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My lack of healing went hand in hand with that lack of authenticity. In fact healing looked far more like finding the courage to be myself in that area. I had to put away my fear of losing him and try to create something organic between us once again.

Wow! You put into words my exact objection to MacDonald's How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. That is, R requires authenticity.

I required my W to initiate sometimes, though I didn't give her lots of opportunities. That was, to me, a sign that she desired me. The unwritten requirement was that she had to initiate because she authentically wanted sex. Luckily, as she spent a sleepless night just before I asked the critical Q on d-day, she had decided to be authentic first, and if that wasn't enough to keep me, so be it.

*****

1) I agree wholeheartedly with Bigger. M is a contract. The more explicit the contract is, the better for the parties.

2) I loved my mother, but she would have chosen someone I hated being with, even though she'd have thought she was serving my best interests.

Sisoon,

I think for some period of time the ws needs to put their spouse first. That may include things that don’t feel natural. Sure, initiating 100 percent of the time was unnatural for me. Having sex with my husband wasn’t.

But the problem with that is a ws can fool you with this. It can be manipulative. You ask for more sex, but at some point the likelihood is high that sex (or gifts or acts of service or whatever) will drop back to the norm.

I think of the ws can make things at all more comfortable for the bs especially during that first year I don’t think that is a bad place holder until the two people can work on their healing and begin reimagining their marriage.

I think too many couples just think wait and it will get better. And maybe that does happen for some. But the vast majority of those who have been effected by infidelity, there often needs to be some changes that make communication and connection improved. That connection and being in it together will drive the passion and love. Unfortunately the ws has a high likelihood of needing to make deep personal changes that make that communication and connection occur. And sometimes the bs as well. That’s why to me it always comes back to working on your individual selves, the marriage is much easier to repair with two healthy people.

However, the time that takes almost could make one feel like they are in a state of suspension. Nothing lonelier than feeling alone in the marriage. So, that’s my long winded way of saying, I am not sure it’s bad advice for recovery. For reconciling, there is deeper movement required.

OldWounds said

In that sense, my M is finally where it should have always been. Two people being kind, giving and loving, which strengthens the intimacy and friendship.

Knowing you are also a religious man, I’m curious about how this view comes out in practice in light of teachings that don’t allow for many reasons to divorce. What would you do if the mutual giving and kindness stopped and your wife went cold again? What would you advise your children? My understanding of my religious views, ones I suspect are fairly close, would not allow for divorce just on these grounds.
I’m genuinely not trying to have a religious debate here and I trust that my friend OldWounds will navigate the rules here well (assuming I haven’t already violated them). I struggle with this because while I could very much in good conscience leave the marriage BECAUSE of infidelity, I struggle with the idea of leaving AFTER infidelity BECAUSE of inadequate relationship dynamics. I hope that makes sense.

When I say that infidelity is the worse thing to ever happen to me, including losing my Dad. It's because infidelity should have never happened.

Tanner, this hit deep. Thanks for the gem.

Marriage is an island surrounded by water. There is one bridge to land that can be raised and lowered. The key is that the bridge can only move if each pulls their lever.

I like this analogy, thanks for sharing. The "pulling my lever" part is a good way of communicating loss of agency.

I think your struggle may be wrapped up in your desire for R. My reco is:

Reframe your thinking.

If I'm right, if you focus on your healing and not on the outcome, you may do yourself a gigantic favor.

I think you are right and I think that I am finally getting to a place that I can practically implement it. It’s taken so much to unravel myself from this relationship (yes, I am revisiting that whole codependency thing again, reading the book, kind of sobering). Advice to me to walk away has been as likely to succeed as to tell me to cut off my right arm. But I’m implementing a sort of 180 right now. I’m getting into EMDR to deal with that behemoth of emotion I talked about a little while back. I’m getting my mind straight, enjoying work, exercising, all the things. I feel more peaceful in it. I’ll be sad if it comes to D, but I won’t be destroyed. And if she wants to actually take me seriously one of these days, I’ll see how I feel about it.

Also, can I borrow that hat?

We still celebrate our anniversary, and I carry my ring proudly – something I don’t do with other legal contracts I have entered. But marriage is a business contract. Your selection of spouse might be based on other factors, but marrying them is simply business.

For all my thoughts on it, marriage as a boiler plate contract for people too lazy to draft their own is an interesting one that didn’t make my list

I appreciate you commenting, Bigger.

I think for some period of time the ws needs to put their spouse first. That may include things that don’t feel natural. Sure, initiating 100 percent of the time was unnatural for me. Having sex with my husband wasn’t.

But the problem with that is a ws can fool you with this. It can be manipulative. You ask for more sex, but at some point the likelihood is high that sex (or gifts or acts of service or whatever) will drop back to the norm.

Thanks for the nuanced take, HikingOut. I think R is an in between state where we need to be fluid, that the relationship isn’t going to be entirely authentic or what you hope it will be in 5 years, but at least it’s alive. I’ve been planning dates for a while now, with some degree of authenticity (as in I genuinely want to be with her) and also an element of intention, like going to the gym for the benefits that you know come with that discipline. I am growing resentful that nothing comprable is coming back my way, even when requested. It seems like she thinks she should only do what is fully authentic. Maybe that can happen in 5 years, but there is no path to acheive that without intention now. IMO.

InkHulk, I hope for a healthy, true reconciliation for you, because that seems to be what you really want.

But I think you can leave a marriage long after infidelity and it still be because of infidelity. The infidelity was what brought those inadequate relationship dynamics to light. It’s what made them relevant. It’s what makes them feel like a dealbreaker. Did you ever think of divorcing your wife prior to the infidelity? Infidelity is the breaking of a relationship, and the things you’re taking issue with are part and parcel of that infidelity package.

I never, ever, ever considered divorcing my husband before his affair. I had made a commitment. I honored it and valued it and never once looked back. Was either of us perfect? No. Was our marriage flawless? Absolutely not. But it was the life I had cleaved to. Infidelity broke the marriage. We’re doing a decent job of getting the pieces back together, but in the daylight you can see all the cracks. I might decide at some point that the brokenness is too much, and it could still be about the infidelity. I can point to all the cracks to show how the relationship is weaker and not as whole or as beautiful, but ultimately I wouldn’t be divorcing him because the cracks are ugly; I’d be divorcing him because he broke the plate, and I realized I couldn’t live with that.

[This message edited by Grieving at 3:15 AM, Tuesday, January 16th]

IH -

I struggle with this because while I could very much in good conscience leave the marriage BECAUSE of infidelity, I struggle with the idea of leaving AFTER infidelity BECAUSE of inadequate relationship dynamics. I hope that makes sense.

Absolutely makes sense.

M is officially a Sacrament where I hang out on Sundays. I did have to process what it would mean to my Faith to walk.

Infidelity, is a full break of the vows. I don’t think any of us owe a final chance.

I chose to hold up my end of the vows anyway — to be able to look myself in the eye in a mirror and know I did all I could to rebuild my M.

Forgiveness and offering grace is a whole lot tougher than it sounds, as most of us know. It took a while before my healing heart was able to catch up to what I was offering. In the same way it takes a BS to trust again, it can take a while before a WS trusts the idea that forgiveness is real too.

Part of me be able to be all in R was what is often talked about here at SI — I let go of the outcome. I knew I would do my work and it may not be enough to save the M.

What would you do if the mutual giving and kindness stopped and your wife went cold again?

As everyone in the forum knows, anything can happen. And while the rebuild is going really well, kindness is a part of the new deal. I gave a second chance I wasn’t required to give, if the M is joyless (again) then I am out. I’m not talking about a bad Thursday, I’m am talking about either one of us walling the other off or leaning into new resentments — we tried misery, it didn’t work out then either.

I also see some thoughts about authenticity here in the thread, and that was a huge part of our rebuild. It takes practice and effort for both people, which can sound strange, but it did take us some time (a few years). The aforementioned forgiveness sounded great, I meant it when I said it, but it took a LONG time to truly forgive and make my intention authentic. The TT that killed our early R momentum — that truth took a year to be the truth.

I am growing resentful that nothing comprable is coming back my way, even when requested. It seems like she thinks she should only do what is fully authentic.

Likely that is what the IC is pushing.

Herein lies the rub. Prior to the affair and through the affair recovery I didn’t even know what authentic looked like anymore. I didn’t realize I had lost touch with myself to the degree I had.

We push ourselves now to “have it all”but it’s a picture society paints for us. In our drive and ambition to achieve what we think it should look like, we ignore what it actually feels like until we lose touch with what it is that really matters and the wheels start coming off.

The best recovery a ws can make is to get real with themselves on who they are, what they want, and who they want to be. It’s easy to become at odds when you are trying to get in touch with your needs while being in debt to your partner. There is only so much bandwidth especially with all the other demands of life. . You have to want yourself back more than anything, including the marriage until you can feel stable. It’s a version letting go of the outcome, a place you are also reaching now.

When you are the bs and have already been cast aside and betrayed, that real or perceived lack of empathy or investment is brutal. It feels like another betrayal that they can’t even make the effort of giving you what you have requested after all they have done to you. The bs’s requests often boils down to needing the reassurance of love, commitment, and the ws’s earnest desire to win you back. All very natural and to be expected. Because they have done a bad job at that reassurance, then come specific requests or examples from the bs to try and help the ws.

Being authentic means she isn’t lying, through her actions or words. She is practicing integrity. And the more she does, the more you can trust what you see. It doesn’t mean that you will like what you see better. You may not see the vulnerability for her to present herself honestly in the face of possibly losing the marriage. From this, you can grow something much deeper, or decide that she isn’t who you want. Either answer will be in response to truth.

It could be that she doesn’t love you and doesn’t care and is showing you. Certainly that’s how it’s making you feel and for valid reasons.

But it could also be she is doing the work of recovering and trying to walk this new path of honesty. it’s a vulnerable thing to say:

"this is who I am, do you still want me?" Especially when we are carrying around our own shame over who we are or have become.

In having an affair, I was trying to be “seen” by the wrong person while playing a person who wasn’t me either. There was no logic utilized, only a desperate and sick floundering towards an earlier self. The lack of authenticity or being who I wanted to be was so far gone it was terrifying.

I needed to learn to be responsible for my own happiness. (We all do) It was extremely uncomfortable and all consuming at first, because so many things felt arbitrary. Turns out it wasn’t - In hindsight it was only awkwardly trying to set new boundaries. After I practiced for a while I began to understand that I can say “how about this instead?” And negotiate that ask instead.

I learned I could protect my happiness and my marriage by looking for win - win situations. Seems obvious, but it wasnt for me. I spent a lot of my life either complying or not complying. I saw conflict as someone needs to get their way. Too often I allowed him to have his way because it was easier.

Post affair I am more cognizant that I am important enough to get my way too. That’s not to say my husband had anything to do with that. It’s more to say negotiating didn’t come naturally to me, and the fears underneath prevailed. “If I don’t smile and nod then perhaps I will be less lovable.” “Careful not to rock the boat too much or it might be a problem”. These were baseless things I learned to do to survive in my house growing up and they simply went unexamined.

This all led to deep conversations on about what we are asking for and releasing some expectations on how that need be met.

Using the example surrounding sex, he told me that he feels that to be a gauge of whether you are connected and in love or not. I didn’t disagree with this premise, but what we were doing wasn’t working.

I realized I felt like it jad to look a certain way for him to be satisfied. This thwarted my feelings of connection or desire needed to give him the passion he wanted to see. We reached new understandings through a series of frustrating conversations and painful trial and error to find the win-wins. Let’s just say that was very worth it for what it is today.

You talk about planning dates. My h wanted me to plan a date once a month and a weekend trip quarterly. That was easy, I did most of that in our pre- affair marriage, I enjoy it and am good at it. However during our recovery from his affair I asked for the same and it was a disaster. It’s just not within him.

We had to discover what the need actually was. It was two fold, some of it was the principle that he required it of me so I was looking for fair. The bigger part was I needed reassurance that he wanted the marriage because I had no hope left. With that, he started doing things I liked maybe even more. Leaving me notes, looking for ways to make my day easier. I had to accept those as ways he is capable of meeting my need.

It’s hard to be at odds on things as tender as these, and the rejection reverberates all the bullshit that has already been swallowed.

Reconciliation begins to happen when both people have let go of the outcome, find clarity over what they want, and despite it all find out they want each other as much as ever anyway. Those two people have a higher probability of figuring it out because knowing you you both want it puts you on the same team and breeds cooperation.

Either she is absent, or she is showing up for the first time in a long time. I can’t tell which one. It may not matter. if you feel done you can be done. My prattling is only meant to give you ways to check in on your own perspective. I just threw a lot of spaghetti at your wall, but I have no idea what is going to stick for you. But your instincts on those things will tell you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:21 AM, Tuesday, January 16th]

You are mixing together separate concepts InkHulk

Your question is "what is marriage" when you are really asking "what’s a healthy relationship".

Wow HikingOut, everything you said is spot on. In the beginning of attempting to reconcile (I say attempt because I was on the fence for a long time) I felt like he owed me anything I asked for and was not allowed to so much as irritate me ever again over anything. When he would get on my nerves at all, I’d immediately retaliate with "how dare you?" I expected perfection, devotion, and passion from him at all times. Anything less meant he wasn’t remorseful, right? It was a catch 22 though, because when he’d try to act the way I was demanding it felt so inauthentic, because it was. I didn’t trust his actions or his words, because they weren’t coming from him, but rather the act I was demanding of him. I think I watched too many romantic Hallmark movies and was irrational and hurt enough at the time to think those stories could be real. As time went on and the pain receded to a manageable level I was able to see my husband for who he really was and what he could offer being his authentic self. Therapy helped him become a man of honesty and character, but it couldn’t change his basic personality, likes and dislikes. In other words, he didn’t turn in to Prince Charming as I expected and in some circumstances demanded. In reality, he turned into who I THOUGHT he’d been all along and that was enough for me.

You are mixing together separate concepts InkHulk

Your question is "what is marriage" when you are really asking "what’s a healthy relationship".

You know, Bigger, back 10 years ago when my wife and I were teaching a class on marriage at our church (ha, HA! you can’t make this stuff up), I would have responded that the commitment of marriage is an important part of a healthy relationship. Clearly my belief in that is shaken.

There was a quote I read recently that resonated me and, I think, is relevant to this topic. It was:

"Don't marry a man who wants a wife; marry a man who wants to be a husband."

My ex was a perfect example of someone who "wanted a wife" because he saw marriage as an arrangement for his benefit. My role as his wife was to make his life easier, more fun, and more convenient.

My husband, in contrast, "wanted to be a husband." He views marriage the way I do: as a sacred covenant, the creation of a family unit, and a commitment between 2 people to live in service to one another.

One thing that many people who cheat have in common is that they expect their spouse to meet all their personal needs and keep them entertained at all times... on top of meeting their other roles and responsibilities. These people set themselves up to feel "unfulfilled" in the marriage long before the idea of cheating ever occurs to them.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:18 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

I just threw a lot of spaghetti at your wall, but I have no idea what is going to stick for you. But your instincts on those things will tell you.

Thanks, I heard every word.

One thing that many people who cheat have in common is that they expect their spouse to meet all their personal needs and keep them entertained at all times... on top of meeting their other roles and responsibilities. These people set themselves up to feel "unfulfilled" in the marriage long before the idea of cheating ever occurs to them.

This is very real in my situation. I found a note my wife had written years ago, a list of her self perceived character defects along with what she aspired to be. At the bottom she wrote that she talked to me about it and that I told her that I couldn’t fix those things, that she had to tackle them. Her conclusion she wrote in the note is that she must have asked me with the wrong tone She explicitly expected me to fix her. Wild looking back now.

InkHulk, I hope for a healthy, true reconciliation for you, because that seems to be what you really want.

Thank you for the kind words.

But I think you can leave a marriage long after infidelity and it still be because of infidelity. The infidelity was what brought those inadequate relationship dynamics to light. It’s what made them relevant. It’s what makes them feel like a dealbreaker. Did you ever think of divorcing your wife prior to the infidelity? Infidelity is the breaking of a relationship, and the things you’re taking issue with are part and parcel of that infidelity package.

The idea of D without infidelity is almost completely foreign to me, for reasons I’ve covered. That said, during the affair I remember that I began getting so frustrated with her disinterest that the thought of divorce entered my mind. Clearly if I’ve been this hesitant to divorce post infidelity, it wasn’t going to happen then. But even the genuine consideration of the idea was a pretty big broach for me. It’s probably important for me to remember that it was really that bad in terms of dynamics and returning to that misery just can’t be allowed.

Are you telling me that short of infidelity there is NOTHING that, in your mind, would reach the level of making divorce reasonable? I assume physical abuse would maybe also be sufficient for you, but other than that, would there be any other circumstances? I promise that despite whatever tone may be coming across, I’m asking genuinely.

Are you telling me that short of infidelity there is NOTHING that, in your mind, would reach the level of making divorce reasonable? I assume physical abuse would maybe also be sufficient for you, but other than that, would there be any other circumstances? I promise that despite whatever tone may be coming across, I’m asking genuinely.

Disclaimer, what follows is not me trying to have a religious debate, just stating my own thoughts and beliefs.

My views on divorce are effectively my best understanding of the Bible, specifically what I understand Jesus and Paul say about it. There isn’t a ton of wiggle room. It’s pretty much infidelity and abandonment. And I do genuinely hear you about physical abuse, I’ve wrestled with that in the past and had some in depth discussions with people on it. It’s a source of cognitive dissonance in me.