SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

(same disclaimers, I promise this is a genuine question…)

So other than the goodness of your heart, what is the incentive to put effort into the relationship after your wedding day.?

So other than the goodness of your heart, what is the incentive to put effort into the relationship after your wedding day.?

Yeah, that’s a big part of the point I’m making. Two years ago I would have said that it was enough to assume the goodwill of my wife. About that…

What is it about the way things are going right now that is making you feel so disheartened? Is she aware of how you are feeling?

What is it about the way things are going right now that is making you feel so disheartened? Is she aware of how you are feeling?

I’d say it really is resentment building because while I have stretched for the sake of the marriage she is not reciprocating. I strongly suspect HikingOut is correct, it sounds like exactly what an IC might say, but to me it’s like she is trying to jump to the finish line without acknowledging the dumpster fire we live in and the compromises we’ll need to navigate it. So I’m hitting the fuck it button on doing what she wants and just looking out for little old me. It feels pretty good.

I think it’s also true that the 18 months wasted on lies and TT are really hurting. That time could have been used for so much more healing, and instead it just further aggravated the situation.

She knows how I feel, I’ve explicitly told her I’m done with intentionally reaching out. She’s pretty on edge, I don’t think she knows how to respond. Not my problem. (Genuinely, that feels good to say).

I’d say at the year mark I really decided that he had to start making big efforts to save the relationship. And he got the picture. I started talking about what separation would look like. I developed my own interests more. He’s stepped up big time. I still struggle with resentment and feel unsure about us. Mostly about him. I still think who the hell did I marry at times…,
I think for us to even try to move past the resentment the WS has to make genuine and big efforts. Status quo was not going to work for me. He had been irritable and snappy with me the two years prior to d day off and on too. I told him those days were done. And I don’t expect perfection. We all have bad days. But that overarching taking me for granted will never be a part of our relationship again.
As far as my view of marriage it has changed. It used to be something I was so committed to. So proud of. But I’m realizing I am only one half of that relationship. I can only do my part. I sometimes think finding a faithful partner is somewhat luck of the draw. I would have never imagined he was capable of this. I also wonder if we ever truly know a person. I am starting to come to an acceptance that yes this is him both good and bad. He has some really bad coping mechanisms and character traits. But he wants to change. I am trying to see the good and bad. I am also a Christian and would not have divorced him for his irritability towards me the last couple years. And that poor treatment was very sporadic. We had many good happy times. But for infidelity I absolutely would initiate divorce if I felt I could not get past it. If the relationship was not progressing as I wanted it to or if I just didn’t feel like he was owning the destruction he caused I don’t think I would still be trying to heal along with him. I do think that we start to see other character traits and things in our relationship that become untenable after infidelity. Two of those for me were his irritability and his drinking. So far he’s fixed both of those to the degree that I’m happy. But I think he’s fixed them because he does not want to be that type of person anymore not just for me.
It sounds like you know what you want to see in your wife. You just are not seeing it yet. I hope you find peace in this storm. You seem to be a deep thinker and to be handling this cautiously and giving your wife every chance to be who you need to reconcile. Time will tell if she can or will do that. It is so hard at that almost two year mark to decide if "this is enough". Because how much of our life can we wait for someone to be a committed spouse. This is not for the faint of heart. I have learned so much about myself but I’d go back to not being betrayed in less than a second. It has changed me in ways I don’t necessarily like. Worst two years of my life.

So other than the goodness of your heart, what is the incentive to put effort into the relationship after your wedding day.?

I’ve been thinking about this question this morning, and it shakes out another thought; the great lie of "unconditional love". It’s this ubiquitous phrase, but where on earth does it come from? I can’t derive it from my religion. It makes no sense from a purely human perspective, with Emergents simple question above showing a major issue with it. But it seems to drive this complacency within relationships, like if you love me unconditionally then you must accept anything I do. What possible sense does it make to talk about "unconditional love" and then take vows (ie conditions that if you break them, we’re done). I think the idea has more to do with Hallmark cards than any genuine religion, philosophy, or psychology. IMO.

the great lie of "unconditional love".

That's a phrase that comes from someone being naive. Everyone should have limits (conditions) to what they will tolerate. Some of it is semantics. You can love someone, but not be able to tolerate being around them and their choices.

That's a phrase that comes from someone being naive. Everyone should have limits (conditions) to what they will tolerate. Some of it is semantics. You can love someone, but not be able to tolerate being around them and their choices.

I had a friend who gave up on their faith because he decided that God wasn’t actually "unconditionally loving". It’s not just a matter of semantics in people’s minds, it’s a deeply embedded concept.
Again, I know I’m talking a lot about religious topics here, I personally can’t untangle these concepts in my own mind. Hitting some pretty deep waters on my personal values here.

And to move it away from religion, I’ve read SO many books on attachment issues, FOO problems, trauma, etc. I wasn’t keeping a tally, but I’m pretty sure that if I had a dollar for every time those books made reference to unconditional love being critical to development and mental health, I’d have a nice vacation fund. But it’s funny, from the "victim" perspective, we say we missed out on this unconditional love and that created wounds, but then our response is to put up boundaries and barriers to those that have hurt us that we wanted that unconditional love from, meaning our love to them is conditional.

I feel like I’m getting close to full deconstruction of this stuff, just burning it all down, and really truly not knowing what replaces it.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 4:24 PM, Wednesday, January 17th]

This is very real in my situation. I found a note my wife had written years ago, a list of her self perceived character defects along with what she aspired to be. At the bottom she wrote that she talked to me about it and that I told her that I couldn’t fix those things, that she had to tackle them. Her conclusion she wrote in the note is that she must have asked me with the wrong tone shocked crying She explicitly expected me to fix her. Wild looking back now.

So she couldn't be proactive about fixing herself (she expected you to do that for her) and she's not being proactive about repairing the marriage... but she was very proactive in how she pursued the OM and conducted the affair.

Based on this, I can only assume that she valued the OM much more than her own wellbeing, you, and your marriage.

But what's her explanation?

EDIT;add

I’m pretty sure that if I had a dollar for every time those books made reference to unconditional love being critical to development and mental health, I’d have a nice vacation fund.

I believe in unconditional love... but I also don't think that loving someone means I have to eliminate all my boundaries, all my expectations of them, or, for that matter, continue a relationship that's destroying me. I still loved my ex deeply, even when though I was forced leave him.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:39 PM, Wednesday, January 17th]

The idea of D without infidelity is almost completely foreign to me, for reasons I’ve covered.

My views on divorce are effectively my best understanding of the Bible, specifically what I understand Jesus and Paul say about it.

At the risk of a ban-hammer, I would point out to the moderators that OP explicitly raised the subject of Biblical authority, and on that basis, feel appropriate to contribute in context.

Ink, why do you think your marriage is "without infidelity"? It not only happened, it happened MANY times. Yes, I understand she’s not (to your knowledge) currently in any adulterous relationships, but that doesn’t change the fact that she has. That ship has sailed. There is NO "statute of limitations" regarding adultery in Scripture. Nowhere does Jesus or Paul even hint at "you have X days to decide whether to D for porneia (sexual immorality), and if you don’t choose D at that time, you lose your right to a Biblically-warranted D". There is zero Biblical command that you must remain in a M after adultery. As you know, Scripture fully condones D for both porneia and abandonment (and I believe abuse is a form of abandonment). Those who D for such reasons are fully ok to remarry (the adulterer is not, Biblically speaking).

Please understand I am not advocating for D, although I highly suspect your WW knows your codependency will keep you in the M no matter what, so why should she do much (or any) work? Her strategy is just to wait things out, knowing you will cave. After all, she’s such a prize in your world - one you cannot afford to lose (in her mind).

I just wanted you to know you have absolute permission Biblically to D your unfaithful wife, whether on DD or many years later. Biblically she’s command not only to repent, but to produce fruits of repentance. She’s not. I sure hope you haven’t been told by other Christians to be a "Hosea" and therefore stay with an adulterous wife. That was a very unique circumstance where God was teaching the nation of Israel how he felt about their unfaithfulness. Hosea was never meant to be a man’s code of conduct for when his wife steps out.

Hope this helps!

It's one thing to post about how one's religious beliefs apply to themself, as in, 'I have made my decision to _____ because that's how I interpret my religion.'

Posting that a person should adopt a specific religious belief is almost definitely a violation of the 'NO RELIGION' guideline.

** Posting as a human being **

On 'unconditional love'

Love for an infant is and pretty much needs to be unconditional. Love for oneself needs to be unconditional, too, IMO.

Love for an adult may have unconditional elements but adult love is, I think, a result of loving specific aspects of the people one chooses to love.

I follow the Transactional Analysis school of thought. When TA folks speak of 'unconditional love', they mean, I think, that we can do and be our best only if we stay in touch with everyone's innate qualities of being loving, lovable, and capable.

That does not mean loving what people do. For one example, WSs were born loving, lovable, and capable, but their actions as partners aren't loving or lovable by any means. They're capable, of course, but using one's resources to support an A is hardly admirable.

To some extent, people in relationships ignore some flaws in their partners. That looks like unconditional love. At the same time, some flaws are not ignored, which makes the love conditional.

How can love be both conditional and unconditional? I can't put it into words, but it seems obvious to me that love is both.

So she couldn't be proactive about fixing herself (she expected you to do that for her) and she's not being proactive about repairing the marriage... but she was very proactive in how she pursued the OM and conducted the affair.

Based on this, I can only assume that she valued the OM much more than her own wellbeing, you, and your marriage.

I think she let herself get carried along in it. Don’t hear me saying she wasn’t active or intentional, but it’s like the difference between binging on donuts vs making a salad, and she had the ultimate cheat day (pun intended).

How can love be both conditional and unconditional? I can't put it into words, but it seems obvious to me that love is both.

Thanks for the honesty. To me it’s a blatant contradiction and that is the single biggest thing that I’ve trained my mind to reject. Paradox, mystery, unknowns, those are all cool, they make life interesting and exciting, a natural part of being a fallible limited human. Straight, dead contradictions: I think we primarily advance our knowledge by disallowing them. Please don’t hear any criticism, I’m just saying I can’t join you there right now.
I appreciate the distinction of child vs adult love, maybe there is something to that. But even then, how many children are estranged from parents. It just feels like an ideal without basis in reality.
Man, I bet I sound really depressed today. I actually feel ok, but it seems like that must mean something broke inside.

I think she let herself get carried along in it. Don’t hear me saying she wasn’t active or intentional, but it’s like the difference between binging on donuts vs making a salad, and she had the ultimate cheat day (pun intended).

As discussed on other threads, you were originally under the impression that she was seduced by him, but as more of the truth came out, it became apparent that she very much pursued him, going so far as to insinuate herself into every aspect of life, including befriending his wife, cultivating a relationship with his kids, and putting him in contact with your daughter. And this wasn't a "cheat day"... this was 3 years.

Please know I'm not bringing these things up to be nasty, contrarian, or to cause you distress; I just think that comparing her behavior to a donut binge makes her actions seem much more impulsive and much less calculated than they really were. In fact, if we want to compare the effort and planning she put into her affair to food, Beef Wellington would be more apt.

Is your wife willing and able to put that same degree of energy and initiative into improving herself and your marriage? Is this a question she's willing to explore with her IC?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:39 PM, Wednesday, January 17th]

I’d get in on the unconditional love conversation — but I don’t think that’s helpful based on current events.

However, following up on BTB’s keen observations:

Have you discussed with Mrs. InkHulk about the incredible, Herculean effort she put into her A?

So. Much. Work.

For the AP and the A.

I can say, in the tougher days of my R, when I outlined my own wife’s work she put into her A, how much time was required to schedule, how much thought was needed to keep the deception rolling, how much emotional investment it took, etc.

And I asked her to imagine if she put HALF as much work into our M or into R.

It really hit home.

I can safely say, I haven’t had to question my wife’s effort to help me rebuild this thing since that conversation.

Hello INK. There is nothing that says love has to be a requirement to marry or be married. People can choose to be married for many reasons outside of love. Convenience, caretaking, security. I think we all get disillusioned about love after heartbreak. I think that that is what you are really experiencing. The romance and fantasy of true love being all we need. Mrs. Ink likely can put into words how she feels and how to communicate with you. I am sure you can read her better than anyone else. Maybe you see effort. Maybe you do not.
Perhaps you can have a conversation regarding what she is currently working on and how she has chosen to show your her progress or the work she has done to be a safe partner.
We are all broken by our WS and our spouses were broken people to start with. My ex wife could not handle her ex choosing to break up with her (the first time, before we started dating) only to try to make him regret his decision by screwing him for years before and after we were married.
Perhaps ask your wife what she thinks marriage is. It might be an interesting conversation considering her actions destroyed what you thought marriage was.
I know I felt like my wife was the death star, the laser the affair, and my heart was Alderaan.
Its funny in a cruel way that I know my wife would jump in front of a car to save a stranger without thinking, but also hurt me without a thought as well.
If I was to try to explain what marriage was before the affair, its a legal form of two becoming one. All debts and profits are shared as one. A partnership where two people decide to work beside one another toward success in all things.
I wont marry again. I think at this point ant relationship i have would mean more without the legal aspects holding us together. If they choose to stay then its wonderful, but they are not obligated to stay due to a lengthy legal process to breakup. So the fact that they make a choice, everyday, to continue to hold my hand while also having the freedom to walk away means alot more to me than a marriage now.

I hope you and Mrs Ink can sort this out. Im very hopeful for the both of you. I wish you the best of luck.

Please know I'm not bringing these things up to be nasty, contrarian, or to cause you distress;

I know

I just think that comparing her behavior to a donut binge makes her actions seem much more impulsive and much less calculated than they really were.

You’re right. I’m actually a little surprised that I made that analogy, there must still be a part of me minimizing. It’s painful and dissonant for me to think that she worked at it, was fully intentional. You guys can hold my feet to that fire.

In fact, if we want to compare the effort and planning she put into her affair to food, Beef Wellington would be more apt.

But only get that because we used to religiously watch Hell’s Kitchen. I had no idea what Beef Wellington nor risotto were before that show.

I’d get in on the unconditional love conversation — but I don’t think that’s helpful based on current events.

You won’t play along? I get pretty abstract when I’m sad. I do find it helps.

Have you discussed with Mrs. InkHulk about the incredible, Herculean effort she put into her A?

So. Much. Work.

For the AP and the A.

I can say, in the tougher days of my R, when I outlined my own wife’s work she put into her A, how much time was required to schedule, how much thought was needed to keep the deception rolling, how much emotional investment it took, etc.

And I asked her to imagine if she put HALF as much work into our M or into R.

It really hit home.

I can safely say, I haven’t had to question my wife’s effort to help me rebuild this thing since that conversation.

Haven’t had that conversation, I honestly haven’t thought of it that way. I imagine it wouldn’t go well, I think she’d accuse me of shaming her. Besides, I’m tired of searching for silver bullets. If she wants to focus 100% of her efforts on herself, that is her choice, and I will make choices with that in mind.