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I am sorry @InkHulk. That does not sound fun at all.

If your WW was truly sad about yesterday, the very least she should have done was reflect on how it had come to this, and acknowledge the pain YOU were experiencing. It is astounding to me that she was making this all about HER pain.

Maybe Schrodinger's cat is running around your backyard about now, you may want to leave out some milk for it.

She definitely could have handled this better, but I suspect your long marriage has developed a culture that was accepting of this behavior. Her unlearning this culture and leaning a new one acceptable for both of you will take time to learn or may not even be in her wheelhouse.

Our marriage culture allowed for many toxic behaviors. The results speak for themselves. So while I hear you about the momentum of it, that’s the whole point of all this healing and learning and therapy, to find the problems and correct them. I can see this clear as day now, I’m 99% sure she can’t. And I can’t just tell her, it will just look like me blaming her for all our problems. She has to see this for herself, and I’m not holding my breath.

Are you guys jn MC? I don’t always get in as frequently as I have in the last week so I miss details sometimes.

Glad for the time you’ve invested in me.

We have not been doing joint MC sessions for a number of weeks now. That had been intentional as both of us are doing EMDR with that counselor, so the plan was to invest in that. Which aligns with the IHS plan to work on ourselves. But I guarantee that she never envisioned the current state. I didn’t either, until I did because I ran out of gas.

Maybe Schrodinger's cat is running around your backyard about now, you may want to leave out some milk for it.

This feels like a cry for attention

I was actually kinda proud of that line man.

Seriously, a huge part of your R efforts is not just getting past your WW's affair, but also changing the dynamics of your entire marriage (thank the Lord!) I do believe--going by your posts--that you are able to get past your WW's affair per say (my take on this and on whether you should notwithstanding). I am also sensing however that even if/though you are able to get past your WW's affair, you are NOT able to go back to what your marriage was before (which I think you are 200% right in). Your WW however seems unable to grow and change in the way that you need her to. And so now you need to move on.

This is what I was sensing anyway...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:55 PM, Monday, January 29th]

She’s just not getting it.

Oh she gets it. She asked you to be vulnerable. That was an excellent step. It gave you hope..so you shared. And she quickly let you know that her feelings are more important.

She gets it just fine. Her heart isn't in it. She's saying it is. But then she pulls this shit.

IH..maybe it's you who isn't getting it?

You've been dragging her through this reconciliation attempt. She has pushed back nearly the entire time.

If she wanted to...she would.

Just as she wanted this affair..she wanted it to continue for years..so she did this,and that, to make it happen.

This isn't a woman who is incapable. Not when it's something she wants. If anything,she has shown herself to be incredibly selfish(most cheaters are). She will move mountains to get what she wants.

She claims she wants true R. Yet she isn't doing all that she can to reach that goal.

IH..maybe it's you who isn't getting it?

It has been a while since I last got my ass kicked. And I have genuinely missed you.

Clearly this thread is different than any in the past. Even the one in the wake of her lie was me in a mostly manic, panicked state. (Man, what is it about you that makes me feel like I need to prove myself?) I’m moving along. You are right that I don’t know some important things about her. I do think she is a mix of selfish and emotionally ignorant as opposed to psychotic and mastermind controlling.

Emergent, you are becoming my soul mate!

But she didn’t do either of those. She drew me out, left me hanging, and then vented on me like her feelings were my responsibility and my feelings didn’t mean shit.

You're absolutely right. By immediately launching into her own hurts, it showed you that her asking you about your feelings wasn't truly about you. It was a way to open up the conversation so HER feelings could be addressed. It bothered her not because it was something that was hurting you that she wanted to learn more about in order to comfort you, it was bothering her because your reaction to it impacted her own feelings. It's classic regret vs. remorse.

In context, this..

Got an ok response, saying in effect that she hopes someday I can be free of the pain and triggers. And that is all well and good, but what she really needed to say is that she is sorry for causing them and that she is willing to live with them.

...would be infuriating to me. It's the "I'm sorry if you feel that way" of apologies. It doesn't feel like an apology because it takes no ownership of the harm. It puts it all on you. So you're left to be responsible for your feelings (that what, she intends to just wait out?) while she wants you to also be responsible for her feelings. Good for you for being able to see the bigger picture on this. I think Hiking is absolutely spot on in this....

Time for her to put in the gas. That’s going to create big emotional reactions in her that she doesn’t have the skills yet to balance. Been there, for sure. And it’s frustrating for both people….but I will say when he stopped doing it for me I learned a lot quicker.

Please know I'm not saying any of this to dump on your wife, just to validate your frustration. I have no doubt she was hurt and that she's floundering because her prior ways to cope with hurt included placing the responsibility for her feelings at your feet. Old habits die hard. I really think your genuine detachment here is helpful for you both.

I remember when I started MC I was so frustrated for a while because we seemed to spend so much time discussing the mechanics of HOW we discussed emotionally heightened topics, at (what felt to me like) the expense of the big flashing neon light topic of the affair, but looking back our ability to talk about that stuff productively was so key to our ability to get through it all (and in some ways an explainer of how we got there in the first place). It really is a shame that MC has been so unproductive for you and that you 'wasted' as many hours as you had to dealing with some pretty basic disclosure stuff.

. I do think she is a mix of selfish and emotionally ignorant as opposed to psychotic and mastermind controlling.

Probably true.

I don’t think empathy is a skill most ws have. And it’s not something you can not have and develop quickly. However, a good litmus test is how is she with other relationships? If she is good at it in all of them but yours why?

I still find myself missing opportunities to be empathetic in some ways. I think I have a lot of the affair stuff down, maybe because I went through it both ways. I think I am a lot like the poster who said his wife is empathetic if it’s something she experienced.

But it will often dawn on me and I do go back to the person and apologize. Maybe that’s part of the human experience. There are people who are empathetic olympians. I don’t think I will ever be one of them, but I do try to be mindful about it. Mostly that means knowing some key things to say to someone in a situation I have never experienced. Instead of trying to trample my way through it. In other words, mitigate further damage.

For me, it was stunted in my youth because I was always just tuned into the weather at my house and how to dodge the frequent storms and chaos. I did the same in my marriage for the first twenty years. Tip toed around trying not to make waves, but the love feelings I had were not based on truly deep connections. Not because my husband wasn’t so very worthy of them. But partially because I didn’t feel worthy of them, partially because I had no idea what that looked like. To me, keeping the marriage peaceful was always my top priority. There is a great deal of rugsweeping and role playing that goes into that if it’s the only goal.

I personally don’t think selfishness is all bad these days. If you can hold what it is that you want, and consider what they want, then you can truly think about win-wins. If you hold no selfishness over what you want or need, then you often will self abandon when someone has to win.

I have a feeling you have some of this in you, it’s kind of fundamental in becoming co-dependent.

Navigating that is hard for both people because it’s a huge dynamic change that neither person is used to. It’s clunky to move past status quo. I agree with emergent, detachment is critical.

I get investing in EMDR. I might only recommend a service call or two for marriage counseling due to the new development of in house separation. I think it will help realign the expectations, kind of help set some ground rules to kind of keep the fray down while you focus on yourselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:15 PM, Monday, January 29th]

I remember when I started MC I was so frustrated for a while because we seemed to spend so much time discussing the mechanics of HOW we discussed emotionally heightened topics, at (what felt to me like) the expense of the big flashing neon light topic of the affair, but looking back our ability to talk about that stuff productively was so key to our ability to get through it all (and in some ways an explainer of how we got there in the first place).

I do wish we could have gotten much further on this. I can sense in myself that my own emotional awareness has expanded a great deal. I’m vastly more aware of when I am lightly and moderately heightened (like a 3 to 5 on the ten point scale). Like even today, I feel perturbed and don’t like it but in the past it would have just rode in the background without me consciously noticing. I would say in the past that if I was at that point, I hardly noted it. I’d notice if I was at a 6 or 7 but think I was ok (I wasn’t) and I wasn’t truly emotional until I hit an 8 or above. I know now that if I’m above a 3 that it will impact the conversation and it is time to call a break at a 5 (though it’s hard to get myself to do it). There is progress, but we are still not solving problems.

It really is a shame that MC has been so unproductive for you and that you 'wasted' as many hours as you had to dealing with some pretty basic disclosure stuff.

It’s a huge fucking shame, not something we could afford.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:35 PM, Monday, January 29th]

I don’t think empathy is a skill most ws have. And it’s not something you can not have and develop quickly. However, a good litmus test is how is she with other relationships? If she is good at it in all of them but yours why?

I’m not positive about all relationships. But I see her relationship with our kids and I would not describe them as empathetic. I’ve reflected on her friendships over the years, and it’s been obvious for a long time that she attracts energy vampires. I think her people pleasing chameleon nature draws them in like moths to the flame. But I don’t think that is empathy. I think she is in general a non-empathetic person.

Inkhulk, she is not making you happy. If it is her that is not getting it or if it is you that is not getting it. It is vital to know the difference. If is her, then how long are you willing to wait? I believe you said as long as there is progress in the past. But are you really wanting to be still fighting this same battle 5, 10, 15 years from now. That could happen and you can still say to yourself there has been some progress every year. It is rare for R to actually happen this long into attempting R and WS not on board. It has happened but rare. Where are you at emotionally with respect to your R?

Inkhulk, she is not making you happy.

And the second nominee for understatement of the year goes to….

If it is her that is not getting it or if it is you that is not getting it. It is vital to know the difference. If is her, then how long are you willing to wait? I believe you said as long as there is progress in the past. But are you really wanting to be still fighting this same battle 5, 10, 15 years from now. That could happen and you can still say to yourself there has been some progress every year. It is rare for R to actually happen this long into attempting R and WS not on board. It has happened but rare. Where are you at emotionally with respect to your R?

I’m emotionally dying on the vine, wrt to the relationship. I have said that in the past that I needed to see progress, and I meant it and I found some source of energy and desire in myself to fuel it. And the fuel is gone now, and I’m frustrated as all fuck at the rate of progress.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:46 PM, Monday, January 29th]

It has been a while since I last got my ass kicked. And I have genuinely missed you

I've stayed off this thread,intentionally. I am very down on reconciliation right now,and there wasn't much I could say that would help.

But, then I read through some comments. I see people,IMO, trying to get you to be ok with the (very occasional) silver(ish) lining. To be ok with crumbs,because some feel crumbs still equal progress.

My resounding thought, while reading this thread has been...damn,IH, aren't you tired of crumbs? Aren't you ready for the whole meal??

Please don't feel you need to prove yourself to me or anyone else. You're struggling with a difficult ws. It's no wonder you feel so..beat down. As you said..she takes your peace.

Also..remember..she reads this thread. She knows what you need from her. It's why she asked you to be vulnerable about the birthday thing. She knew she should,so she did. Had she responded differently, it would have shown progress. She didn't. She's going through the motions. Doing what she should,but no real need to dive deeper. It's one of the reasons I tell bs not to bring their ws here. They read, learn what they should be doing and sometimes they do it..but they lack a real desire to dig deep,and do the work.

She is moping about,because you've checked out. Someone said she's now facing the very possible end of the marriage..something you've been doing for awhile. Until recently, she never believed you weren't a sure thing. Often,when that happens,it spurs a ws to pull their head out of their ass. She's choosing not to do that.

Please know it's not because you aren't worth that work. This is a her problem.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:14 PM, Monday, January 29th]

From what you've described, every discussion and argument with your wife --and this birthday was no exception-- ultimately boils down to this:

Your wife believes that your pain, 99% of which is a result of her behavior, is yours to deal with alone... but her pain (some related to trauma from before she even met you, some as a result of her own actions) is a burden she expects you to share, if not relieve from her completely.

Is this a dynamic that you can live with for the rest of your life?

Also, what do you see as the purpose of IHS at this point?

I've stayed off this thread,intentionally. I am very down on reconciliation right now,and there wasn't much I could say that would help.

I figured. That makes sense

But, then I read through some comments. I see people,IMO, trying to get you to be ok with the (very occasional) silver(ish) lining. To be ok with crumbs,because some feel crumbs still equal progress.

Not my take, but I can see why you’d see that.

My resounding thought, while reading this thread has been...damn,IH, aren't you tired of crumbs? Aren't you ready for the whole meal??

Yeah, I really want that. Or frankly just the peace of being alone. I do.

Also..remember..she reads this thread.

I’m not sure she does. Obviously, she has the ability. I think she views it like my diary, but I’m not positive. I honestly don’t care.

She knows what you need from her. It's why she asked you to be vulnerable about the birthday thing. She knew she should,so she did. Had she responded differently, it would have shown progress. She didn't. She's going through the motions. Doing what she should,but no real need to dive deeper. It's one of the reasons I tell bs not to bring their ws here. They read, learn what they should be doing and sometimes they do it..but they lack a real desire to dig deep,and do the work.

I don’t think that is what happened here, but I hear you about the concern.

She is moping about,because you've checked out. Someone said she's now facing the very possible end of the marriage..something you've been doing for awhile. Until recently, she never believed you weren't a sure thing. Often,when that happens,it spurs a ws to pull their head out of their ass. She's choosing not to do that.

Deep personal change is so hard. I don’t need to tell you. I’ve watched my father die in his bottles. My mother has shown she would rather never speak to my brother again rather than face the pain she caused him (and me) as she navigated her divorce. My wife came by this shit honestly, and then made it her own and became dishonest. She has a total character redesign as well as growing in emotional intelligence in front of her. I’ll say it again, she is doing work, she is changing. But Dennylast isn’t wrong to ask about the timescale, that part disheartens me.

It’s a huge fucking shame, not something we could afford.

Agreed.

Also..remember..she reads this thread.

I'm also interested in how this plays into your current dynamic. For a while, it felt a bit like you were posting with your wife potentially reading this in mind (just my perception - no need to confirm/deny or explain), but you seem a little less constrained lately. Is she no longer reading or is this part of you truly letting go of the outcome here?

I see people,IMO, trying to get you to be ok with the (very occasional) silver(ish) lining. To be ok with crumbs, because some feel crumbs still equal progress.

FYI, I'm intentionally ignoring this which I can only assume is a passive aggressive dig at myself.

InkHulk, again I'll ask: what's the point of IHS?

Define what "progress" means to you. Think through what changes you would need to see in order to remain married to her and give yourself a specific time frame by which you will need to see these changes before you make a decision to either pull the plug or keep moving ahead.

To be clear, I'm not advising you to give her an ultimatum; I think you need to give yourself a light at the end of the tunnel.

Wanted to come back to this comment you made earlier in response to Stillconfused....

I think you removed a comment about your husband coming to his poor coping skills "honestly". I noted it because it’s a phrase we’ve used here at home recently. I hear sympathy in that, and I have it too for my wife. But I think that that implies a backward looking question of justice, like can we hold them fully accountable for their actions when we know they have such difficult extenuating circumstances? And that is a valid question, but I think it’s the wrong question for you and me at this stage. I think the question is, looking forward, knowing what I now know, do I believe I can have a good life with this person? No obligations, no vows, no worries about kids or money or reputations or any of that shit. Just, is this person in front me a person I would willingly choose as a life partner. Leave justice out of it, it’s too complex and we aren’t empowered to give it. Just looking to the future, is this the person for me?

You noting this felt.... significant... in terms of progress in the way you're thinking. Because you made a similar comment very recently - in this thread I think, though I cant seem to find it - about how your own wife came by all of this dysfunction honestly - and I remember it striking me at the time and wanting to gently push back on it, because most of us come by our faulty coping mechanism honestly and that doesn't make it okay, but I think you or the thread moved too quickly for me to say anything.

I think her people pleasing chameleon nature draws them in like moths to the flame. But I don’t think that is empathy. I think she is in general a non-empathetic person.

I know I have come down hard on your WW's efforts more consistently than anyone and I think this sums it up, sadly. I have come down hard because there seemed to be something that was chameleon-like about her efforts even (especially?) these past several months. She hated SI in June and then suddenly a few weeks later she felt that we are a great resource. She really seemed to know what to say to you for you to give her another chance. Then unfortunately, it appeared to be too much of the same as before.

'Meet the new boss! Same as the old boss!' (I'm not saying your WW is your boss or anything @IH, just that my username happens to be the title of the song that line came from.)

ETA I realize that it is cryptic just that you have to move on or you will stay stuck in a bad situation. Wishing you the best..

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:06 AM, Tuesday, January 30th]