegotiated and met there can’t be a new marriage built. A big part of the reason you find yourself at an impasse now.

The only thing I can tell you on your end is that it’s still a negotiation and it requires a lot of communication to get to the other side of (should you even choose to keep going). I didn’t even know what it was I needed sexually to keep that fountain of desire going. I mean, yes I could have climax and all that throughout our marriage. Mechanically everything worked fine. But for me to really crave him I needed different things than what was normal for us. But for me to even get to that point it took a while for me to even identify what those things were.

In other word I could not fix that totally in my own and comply with what he was asking of me. It took a willingness for both of us to have a period of self discovery. I couldn’t change it all just because he was asking me to.

A woman’s desire is different than her willingness to comply. That was really what I was getting at. Men often see them as one and the same.

At any rate I certainly did not intend to insult you. I see your wife’s sexuality as independent from anything having to do with you. In fact, right now I am experiencing the nearing of menopause. I adore my husband. I love for us to have intimacy. But my abilities towards certain things are not in my control nor do they have anything to do with him. We are figuring that out too. Sexuality is very complex.

That being said, I will reiterate what you need and are asking for is completely normal and justified. The new marriage should look different. And her bulking to work through it is not acceptable. However, setting an expectation with no way of negotiating how to get there may also be similar. I am on no way saying that is happening. I don’t know you or even what the problems are. I don’t need to know. I am saying what I am because we too came to an impasse that was entirely passable when we worked together. If she is the only one bulking, then of course you can’t see a path through.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:24 PM, Friday, January 19th]

Hi InkHulk, sorry I have not been around much lately. I was hoping that this was just gonna be a "nice" philosophical thread.

When have I ever had one of those?

I was noticing you were missing, was starting to worry about you

But I think something that would represent growth for me is in that time I work with a lawyer to have a D plan. Don’t have to use it, but just to really face that fear/block if nothing else.

Highly agree. I have recommended this so many times on here because I think that in the end helped in our situation. Knowing you can do whatever you want is a freedom to allow you to know what that will be.

It just feels like there is something, not even a fear, something more embedded into my understanding of my own reality that just can’t accept that this marriage could end. Like I post all this stuff, I get distracted, and something in my mind goes back to the default of "I am married to her and always will be". That’s the best I can describe it.

I don't post much but I have been following your thread. This quote speaks to me. Part of my own struggle with my wife's also multi-year affair has been my real inability to imagine a future where my marriage ended in divorce. I've spent quite a bit of time in my own therapy looking at it, and of course it goes deep into early childhood and attachment issues. No abuse in my case but lots of benign(ish) neglect coupled with frequent uprooting to different states, countries and even economic status.

I see since I read this that you're beginning in house separation. Seems like a good and hopefully healing path for you.

At any rate I certainly did not intend to insult you.

I didn’t mean that you had insulted me. What I meant to communicate was that the element of her "for him, not for me" is an insult. And as a guy who is (I’m comfortable saying) above average cerebral, there is no thinking thru of reasons or excuses that can make this livable. For us to remain husband and wife, we will need to have a healthy, enjoyable sexual life that pacifies that injury.

I 100 percent agree with that. I would not reconcile myself if the other person wasn’t willing to work on pre affair issues. I was only trying to explain how you get past the impasse, but I will give you a clue: even if you work through it there will never be a logical explanation for what has happened so far that you are willing to accept.

There is no logic applied by a desperate woman who is willing to trade sexual favors for the emotional pay off she is seeking.

Be glad if she wants what you do to be authentic. This will be her true path of desire. But if that’s genuinely what she wants she will be willing to explore and communicate more. Release your expectations of what that looks like in the beginning because if she is doing it under duress of losing her marriage then it will be transactional. Doing the things is complacency, I think what you are looking for is enthusiasm. You will never be enthusiastic or grow desire if there is no authenticity.

You are right to expect improvement. All I am trying to get at is this is a delicate thing to navigate. We had this issue on a smaller scale, and both people had to bend to get the results that both of us wanted.

Be glad if she wants what you do to be authentic. This will be her true path of desire. But if that’s genuinely what she wants she will be willing to explore and communicate more. Release your expectations of what that looks like in the beginning because if she is doing it under duress of losing her marriage then it will be transactional. Doing the things is complacency, I think what you are looking for is enthusiasm. You will never be enthusiastic or grow desire if there is no authenticity.

Very well said, I’m fully aligned.

Ink,

I’ve stayed out of your threads for some time because you weren’t happy with what I was saying. I just read your more recent posts and wanted comment. You have gone over and above time after time to try and make room for R and it saddens me that your WW can’t meet you there. The realization that if you stay you’ll never get what the AP got and you’ll be haunted by that forever just has to be crushing. Just want to wish you the best and hope you can find your way out of this pain.

I’ve stayed out of your threads for some time because you weren’t happy with what I was saying.

Well, it seems we’re both past Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Just want to wish you the best and hope you can find your way out of this pain.

Thanks for the well wishes, I appreciate it.

I admit, I am afraid of having that conversation with her, I’m tired of being vulnerable and being rejected or at least met with wildly emotionally immature responses. Just Monday, a day after I announced my withdrawl, I did find a desire in my heart to share with her a list of things that were burdening me. Her response was distant and clinical. It might have been her last chance, I’m not sure.

And I am absolutely afraid of divorce. And I need to do something with that, it could trap me in misery for life. Seems like a good IC topic.

I think I told you this a long time ago, but I think it stands repeating. I believe your wife knows how afraid of divorce you are. If you are struggling with the idea of leaving the marriage, she can sense that.

There was a point in the early days of reconciliation that my husband flipped a switch from wanting to save the marriage to taking care of himself and seeking out lawyers. That switch was authentic and it quite frankly scared the crap out of me. He had had it with me lying, minimizing, and grasping at straws vs working towards healing and helping him. He a found a strength and confidence within himself that I don’t think I had ever seen before. I believed him when he said that he could be happy without me. I believed him when he said he was finished. I don’t think it was until that moment that I understood what exactly what was at risk, what I had to lose.

I don’t think your wife really thinks or knows what is at stake either, not really at that base level. She most likely feels that you will continue to give her chances. She is giving you just enough to appease you each time you feel you have had enough.

Get right with yourself. Find your inner strength. Give yourself care. Show her that you can be just fine without her. You don’t need to decide today if you want to divorce her, but you can take your focus off of her and give it to yourself. What is it that you need to be happy on your own? Let her figure out what she wants to do. If it’s meant to be she will do the work to get there. Right now, the bare minimum is the easier route to take.

Letting go of the outcome is one of the hardest parts of recovery. It’s ok to want a certain outcome, but it should not be at the cost of your own happiness.

I don't post much but I have been following your thread. This quote speaks to me. Part of my own struggle with my wife's also multi-year affair has been my real inability to imagine a future where my marriage ended in divorce. I've spent quite a bit of time in my own therapy looking at it, and of course it goes deep into early childhood and attachment issues. No abuse in my case but lots of benign(ish) neglect coupled with frequent uprooting to different states, countries and even economic status.

Thanks for commenting. I was thinking this morning doing some journaling and visualizing if a life without my wife in it would be a healthy thing for me at this stage. What would I want to do? Where would I want to go? A week ago that thought would have felt scandalous to me, like I was being unfaithful to her (I’m serious guys, not even joking). This morning it seems like a really good idea, I think I’ll do it.

I hope for the best for you in your journey.

InkHulk,

I haven’t posted a lot, but have been reading since June.

I am a BW. Similar to your WW, I also have a history of years childhood sexual abuse (a family member) rape (neighbors), and severe physical and psychological abuse at the hands of my father. I understand trauma and its effects. I also understand that we can heal, and we can change how we act and react, and that our traumas do not define our lives.

Right now, you are experiencing the trauma of betrayal. You cannot make sense of the betrayer because her behavior isn’t logical. Based on what I have lived through and my personal experiences, I’m not surprised that she is saying she would prefer a separation to work through things.

Why? Because it allows her to not work through things.

Asking for "space" just means it allows time to shove all of that stuff back into that place where it’s all locked away. Until it isn’t again. But it buys time, anyway. Time away from those emotions, those thoughts, those nightmares, that darkness. Time where you can pretend it’s all okay.

And if she’s lucky, this time it will last a few more years than last time.

I know, because this was the story of me and my emotional world, until my husband told me it could not be this way anymore.

And the help I got finally was real help.

So whether you decide you stay together, or you heal apart and divorced, I would ask that you encourage her to get into therapy for the trauma that really helps her heal. Because despite all that she has done, as a human being she needs to get mental health care that can make a difference for her.

I don't go into the D/S forum much, but.... If D is a possibility, I recommend looking athttps://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/497843/fear-vs-reality/. It should be a good start.

If I've already cited that thread in this one, fear vs reality is an important contribution, and it bears repeating, IMO.

I think I told you this a long time ago, but I think it stands repeating. I believe your wife knows how afraid of divorce you are. If you are struggling with the idea of leaving the marriage, she can sense that.

I always smile when your name pops up.

I honestly don’t remember that particular point, but it’s entirely possible and, regardless, I think you are right.

I really think I’m at that point you describe with your husband. I feel ready to be done. If she had chosen door number 2 (ie divorce), I would not have begged and pleaded with her. I have a sense right now of what is often said around here, I’m going to be ok either way. I’m not going to get trapped in misery. I’m going to either divorce and start a new chapter with the most emotionally healthy version of me I’ve ever had, or I get to R with a partner that I genuinely want to R with. Today, this moment, I’d guess the future will be D.

I think she can sense something is different, I don’t know if she can sense the full scope of it. I don’t know if she is reading along, frankly. Maybe she will react like you did. Maybe she won’t react and stay on a self-healing path she’s already on. Maybe she will collapse under the pressure of it. I don’t know.

I know that today I am much more at peace than I have been for the last 18 months. I know that I want to heal, both from this betrayal trauma and my childhood wounds and that I’m seeing two therapists weekly to pursue that. I know that when I can put my emotional and mental energy into my work that it’s highly rewarding, much more so than this relationship. Same with investing in my kids. Or frankly just giving myself permission to rest. I’m feeling this, I’m confident that I’m not going to give it up just to be in a life sucking relationship.

If I've already cited that thread in this one, fear vs reality is an important contribution, and it bears repeating, IMO.

Thanks, Sisoon, that was helpful. I’ll say it seems particularly rosy. That may be that posters experience, I’ve certainly heard of worse outcomes post divorce. To me the point is risk: there are risks in divorcing, there are risks in staying put. Catastrophizing either side of the balance will only prevent a well thought out decision.

I think you got the point. Life is risky. Catastrophes are possible, but they're not the only possible outcome.

You probably knew that already. Sometimes it's necessary to remind oneself of what one knows.

Keep in mind that if you D there are *a lot* of great women out there, women who would make a far better partner for you than your WW--who frankly, strikes me as still not remorseful (as always). Put less politely if you asked me, my words would be 'Good Riddance!'

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:18 PM, Sunday, January 21st]

Been rocking to "Free to Decide" by The Cranberries the last few days. The acoustic version is particularly good.

Hope you are holding up okay. This stuff is so difficult. Self care!

Regardless of outcome, I absolutely recommend imagining a life without your wife and consulting a lawyer.

My husband and I are together and reconciling, but one of the very best things I did after his affair was to figure out what my life would be like without him. I didn’t go so far as to consult a lawyer, but I did a lot of reading and research about the practical aspects, as well as a lot of thinking about how I would care and be there for my kids and create a fulfilling life on my own. I had never done anything remotely like that, and it was HARD. I’ve been with this man since I was 20, and until that point had never, ever imagined life without him.

Figuring out the outline of a life without him was very freeing. It took away a lot of the amorphous fear and sense of helplessness/hopelessness. It helped me own my decision to reconcile because it felt—and still feels—like a real choice between real options.

Continue on this path; I genuinely think it’s healthy regardless of whether you ultimately reconcile or divorce.