SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ink - You’ve been here long enough that I’m sure you’ve heard someone throw around the phrase, "Your old marriage is over. R is about building a new one." What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe it in regards to your own marriage? I remember hearing it and thinking it was kind of silly because of course part of the reason I was building back the marriage was that there had been so much good, I didn’t want to throw that away. But I think I really think there is value to the concept and that it’s apt here. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle, there is no going back to the way it used to be.

So Ink, if your old marriage is really and truly over, and knowing what you know about her today and having the benefit of all the growth and learning you’ve done over the years and since d-day, ask yourself, is your wife someone you would want to build a *new* relationship with? And when I’m talking about her, I mean, the version of her sitting in front of you today. Is that good enough for you?

I’d put that question to her too, she doesn’t get to lay back and rely on the years of shared experiences and the kids and the mortgage, is she putting in the same effort that she would be with a brand new partner? Is she demonstrating she is a healthy person and the kind of person you would want to build a life with, knowing all you do?

This isn’t about holding a grudge, and it isn’t about punishing anyone or giving guilt trips. It’s about what happens next. (You don’t actually have to answer the questions, but it may be worth thinking about).

I am not religious, however I'm not saying you should think the way I do, so please keep that in mind. Also know I didn't leave my partner of 10+ years until after DDay2, so I also have some hindsight in that regard.

Marriage is a legal contract two people enter into for many reasons (love, religion, convenience, arranged, etc.). Regardless of what those reasons are, the actual purpose of Marriage, to me, is to legally commit two people to each other's assets. Nothing more. I don't feel like a married couple loves each other more or is more emotionally invested in each other than an un-married, long term couple simply because they are married.

I agree with @Bigger that instead it might be best to re-frame your question to "What is a healthy relationship?" because a healthy relationship does not require marriage, nor does a marriage make a relationship healthy.

A healthy relationship consists of two (or more, depending on the structure of the relationship) people who love, respect, challenge, uplift, and look out for one another. It should very much feel like "Us against the world." Infidelity has no place in a healthy relationship, nor does abuse of any kind. I feel like once those come to pass in a relationship, it no longer is healthy (For everyone here who has R'd, that's wonderful and I'm happy for you, keep in mind these are my own opinions based on my own experiences. I am not trying to say anyone should think the same way.)

The reason being, a healthy relationship shouldn't have intentional harm committed upon the parties within that relationship. Once I know my partner is capable of committing intentional, calculated harm upon me, it's over. And it should've been over on DDay 1 for me. But we live and learn. We all have bad days, we may get a little snappy at times with our partner, might become a little too focused on our work or our hobbies, but those things are usually unintentional and we fix them immediately when it's brought to our attention. Infidelity and abuse are intentional.

I also wanted to ask @InkHulk, you say you never felt like you were in a healthy marriage even before infidelity, so why are you thinking it can somehow change into one now? Your wife's issues shouldn't be your problem to fix. We can't fix people, we can only support those who want to fix themselves and show they want to change with immediate action. A WS may be capable of changing, but I feel like it's best to end that relationship and let them change and be better for the next person they enter into a relationship with. It just will never be the same.

Wishing you the best.

EDIT: I get you are very religious, but I agree with others who say once infidelity has occurred, you can divorce at any point because of infidelity. Especially because infidelity infects and poisons everything within the relationship. However, I think it's odd to think you can't divorce someone for any reason you so decide upon in general. Things happen, people change, things stop working. There shouldn't be shame in choosing to divorce.

[This message edited by WonderingGhost at 12:28 AM, Thursday, January 18th]

Ink, why do you think your marriage is "without infidelity"?

You misunderstood what I wrote. My marriage is utterly contaminated with infidelity, no question. My point was that if I divorce, there will be more to the decision than just infidelity. I’m quite convinced that if my wife would have done this reasonably well that we’d be on a decent path to R. So that means that I’d be divorcing because of infidelity and other things that aren’t on the list. I understand this might sound pedantic, but I can feel it as a hang up in my mind.

I generally think I agree with you on your interpretation of the Bible. Hosea is not an outsized factor on my thinking. If anything, at this point I look at the model of God as betrayed husband reconciling as an incredible, borderline miraculous act. I’m not a miracle worker, just human.

My point was that if I divorce, there will be more to the decision than just infidelity. I’m quite convinced that if my wife would have done this reasonably well that we’d be on a decent path to R. S

No. It'll be because she cheated and she demonstrated that she was not a good candidate for R, despite you offering her that chance.

Edit: I also think you're simplifying R if you think that all it takes is effort from both sides. Effort of both partners is basically a minimal bar to entry, but it's not a guarantee. If she was willing to make the effort, you'd have a better chance but you wouldn't necessarily be successful.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 12:32 AM, Thursday, January 18th]

My point was that if I divorce, there will be more to the decision than just infidelity. I’m quite convinced that if my wife would have done this reasonably well that we’d be on a decent path to R. So that means that I’d be divorcing because of infidelity and other things that aren’t on the list.

If I stab you with a rusty knife, but then I have a change of heart and drag you to the ER where you undergo emergency surgery and then undergo weeks or months of rehab (that I maybe even help you out with), but you fail to get better and we subsequently learn that there was an infection in the wound occasioned by the rusty knife, and you ultimately DIE from this infection I'm still responsible for your death. Both morally and legally, the death was occasioned by the stabbing. It doesn't matter that there may have been other things that could have prevented it.

For the record, I believe unconditional love is for children (and maybe yourself - Sisoon, I have not yet considered that but it’s making me think). Some version of unconditional love may exist in a healthy marriage but I don’t believe it’s *truly* unconditional, as in there are literally zero conditions. In my mind, uncondtional love without boundaries and safeguards is potentially dangerous. I deserve and expect to be loved (the action, not the feeling) and respected in my marriage and I will not settle for less than that due to some sense of duty I may feel as a result of some vows I said many years ago, particularly if the person I said them to has no interest in holding up their end of the bargain.

Marriage is a partnership and I was promised a partner and a teammate (literally, the words, "I will always be on your team" was an actual line from our vows). A partner has the other’s back and picks up the slack if and when the other needs a break or cannot step up as an equal and is generous with grace when the other errs, but it’s not a partnership when one person is working for the good of the team and the other is (consistently) only concerned about themself, particularly when the other partner desperately needs a hand.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 12:54 AM, Thursday, January 18th]

Haven’t had that conversation, I honestly haven’t thought of it that way. I imagine it wouldn’t go well, I think she’d accuse me of shaming her. Besides, I’m tired of searching for silver bullets. If she wants to focus 100% of her efforts on herself, that is her choice, and I will make choices with that in mind.

I think it’s a conversation that’s worth having because HOW she responds to your questions about the effort she put into her affair vs the recovery of your marriage is just as important as WHAT her response is.

Does she do what you expect her to do (blameshift and play victim)?

Or will she have a eureka moment? Will she, at least, explore these questions with her IC or discuss them further with the MC?

I think that by holding back and avoiding this really challenging subject, you’re missing out on an opportunity to observe how little or how much progress she’s making.

I want to make it clear I was not suggesting the status quo is okay or that I think she doesn’t have to work harder and fight for Ink. And I think Ink absolutely should be done if that is he is ready for that. A three year affair is a long time, add on the 18 months of being in flux I think it’s easy to understand why he would be arriving here.

My admitting that I thought conflict meant someone had to win or lose, and finding out what was authentic to me, that’s super undeveloped, right? It’s very much like the story where inks wife wrote down her flaws and then made a note she must have asked in the wrong tone. This is disfunction. This is emotional immaturity. Ot wasn’t that I didn’t want to help my husband, I honestly didn’t know how. That creating win wins came so far into my recovery timeline it’s embarrassing.

Listening to an IC and being coached to operate authentically, means that you are going to be hyper vigilant over that. That is If you care about being a better person.

A woman who feels she has to use a certain tone of voice with her husband (likely from her upbringing or distorted perception of her role) and now trying to listen to her inner voice sounds like the exact right direction to me. But for her.

But I want to be clear that I don’t necessarily think it has to be for you.

I do think the detachment is healthy for you Ink. It’s painful, yes. But I think you have to save yourself and think about what your authentic needs are. In many ways I see that as a very similar journey for both of you. They say you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. And sometimes it’s not worth saving. Detachment is your only choice. You can’t do it for both of you, and you have spent a long time trying. From this place I think you will find clarity.

No. It'll be because she cheated and she demonstrated that she was not a good candidate for R, despite you offering her that chance.

I understand and agree. I brought this up knowing it is an oddity in my thinking and trying to put to the light well enough to iron it out. I think I got it.

Edit: I also think you're simplifying R if you think that all it takes is effort from both sides. Effort of both partners is basically a minimal bar to entry, but it's not a guarantee. If she was willing to make the effort, you'd have a better chance but you wouldn't necessarily be successful.

Feels like I hit a sensitive spot here. Didn’t mean to offend. I think what I said was close enough to be helpful to me.

Didn’t mean to offend.

Not even the slightest whiff of offence taken. I just had a bunch of thoughts at once and not a lot of time to write my typical diatribe. I ended up getting more time so I added more thoughts

[This message edited by emergent8 at 3:08 AM, Thursday, January 18th]

I also wanted to ask @InkHulk, you say you never felt like you were in a healthy marriage even before infidelity, so why are you thinking it can somehow change into one now? Your wife's issues shouldn't be your problem to fix. We can't fix people, we can only support those who want to fix themselves and show they want to change with immediate action.

This is a hard-ish one to answer. I don’t want to be guilty of re-writing the marriage history to support my current narrative. We’ve enjoyed each other in ways over the years. But there has always been something…… off. And part of that came from me, it’s clear. I thought I had processed my FOO shit, but the sobbing I was doing during EMDR yesterday thinking about my parents’ divorce suggests otherwise. Reading Gottman post D-day, I can see my part in the horsemen.
The revelations about her have been monumental to me. After almost 20 years she finally acknowledges to me that she was raped in college, which all of the sudden explains so so much of our sexual disfunction. Adds to that that she thinks she may have been SA’d as a child. Reveals a much much much worse upbringing than I had ever understood. Brings to light that she’d been storing up all these resentments against me over the years, with one in particular that I’ve eluded to in the past that I deeply wronged her. She never brought it up, even when I had at times tried to talk about it.

So short story long, post d-day has brought to light SO MUCH SHIT that almost certainly explains the deep disfunction in our relationship. And I have an abiding belief that with those FINALLY brought to light that they can be addressed, and I could have a healthy relationship (and marriage!) with a woman that I love deeply. Plus I get to avoid the personal terror of divorce and not put my kids thru that.

But I’m losing faith that we’re going to be able to address them, even with them now visible. Her lying and TT’ing (when she’d read and knew it was the worst thing she could do in her circumstances), and the general level of defensiveness and non-vulnerability I’m feeling from her still is making me think it’s just not going to happen, or at least not in a timeframe I can live with.

However, I think it's odd to think you can't divorce someone for any reason you so decide upon in general. Things happen, people change, things stop working. There shouldn't be shame in choosing to divorce.

I respect that view and your right to hold to it. Thanks for commenting and sharing.

So that means that I’d be divorcing because of infidelity and other things that aren’t on the list.

I’m confused Ink. I think I’ve misread your comment because it seems you’re saying you’d be divorcing for reasons that INCLUDE adultery, but other reasons as well, and therefore you are vexed, because it’s not ONLY for reasons of adultery? That makes zero sense to me, so I must have misunderstood.

If you shoot me in the head 5 times, AND take my wallet, I’m still dead. The gunshot alone was enough to kill me. For that crime, your life/freedom ought to be forfeit. Your wife’s adultery alone was enough to kill the marriage by shattering the covenant. The additional reasons you have are NOT wrong, even though they, by themselves, might not rise to the level of permitting D, but the adultery sure as shoot was.

[This message edited by gr8ful at 3:50 PM, Thursday, January 18th]

I’m confused Ink. I think I’ve misread your comment because it seems you’re saying you’d be divorcing for reasons that INCLUDE adultery, but other reasons as well, and therefore you are vexed, because it’s not ONLY for reasons of adultery? That makes zero sense to me, so I must have misunderstood.

Makes sense you are confused, it’s a strange thought and doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. But I can go another angle with it and maybe it makes a little more sense: I’ve told her that I have forgiven her for the infidelity. In retrospect, I think it was premature, but to the best of my ability I have forgiven (given your familiarity with scripture, I’m sure you can guess why I think that is so important). I’ve begun using the language of "growing forgiveness", which I desire to do. I’ve told her that I wouldn’t divorce her for the A alone, and I think that is still true. So now I’d divorce because of lies, because of lack of intimacy, because of disrespect. I’ve got acclimated to those things over the years and my beliefs never put D on the table for them, I just needed to take it and do my best to try to improve. Actually giving myself permission to leave for those reasons FEELS strange. That is the point I’m making there.

Edit to add: that paints a pretty bleak picture of my marital history that I’ve grown used to those things. That sucks.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:03 PM, Thursday, January 18th]

IH-

Haven’t had that conversation, I honestly haven’t thought of it that way. I imagine it wouldn’t go well, I think she’d accuse me of shaming her. Besides, I’m tired of searching for silver bullets. If she wants to focus 100% of her efforts on herself, that is her choice, and I will make choices with that in mind.

You did start the thread asking what is marriage — I think part of it is — that reaching out is ALWAYS part of the deal. If you’re done reaching out to her, then you’re done. And being done is a perfectly logical conclusion at this point. However, if you’re saying that M is still important to you and your faith — both of you sitting in opposite corners waiting for the other to blink may not be the answer you’re looking for. I say this KNOWING you’ve done 99 percent of the work to save the M. Again, if you’re done I understand, if you’re NOT done, then keep reaching out.

Asking her to consider her effort in the A and comparing it to her work in R, is neither shaming her or a silver bullet fix. You’re trying to inform her perspective (which is a primary tool in therapy as well).

I’ve been abused and beaten in my childhood (ages 8-11) by a stepfather who despised me, but not sexually assaulted — and that trauma still finds a way to haunt me now and then.

If your wife is just addressing an assault (or more) — then her esteem/empowerment issues make a lot more sense. It doesn’t excuse ANY of her infidelity choices, but it does help to understand her stumbles in R. I don’t think you owe her more room to recover, but if having a healthy M again is a real goal, then she may need that extra room.

You won’t play along? I get pretty abstract when I’m sad. I do find it helps.

Fair enough.

Unconditional love to me is knowing someone’s flaws, faults and sins and loving them anyway.

Of course, there are limits and being faithful in marriage is certainly a reasonable condition.

It’s why I think anyone even attempting R is showing SOME level of unconditional love — since the original deal has been shattered, and yet, both parties are sitting there amongst the destruction, looking for ways to rebuild.

Unconditional love is more about being open hearted in one’s most important relationships than it is about a free pass to hurt one another.

For me, it’s truly more about perspective than a black and white Oxford English Dictionary definitive take.

My admitting that I thought conflict meant someone had to win or lose, and finding out what was authentic to me, that’s super undeveloped, right? It’s very much like the story where inks wife wrote down her flaws and then made a note she must have asked in the wrong tone. This is disfunction. This is emotional immaturity. Ot wasn’t that I didn’t want to help my husband, I honestly didn’t know how. That creating win wins came so far into my recovery timeline it’s embarrassing.

HikingOut, what held the two of you together in the middle of your changes?

It took me a long time to draft this, so some of my response was probably made in different, better terms by Oldwounds, but I've drafted and redrafted so much that I'll leave this as it is now....

I get pretty abstract when I’m sad. I do find it helps.

Does it really help? My bet is that it distances you from your thoughts and feelings about whatever is getting you depressed, and that prolongs the agony.

That could be projection, but ... I started therapy at a time when therapy groups were the thing. Time after time I saw change coming for group members who addressed the feelings and stopped their abstraction. Changes came a lot more slowly for group members who held to their abstracting. Need you ask how I know that?

*****

You say you think talking with your W about the effort she put into her A vs effort she puts into R will not go well.

My response: I think that is precisely the conversation you need to have. It's the quickest and possibly surest way to find out what you're up against. You're very likely to screw up R if you dodge the tough questions. R simply goes better, IMO, if you raise issues when you recognize them. R simply goes better if you do things that need to be done even though you're scared of what may happen.

Recognizing the implications of having an unremorseful WS is a big ask. Just remember you'll benefit most from recognizing reality. If your W is unremorseful, you can deal with it.

Also, what do you gain by not raising issues? Well, IMO, one of the Qs you don't have to deal with is the question, 'What do I need to do if she turns out to be a good candidate for R?'

If you truly want to R, your best bet, IMO, is to test your WS again and again. Your WS may not need to be a perfect candidate, but those tests will give you guidance about whether to R, to D, or to S.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:57 PM, Thursday, January 18th]

Does it really help? My bet is that it distances you from your thoughts and feelings about whatever is getting you depressed, and that prolongs the agony.

Fair, maybe it helps in the same way a night at the bar does, just another way to numb. I’ll consider that. But damn it, it seems like a pretty harmless way to numb if that is true, at least take the edge off and learn a thing or two.
Thank you again for your wisdom and insight.

I am not sure if I should drop off for a while or not. I certainly understand where you are emotionally that you may not want a ws perspective right now. Especially when you have bent to the point of breaking. Say the word and I can come back and check in again later.

Her lying and TT’ing (when she’d read and knew it was the worst thing she could do in her circumstances), and the general level of defensiveness and non-vulnerability I’m feeling from her still is making me think it’s just not going to happen, or at least not in a timeframe I can live with.

The timeline you can live with is a big one. Because someone can not change everything all at once at a drop of a hat. And the other person has to protect themselves from the ongoing damage, especially when it remains to be seen if they even will complete the work.

Someone who is capable of an affair for 3 years is not going to see the error of their ways all at once. What you are looking at the trickle truth it isn’t new evidence, it’s a continuation of who she already had become.

You as the bs aren’t able to process everything at once and for whatever reason this is the piece you are ready to process now. You will reach your own conclusions on that, and they will be the ones that are right for you.

She chose self preservation over what you needed. She believed she was clever enough to try and minimize the impact. It is an unrealistic expectation that someone will go from a straight up liar and compartmentalizer who spent 3 years minimizing your role in her life to someone who wants to be a redeemed sinner right out of the gate. We all start out wanting to get out of hot water but can’t see we are the flame that continues it’s boil.

That has nothing to do with your reaction to it, or what you decide to do about it. I am just saying that just because a ws reads they shouldn’t do it, because it will cause more damage doesn’t mean they believe the damage will actually occur. In fact, from the start of the affair they hid that idea from themselves. They think they can beat it. They need to because it’s better to them than the alternative, which is admitting how disgusting their behavior has been. It’s damaging yes, but it’s what they are capable of.

You have been patient and loving and so balanced.

But I also think that being balanced is a coping mechanism. (I know because it hindered me greatly finding out about my husbands affair. I tried to be logical and forgiving but it out my feelings on the back burner when I needed to be processing it)

I actually see you being willing to let the wheels come off and that is progress for you.

I did a lot of my first year as ws in safety. My husband was also balanced. His patience waned, and at 18 months he was having his own affair. You are different in that you are at a similar time frame and preparing yourself to to call it which of course is the healthier response. but this is a significant point in many marriages post infidelity and almost predictable. Not in the nature of an outcome but in the turning inward and the reality of what just happened hitting like a ton of bricks.

I also want to say that we used to have a more active ws forum. And over the first few years here, I am going to say I talked to dozens of women ws both in the forum and through private messaging. 100 percent of us were rape or SA survivors. Unwinding that takes far more than just uncovering it. We are usually taught to sweep it under the rug until it’s poisoned so many things about who we are.

Of course there are many women here who are bs, also survivors who would never cheat in a million years. So much more goes into things than that as a predictor of behaviors.

But my point for bringing it up is out of those ws more than half had sexual disfunction in their marriage and they left a husband standing there trying to understand why she gave "the good stuff" to a POS who didn’t deserve it when they had done their best to be dutiful and even overlook some of the disfunction.It’s a big hurdle to make sense of it, the usual conclusion is they didn’t inspire it in the ws. I don’t believe that to be true at all but I can see how a non-dysfunctional person might come to that conclusion.

Holding resentment consciously or unconsciously is probably the most common trait of a ws. Along with never bringing it up or bringing it up a few times and not having the skills to bring the conversation to a productive place. I know that I am the latter and the few tine I did try and discuss it, I didn’t take it to fruition I didn’t really feel worthy of what it was I was asking for. I was afraid to rock the boat and make the marriage worse. Then later went and cheated - make it make sense- it never will.

I am not bringing any of this up to say what you should do or excuse any of her behavior. I am just simply fascinated by the commonalities. The only difference that I can discern between a marriage that truly reconciles or not is the ablility for the ws to figure out a much better way of being and a bs who detaches and somehow weathers the storm.

I am not advocating that you do any of this, more I am trying to say I advocate what IC is asking of her and feel certain if she is standing in what is authentic she will figure her shit out a lot faster and more easily. Pretending to be things she is not will only continue her path of people pleasing and stuffing this garbage away as resentment. Our resentments belong to ourselves, and they are a direct result of unexpressed and often unrealistic expectations of the other person with little self awareness.

Defensiveness comes from hating that she has to answer to her actions because part of what led to this was her feelings of worthlessness and shame. She is at odds with being the villain of her own story when she spent so much time blaming you for not reading her mind. It’s a mind maze that is only solved by increasing her self awareness.

Is the defensiveness new ? I feel like it was new for me when I did it after dday. Part of it was deflection, and not wanting to be reminded of what a monster I had become. But also I didn’t know how to stand my ground in a productive manner. I was showing up for myself for the first time and clumsily trying to figure out how to hold my boundaries. Boundaries are not meant to be a barrier between you I and your spouse. They are meant to begin to understand where one person ends and the other begins.

I think the signs of a ws working on themselves can be very misconstrued by the bs. And I say that not to ease her suffering but to ease yours. You are telling yourself stories about her behaviors thinking it is about you. You have protected her, and identified with her, loved her. Those are all wonderful traits. But I do wonder when a bs does that if they aren’t internalizing some of this is a response to you or the marriage. You see the success/fail a reflection of you.

I spend a lot of time explaining the mind of a ws because I think you need to see - this person always existed. You didn’t miss the evil parts of her. Because none of them on there own were evil. What she did as a result of these traits was evil. But you didn’t miss it. You didn’t cause it. It’s not yours. If I have talked to a hundred ws, and we all say the same thing , we find those commonalities because it’s part of the human condition - but what we did with it was an abomination. So the work has to be changing our self talk, changing how we cope, changing how we advocate for ourselves, changing our view on love, on marriage. By changing those preexisting conditions we may change the future of our behaviors and actions and be better for all our relationships.

And in the beginning when we start practicing those skills we are awkward, often failing, and the bs who interprets that as a reflection of them will suffer. Ending the marriage seems like something they are doing to their family and that just isn’t true. That part belongs squarely to the ws and their choice of adultry.

If this marriage ends, it’s because she failed it a long time ago. If this marriage thrives it’s because both of you decide you want it to. But I don’t think you can decide that until you process the fears of the divorce. You need to see you will be fine without her, you haven’t had her anyway. You will find that your kids will be best with two happy parents despite how that looks. When you know you can go in either direction and be okay, the clarity of what you would rather do will appear. So I don’t see this as just abiding her timeline. You are on a timeline yourself and starting to look at doing what is needed for you.

I am not sure if I should drop off for a while or not.

Please don’t drop off, your perspective is invaluable.

I was showing up for myself for the first time and clumsily trying to figure out how to hold my boundaries. Boundaries are not meant to be a barrier between you I and your spouse. They are meant to begin to understand where one person ends and the other begins.

I look at this and she lacks emotional intelligence. She is ackward and responds in strange ways, and it’s this. She doesn’t know how to respond, she lacks the intuition. So I see now that she sees it and is working on it. But it’s like I married someone who didn’t speak the same language as me and now she’s just learning. Or I got a hockey teammate, and I played my whole life and she can’t even skate. Is it reasonable to expect that we will ever have a satisfactory partnership? You say you do. But I don’t know how to get there from here. I’ve been patient, and I’m out of patience. I’ve let go and it feels good. I don’t see a path.
Last night she semi-confronted me about my disengagement, asking me what my plan was, and I just told her I’m taking it day by day. She said it felt like a power grab by me and that she wanted some control. I told her to say everything she just had and substitute the last 20 years of our sexual history, including now. She said she felt hurt, and I acknowledged that that made sense (which is the clinical phrase I hear these days when I make a complaint). I’m not trying to blackmail her into changing, I’m just trying to not be miserable every day and this happens to help. But I’m not sad that she is experiencing this.