SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

In my opinion, there is a huge difference between "getting it" and changing one’s behavior to reflect this new understanding. The latter is much harder and one that even I have stumbled trying to put in to practice at times. I on no way am defending your wife nor do I think you need to cut her any slack, but I am also a realist when it comes to human behavior. I think (I know I did) betrayed spouses flat out expect 100 percent perfection from their cheating spouses when we agree to attempt reconciliation. My husband was simply not allowed to hurt or disappoint me ever again. How dare he? He needed to be a mind reader. Know how I felt, why I felt that way, and it was up to him to "fix" my emotions when they were unpleasant, after all, he caused them! It wasn’t until I allowed him to be him, (not the lying cheating version, but the "new" him), accepted that he doesn’t always think, feel, or interpret situations as I do, was I able to decide if I wanted him. My made up dream version of him was always going to let me down, because well, it left no room for human imperfection and uniqueness. Also, I needed to quit blaming him for my unhappiness nor expecting him to make me happy. No one can make me happy. That’s up to me. Even now, I can be happy with him, but I can also be happy without him. Maybe it would help if rather than dwelling on your wife’s perceived or real shortcomings you think more about whether she is now or is becoming someone you want to share your life with. I know there are times I want to scratch my husband’s eyes out, but that was true before DDay. I think that’s just two imperfect humans living together. I am sure I am pain in the ass at times too. But, I accept the new version of him and the relationship we can create given our own emotional makeup’s. Maybe you haven’t made the decision one way or the other as to whether it’s version you want and perhaps it’s still being created. I was exactly where you were three years ago. We fought a lot. Well, I called it communicating. He called it arguing. 😂🤷‍♀️ almost 6 years later we are two imperfect people trying to enjoy and be kind to one another. We get it right enough to make the marriage worth it.

Any bs who expects perfection is in for a huge disappointment.

I don't think you've ever expected perfection, or anything close,IH. But you are allowed to be discouraged by her lack of progress and insight at this point.

FYI, I'm intentionally ignoring this which I can only assume is a passive aggressive dig at myself.

I thought probably me, but since we are in the same page a lot on things it’s probably both. But standing in Hellfire’s shoes, I could see how some or all of what I say might be grating to her.

However, sisoon was actually the first one to say silver lining. And I suppose looking at the positives very well can fly in the face of trying to detach for some people. So, I can see why someone also might discourage that. I think IH is exhausted by all of it and Mrs hulk better run to catch up.

I want IH to stick to his guns (tough titty!) and be less effected by her responses. I would liken it to watching a five year old throwing a fit. It’s what they are capable of doing to express themselves. It doesn’t have to ruin your day because you didn’t cause it, and it is on her to self soothe.

And for the record:

I don't think you've ever expected perfection, or anything close,IH. But you are allowed to be discouraged by her lack of progress and insight at this point.

I 100 percent agree.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:51 PM, Monday, January 29th]

I've been here awhile. I'm blunt. If I was making a dig at anyone, it wouldn't be passive aggressive. I would think some would know that about me.

It was a combination of several different posts. I see people trying to get him to accept the tiniest bit of potential progress,and keep at it. If that's what he wants, that's absolutely OK. But,on the flip side, he doesn't have a lot of people telling him it's ok not to accept it. It's ok not to be ok with a wife who,at over a year out from dday, continues to cause him pain because she either doesn't think before she speaks, or she doesn't care enough to put him first.

And,while some feel it's important to encourage him to make allowances for her, my point of view is just as important. He also needs to be told it's ok to not be unhappy and feel like he's close to being done.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:14 PM, Monday, January 29th]

It's ok not to be ok with a wife who,at over a year out from dday, continues to cause him pain

This is exactly why I am not cut out for R. The amount of time wasted to see if the person is R worthy was too much for me. Life is too short to be in limbo. I did limbo for far too many years with a WS who was not remorseful. I had hope until I didn't then found myself stuck in a living hell paralyzed with fear. Fear of leaving and fear of D. Sometimes the silver linings kept me stuck when I never should have settled for less.

And,while some feel it's important to encourage him to make allowances for her, my point of view is just as important. He also needs to be told it's ok to not be unhappy and feel like he's close to being done.

I don’t disagree with that either. I don’t actually often disagree with you. I think what makes this site great is we all come from different perspectives and experiences. I truly feel it’s helpful because I think people seeking help can often feel in their gut which things apply to them.

But I do want to point out I have said many times if he is ready to be done, be done. I don’t have any reason to talk him out of that. He said he wants to use IHS to work on the marriage so I just encourage him to detach and see that he isn’t the bad guy just because she has a reaction to that.

HikingOut, your experience and insight are amazing and have helped me many times through the years. For the record, I am in no way thinking IH should continually give his wife a pass or accept less than what he wants or even stay in his marriage. I am just trying to point out that whether his wife has grown, learned, changed, and continues to do so does not mean she will react or feel every situation the way he does or to his liking. Early on a counselor told me "your husband is changing, growing, and becoming an honest man. He will create boundaries of his own. He will have wants and needs of his own. They may not suit you. You may or may not want a life with this new version". That was hard to swallow as I somehow felt believed?, that the hurt he caused could only be forgiven if he became my version of the perfect man and it just wasn’t reality. I couldn’t crucify him for everything he did that was not to my liking. I hope this makes sense. At some point I had to see him for who he was, what he offered, and accept what he wasn’t not would ever be. I had to decide if I wanted him. That’s all. I think IH and his wife are both growing and changing. At some point I am sure they will decide if they like the new versions of each other or if it’s time to move on.

I'm blunt. If I was making a dig at anyone, it wouldn't be passive aggressive. I would think some would know that about me.

Blunt - sure. But as the unnamed "some" in question here, making vague criticisms that aren't directed at anyone in particular without attributing them to anyone or anything specific and then vaguely denying it (but not denying it) when it's pointed out is textbook passive aggressive behaviour.

He also needs to be told it's ok to not be unhappy and feel like he's close to being done.

To be clear, I agree with this entirely.

On the other side of hell, I agree with what you are saying and have said similar on this thread. I was more just trying to get the silver lining idea flushed out because both sisoon and hellfire used that phrase.

Reconciliation does take seeing the silver lining on more days than you wish. And honestly from the ws side as well. But in contrast, when you are doing 180, and in IHS, it’s very healthy for ink to reflect on what his needs are moving forward, without consideration of hers. So I was just surmising why it was being frowned upon. To me, two people willing to stand their ground will either learn they are not compatible moving forward, or they will look for the win wins. Jury is still out on which this will land. Ink has been more than patient.

Your wife believes that your pain, 99% of which is a result of her behavior, is yours to deal with alone... but her pain (some related to trauma from before she even met you, some as a result of her own actions) is a burden she expects you to share, if not relieve from her completely.

Solid take.

Is this a dynamic that you can live with for the rest of your life?

No, it is not.

Also, what do you see as the purpose of IHS at this point?

I’ll answer this later, gonna hang with my kids for a while.

Apologies in advance to InkHulk for talking about you in the 3rd person on your own thread for the next 5 paragraphs...

***

Hellfire

But,on the flip side, he doesn't have a lot of people telling him it's ok not to accept it. It's ok not to be ok with a wife who,at over a year out from dday, continues to cause him pain because she either doesn't think before she speaks, or she doesn't care enough to put him first.

I completely agree with you, Hellfire, but what I've noticed is that any time I've gotten impassioned about Inkhulk's WW's lack of effort, selfishness, and utter disinterest in his feelings (except insofar as how his feelings might make her uncomfortable and inconvenienced at any given moment), it often compels InkHulk to break out his cape and shining armor in defense of the damsel. That's not a dig at him, that's just what makes him a good and loyal husband. So if I have to temper my tone to get my message through, then that's what I'll do.

Hiking Out

I thought probably me, but since we are in the same page a lot on things it’s probably both. But standing in Hellfire’s shoes, I could see how some or all of what I say might be grating to her.

I'll just straight-up admit that I thought immediately of you as well, because there were a few comments that seemed like apologetics for the wayward... as if InkHulk should make himself comfortable with accepting less than what he wants or needs because expecting his wife to go above and beyond would be inauthentic. I'm not sure if that's a fair or accurate interpretation of what you were actually saying, though.

***

Ok, so back to you InkHulk.

As I've said many, many times in your threads, you need to define what you consider reasonable progress on your wife's part... not what she thinks is progress, not what your therapists consider progress, and not what we on SI think is progress. You also need to give yourself a timeframe that you can live with, whether that is tomorrow or several millenia from now, when octopus have evolved into the dominant intelligent life form on Earth.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:26 AM, Tuesday, January 30th]

I'm also interested in how this plays into your current dynamic. For a while, it felt a bit like you were posting with your wife potentially reading this in mind (just my perception - no need to confirm/deny or explain), but you seem a little less constrained lately. Is she no longer reading or is this part of you truly letting go of the outcome here?

I can say truthfully that I haven’t written here with my wife as the intended audience. My change in tone reflects the message of my plain words, I’m sick of this shit. I don’t think she is reading this now, though I think I wish she was. Maybe it could be something to jar her awake and avoid this coming destruction. But someday she will almost certainly read it, very possibly after it’s too late. And when that day comes, she will meet a part of me that she doesn’t interact with much at all, because she can’t handle the intensity of InkHulk (speaking of 3rd person). But I like this part of me.

InkHulk, again I'll ask: what's the point of IHS?

I see it as two fold: one, it’s time to individually heal and see if that makes some major difference and two, it gives me time to sort out my own heart and mind. Clearly, this choice is excruciating for me. Even on this thread I’ve uncovered weird thought patterns that were not serving me well, hopefully I can neutralize those. I’m taking steps I never would have before. Plus I just got super fucking fed up and wanted space, so I took it.

But, I accept the new version of him and the relationship we can create given our own emotional makeup’s. Maybe you haven’t made the decision one way or the other as to whether it’s version you want and perhaps it’s still being created.

Things aren’t good enough where they are, clearly. She seems terrified to make a mistake, and that probably makes sense, but it’s also been her MO and she needs to be brave as fuck to come thru this. She needs to stare down her demons, tell them to fuck off, be willing to go toe to toe with this guy who doesn’t back down to anyone (but will gladly negotiate and collaborate), tend reasonably to my wounds she created and overcome a mountain of trauma. I’m crying as I write that just with the pity I (still) have for her and the lack of faith that it’s going to happen.
So am I making a choice about who I see in front of me right now, or am I choosing based off someone I hope she might be in the near future? And if it’s not the second one, how would any R attempt last a week?

You know Ink, there is nothing wrong with telling her that you think you’re done. That you don’t see a reason good enough to feel that the effort she is showing is worth the pain you are feeling.
She can work on herself and ignore you while you protect yourself by getting paperwork started.
She can choose to get her butt in gear or not.
You want healthy wife, that’s wonderful. But you want a wife that cares about you at least as much as you care about her.
This entire time you have done your best to BE a husband and partner. She has made the choice to take advantage of that.
She needs to ask herself if she wants to married, and if she does she needs to see how she has driven you to this point.
She has pretty much watched you bleed out in front of her while she complains that your crying out is painful to her ears.
I don’t think you would be manipulating her by saying that you are feeling that this IHS is not working for you and she needs to look into finding somewhere else to live. Maybe seeing what life is like on her own in two different households will show her what the future is like.
It can’t be any worse than right now for you.

I think IH and his wife are both growing and changing. At some point I am sure they will decide if they like the new versions of each other or if it’s time to move on.

I don’t know what she will end up like, assuming she follows thru on this journey. Somehow RealityBlows’ story has hung in my mind as a warning, his wife mired in toxic shame, unable to break free and quit trying once he decided to D. I think she wants to change, but time will tell, if she really wants to then she will.

I honestly worry she won’t like the version of me that she is going to have to contend with. There is absolutely no chance that I’m going to push the passionate part of me back into a box for her sake. She will have to grow immensely to embrace and enjoy this side of me.
Edit to add: I also want to make my decision, not sit and wait to see what she does.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:58 AM, Tuesday, January 30th]

So if I have to temper my tone to get my message through, then that's what I'll do.

#knowyouraudience

As I've said many, many times in your threads, you need to define what you consider reasonable progress on your wife's part... not what she thinks is progress, not what your therapists consider progress, and not what we on SI think is progress. You also need to give yourself a timeframe that you can live with, whether that is tomorrow or several millenia from now, when octopus have evolved into the dominant intelligent life form on Earth.

For a question this squishy, what more do I have than my gut and my heart? Genuine question, what would you even imagine proposing as quantifiable objectives one must meet in a situation like this? And what if I gave them and she hit them and my heart wasn’t impressed? This all sounds good, BTB, but I have no idea how to practically implement it. I’m genuinely open to suggestions.

I don’t think you would be manipulating her by saying that you are feeling that this IHS is not working for you and she needs to look into finding somewhere else to live. Maybe seeing what life is like on her own in two different households will show her what the future is like.
It can’t be any worse than right now for you.

We separated this summer after the exposure of her lies. It was heartbreaking to do that to our kids. We’ve both agreed that if we separate again it’s going to be for good so that we don’t jerk our kids around. This IHS is testing that boundary already. I’m not willing to do anything further on a trial basis. It may have been good for us, but again we wasted resources needlessly that could have been useful now.

as if InkHulk should make himself comfortable with accepting less than what he wants or needs because expecting his wife to go above and beyond would be inauthentic. I'm not sure if that's a fair or accurate interpretation of what you were actually saying, though.

Sorry for T/J. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt.

It certainly isn’t my intention to be an apologist for ws behavior. It’s not behavior I condone from h, or vice versa, and I never suggest inkhulk should condone anything. I wasn’t saying he should accept less so she can be authentic.

It’s simply I have been through IC multiple times and know they reinforce being authentic as most important for some period of so the patient can get a baseline of who they are and get back in touch with their own needs.

I 100 percent think she needs to find a way of being authentic and giving IH what he needs, but to do that you first have to learn what being authentic feels like. To develop a self awareness. IH was talking about how a lot of his feelings play in the background and now he is becoming aware of them. That is what she is doing. I have advocated for the need for both of them to work on that individually. I don’t think reconciliation can even begin until both people have worked on themselves. Trying to get a good relationship out of two people who haven’t done any healing is a recipe for exhaustion.

Reconciliation is a struggle on both sides for a long time. The dynamics of the old marriage can not continue and that makes for a LOT of conflict. WS are avoidant by nature and they will repeatedly fail as they are learning to integrate what they have learned into new skills, especially under the pressure cooker of trying to save their marriage. And a bs who also has codependent tendencies will also try and fail until they can integrate what they have learned about setting boundaries.

I don’t apologize for the ws, but what some people assume they should know how to do is wishful thinking. The wires for some of that aren’t there and won’t be until it’s been practiced by someone mindfully working on it every day. That’s just the facts. But that in no way has anything to do with what the bs should do, accept, or what they deserve.

We are an anonymous forum, I personally don’t think anyone’s full picture it’s ever fully clear for us, we all add our own experiences and project them to a certain degree. Or compare them to another memorable poster. I see it as the poster’s responsibility to decipher from whatever is resonating from the varied input they are getting here. "Take what you need and leave the rest".

So it’s a waste of time and energy when other people want to tell you how you should post. I am not at all directing that at you, more thinking of many interactions I have seen lately. Embrace the differences, it gives the person needing the help a lot of hats to try on! We all genuinely want to help, we will never all agree on the best way. It’s up to the OP to decide because they have so much more data than we do.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:41 AM, Tuesday, January 30th]