SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So here is the thing.
When I first found out for the first couple of days he was mad at me and defensive, basically said that if i was nicer or if didn't treat him like he was a child he wouldn't have cheated. He also hid it from me after telling me they were just "friends"until i found a pic of them two in bed...

Since then and since I have literally cried and couldn't function for the first 2 months, he has changed. He changed after the thirdish week completely.
He expected to go to practice for his band on the third week of my discovery.

I stopped cooking dinner, i laid in bed all night while he took care of the kids, he went and got dinner, we joined bank accounts (we didn't before, weird I know). He quit his job after discovery (they worked together) and he started a new job. He has never once blamed me since then for the affair, he told me he hated himself and was running away from his insecurities and that she made him feel like he was something. He tells me he is sorry every day and has answered every excruciating question Ive had while crying. He tells me that he is disappointed that he ruined his kids life and that he ruined his marriage. He has never told me to get over it and told me he would wait the 2-5 years and show me that he will change.
He used to do practice for his band every week and he hasn't done it since (he is a hardcore music lover) hasn't picked up any music gear at all and says that he only wants to focus on being there for me. (most days I still lay in bed for hours)

Doing the work on the other hand , he is just now getting ready to start IC.
He is not making an effort on reading or anything else, he just started his new job due to his AP being at the other job and by the time he gets home we are pretty busy between the kids and my non stop need for reassurance, which I need to get better at. It is NOT productive.

The only issue that I have is that he blames social media, porn and other circumstances for his actions.
He said "getting away from social media has helped." or "quitting my job where all the men were degrading helped" I can't get him to own that he has an option to say no.
He told me that i should have told him to get a better job so he didnt feel like he was a financial failure.... like what?

The only issue that I have is that he blames social media, porn and other circumstances for his actions.
He said "getting away from social media has helped." or "quitting my job where all the men were degrading helped" I can't get him to own that he has an option to say no.
He told me that i should have told him to get a better job so he didnt feel like he was a financial failure.... like what?

So first it was your fault, for not being nicer to him and treating him like a child. Now it's social media's fault, and porn's fault, and the fault of the other men at his job. And now YOU are at fault for him feeling like a financial failure? Hmm.... Sounds like someone is not yet taking ownership of their actions. That's a whole lot of "poor me."

he told me he hated himself and was running away from his insecurities and that she made him feel like he was something.

I'd actually bet this is true to some extent. Self-loathing and shame are common amongst Waywards. That's not on you though. People who dont love and respect themselves go through their lives using external events and people to prop up their fragile egos. They need their parents to dote on them, or their boss to give them a gold star, their spouse to act like they are the sun the moon and the stars, the applause of the crowd, and the attention from the 23 year old at reception. They blame others for their mistakes because their sense of self is already so full of shame, that they literally can't bear to feel any more badly about themselves. They NEED other people, but they don't really love them because they don't understand what it would actually mean to love someone - not really at least. Like RuPaul says, "If you can't love yourself, how are you going to love anybody else?" Poeple who don't truly love and respect themselves are like buckets with a hole in them, you can keep filling them up, but they will never stay full and they will always be in search of the next thing that will fill them up.

So sorry you're here. Some great insight and advice on this thread! A few thoughts to add......hope this helps.

I do agree that he relies on me too much to be a "good" person. He says things like "you make me a better person" " I need you". "You keep me in church" I honestly feel like he wants to be a good person but deep down he’s a broken mess of a man and he puts an act on for me and the kids . He seems to blame circumstances as well for his issues

He told me that i should have told him to get a better job so he didnt feel like he was a financial failure.... like what?

Putting you in charge of his "goodness", and making you responsible for guiding just about every important choice he makes, also makes you a handy target to blame shift his poor choices onto. 'Cause if you're in charge, he's not responsible for his repeated selfish behaviors - you are. This is a no win game for you. The goal posts will always be moving. He will always find fault, there will always something to blame you for.

Porn always used to be his escape, even if it bothered me he never stopped, so yes red flags have been there the whole time.

Dear Groot, IMO it's important to view his porn abuse as a big concern EQUALLY alongside the affair and the drug abuse. Don't let the porn slip by because the A and drugs are the latest manifestations of his entitlement. Or give him a pass on porn because "men look at porn." Not so. Most men don't use porn as a habitual escape, or continue to indulge/refuse to stop - even though it bothers their wife.

Seems like when porn wasn't enough anymore it led to an affair and drugs. I feel like that is a huge leap though

Maybe not a huge leap. Maybe you're minimizing the inherent risks of habitually using porn? The way porn use insidiously dysregulates the normal functioning of the reward circuitry in the brain is frightening. If he's been abusing porn for years, it's likely his neural pathways are now hardwired to quest after the brain chemical cocktail released when he views porn. Just like drug or alcohol abusers have to use more and more substance as time passes to get the same high, habitual porn users need to up the ante over time to get that brain chemistry payoff. But with porn abuse, upping the ante means turning to more intense imagery, interacting online, going to strip joints, etc. It can get really gross and twisted as the abuse accelerates and the need for novelty and something more intense grows. Do you know what kind of stuff he's viewing? Is he spending $$ on porn? It's important to know EXACTLY what he's looking at and what $$ was spent so you understand what you're dealing with.

AND - If someone spends an inordinate amount of time with porn — could indicate that person prefers sex without intimacy. They prefer escapism over real life. Real life is messy. Real life women have demands and expectations. So much easier to fire up the laptop.

Not to excuse his choices..... If he's been viewing porn for a good while (since he was young?) it's possible porn warped his idea of what reciprocal, intimate sex with real people is like. Did he turn to the fantasy over the authentic? Yes, it's possible that, eventually, he felt real life should mirror his porn life — which could point to a problem with connection and intimacy. Pixilated gals on porn sites don’t have needs, OW made him feel like a rock-star - sounds like he didn't concern himself with her needs. In fact, he acknowledged he USED her. Porn sex with immediate easy payoff, a real life A with no "real" intimacy or connection + an ingrained selfish mindset = entitlement. He felt entitled to that A! IMO, he's got a LOT of work to do to become a better man, let alone a safe and reciprocating partner.

To close, please dig into the porn use. Yes, cocaine use is a huge red flag that must be dealt with. BUT If he's serious about doing the HARD work necessary to change his selfish mindset, addressing the role of porn in his life MUST be part of rehabilitation.

ETA:

He has always been a selfish human being since I met him and apparently I loved him anyway. Everything was about him and his goals, his dreams.

Being cynical......are there self-serving reasons he didn't share his finances with you pre D-Day? Maybe drugs? Or porn? Other $$ priorities he wanted to keep hidden? Wondering about his financial behaviors in the marriage. Is he selfish there as well? For example, are his music gear and other toys priorities over the financial needs of the family? Is his money HIS money? Wondering because his attitudes towards money could be another important tell regarding his true feelings about reciprocal marital connection and mutual intimacy.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 6:35 AM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Thanks for all the advice.
We did a session of marriage counseling last night (it was already scheduled) We discussed a lot of things.
He is getting into IC with a sex addict counselor because he admitted that he has an issue with escapism through porn which obv led to the affair. He agreed that Porn warped his idea of what sex with someone should be and he admitted that sex with his AP was less than 8 minutes at a time because all he wanted was the reward at the end. Nothing emotional and purely physical and clearly degrading. I am getting into IC for trauma related issues due to the affair and I told him last night I was absolutely done being invested in the marriage until I saw extreme changed behaviors and he agreed. The IC session answers and conversations will be brought into marriage counseling once a month to discuss his progress and mine.

We came home from counseling and he admitted to his mother what he had done to our family (which made her cry) but it really helped him realize that this can't own him, he has to make the change, he has to talk about it and he has to be held accountable for his actions. His mom was very sympathetic to me and offered to help us with our children (one has special needs). H and her cried for quite a while talking about things that led up to the affair and issues that he wants to work through (Stemming from his dad and his sexual addictions he watched growing up).
He agreed to random drug tests, the poly (the counselor and I had to help him see the importance of this) He said that is a bit extreme and I said "Oh and snorting coke and having sex in the woods with a druggie isn't?" he was always bossed around by his father as a child and over talked which Ive known for a long time. He said the poly threatened him because he felt like I was bossing him around, it wasn't the poly but taking away some of his freedom which know he agrees he can't have yet. He also has agreed to go through the last 1 year of his bank statements with me.
I have the answers to all of my questions I asked with some dates and his answers were fortunately very honest such as:

I wasn't thinking of you when I was with her.
I didn't care if I was caught because I felt clever and sly and I didn't care about your feelings due to selfishness.

He did admit to me the drugs were a plus but not the main reason he saw her, it was for the ego and the sex. I am not sure how to feel about that. He said the drugs heightened his high of the sex with her and was another form of escapism.

I laid out my demands to him as far as

1. him taking responsibility of changing
2. Doing his own work when it comes to IC
3. Reaching out and finding websites/resources to help him better understand his addiction

I told him in the mean time I was focusing on me and that is it.
He had a lot of breakdowns with crying last night after coming home from counseling , we were in crisis so we were there for two hours. He looked at our children on the couch when he came home and he buckled sobbing. He said he couldn't believe he allowed himself to jeopardize us and he felt destroyed inside by what he did to the kids, me and himself.
Do I believe he is remorseful ,yes although I think the remorse grows each day as he feels more thankful for a second chance and as he pulls himself more out of the fog, I thought he was out but I am questioning if he is still wanting to believe all the compliments and feeling she had for him were real.
Do I think he is capable of being a monster again if he doesn't get the help he needs and hold HIMSELF accountable, ABSOLUTELY.

I really appreciate your insight and really everything you all told me was true and he admitted especially how detrimental porn was to his thought process on sex with anyone. He took the intimacy completely out of it. He also admitted that they had flirted since the beginning of the year so that sexual tension blew up over time and in the mean time his porn habits increased but he never spent money or anything on it he just increased the frequency.
Sex with us over the course of the last two months has changed, there is talking, cuddling, laughing, and passion.
I am not saying it will last forever because I know what HB is and we sure are doing it but I am hoping as he stays in counseling and faces his demons it will continue.
I will not be posting in the reconciliation side anytime soon because I am not there yet. I have my boundaries and walls up for protection until he does the work which is a lot IMO. He keeps his phone open, I have his passwords and we now share a bank account so I am hoping we will eventually become a team instead of individuals trying to make it work and get by.

I also hope that now he sees it for what it is "fantasy land" he continues to hate it, as he says he does and he hates the person he was during that time.
It took a minute for him to see the lies, manipulation and that it was all fake with her. He REALLY wanted to believe she was being honest and thought he was just the king of the world. I told him that they both brought out the very worst versions of each other and if anyone put a cheating/drug using husband and father of 4 kids (1 with special needs) on a pedestal , then she had some pretty low effing standards.
It hit him hard but man it hit him.

He was also truly a man child in every way of the word. I will no longer enable him to be this way. He is an adult and I am not his mother.

I thank everyone who read all my drama and gave me advice because I am actively using it and I hope it leads me to where I need to be for myself and my kids.

Any other insight or advice would be great, as I am sure I will check in often as this is now my second home, I never wanted

Hang in there Groot, you're doing so well. It may not feel like it, but you are. You've had an emotional week. I'll bet you're exhausted.

He was also truly a man child in every way of the word. I will no longer enable him to be this way. He is an adult and I am not his mother.

Good. Write this down and remind yourself of it over and over and over again. It's easy to fall back into old habits and patterns, especially when they are so deeply engrained (and I imagine they are). Watch his actions. It's one thing to make some changes in the short term (anyone can do this), it's much harder to make those changes in the long term - for both of you.

Do I believe he is remorseful ,yes although I think the remorse grows each day as he feels more thankful for a second chance and as he pulls himself more out of the fog, I thought he was out but I am questioning if he is still wanting to believe all the compliments and feeling she had for him were real.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I think it's worth re-reading the difference on remorse and regret. NowWhat touched on it in a previous post on this thread. Regret is about him, remorse is about you. I absolutely believe that your WS is regretful right now but he is still framing it around himself (I can't believe I almost lost you, I can't believe I did something that risked my life with my kids). He might have flashes of remorse, but I don't think he's capable yet of focusing on you and your pain and destruction yet.

Thank you.
He does tell me sorry very often and tells me the fact he caused me so much pain is unbearable and he does apologize for that more than anything.
He does make a lot of things about me not himself.
I read the difference between remorse and regret and I still feel like he’s more remorseful than regretful? I do see some statements he makes that still seem centered around him sometimes such as " I can’t believe I made you lose trust in me".
Other times it’s about how he’s so hurt that my mental health is suffering . It’s as if he goes back and forth.

What stops WS from feeling full remorse?

What stops WS from feeling full remorse?

It's a topic that a lot of people much more intelligent than myself have spilt much ink on, so please don't take my words as the gospel, but my take is that it's mostly empathy (or lack a lack thereof). This can often be described as selfishness. There are various reasons why someone might be struggling with empathy that may be specific to the person. Sometimes is shame, sometimes fear, stress, stereotypes, lack of self-awareness, or just value systems. Sometimes those things are situational (we can all imagine situations in our lives where we're so stressed/burnt out that we don't have the bandwidth to care about something we normally might care about), often it's more built-in/a learned behaviour that has developed over time, sometimes in the case of narcissists, it's downright clinical.

Emergent, thank you for the clarification, it all makes sense to me a one size fits all approach doesnt work here.

I can tell you he is very much still stuck in the shame box, which is why I suggested him to tell his mom about what he did as well as I told his brother. The counselor tried to tell me not to but it was one of my demands that I would not back down from.

I know I shouldn't lead his recovery but I knew he wouldn't do it without me having him do it because of the amount of shame he had. Honestly it was more selfish for me too because I rely on his mom a lot for help with the kids on days I cant get out of bed, she needed to know the extent of the issues I was facing to be a better support for me if I need it. ( she is very supportive and always has been but I rely on her a lot more now)

If he lives in this bubble of shame and hiding, I feel like he will forget, bury it, find and escape and not realize that there are people that hold him accountable but yet still LOVE Him and want him to do well.

He has a lot of childhood issues stemming from his father, very stereotypical issues that I am sure a lot of men have.
He told me last night he felt better being able to talk about his betrayal and not feel like he needed to run and hide and escape from it.I wont say it wasn't a sobbing mess of a message, but he did it. I am hoping as time goes on he becomes more remorseful if he can get himself out of the shame box. I am sure there are other things holding back his true remorse that he will have to fix and battle on his own.

I know it’s hard when you are conditioned to focus on his feelings. So him obviously feeling bad really seems like remorse. I made this same error. So here’s what to think about/focus on.

When he says:

I can’t believe that I almost lost you. (Not, tell me about what this experience has been for you. It’s important that I hear how you honestly feel about it and me.)
I hate what I’ve done to you and the kids.
I feel destroyed by what I did to you and the kids. (Not, I want to understand all of the ways that I’ve hurt you and the kids. Tell me about that.)
It hurts me so much that your mental health is suffering. (Not, tell me about how you’re suffering and how I can help.)

And similar things, he is always leading with his feelings, what HE almost lost, how HE feels bad. This is regret.

Remorse is when he actively invites you to express YOUR feelings and listens without going into a wailing shame-cycle that brings everything back to how bad HE feels about his actions and his situation. This is a pattern for him too. The shame cycle is one of the most singularly destructive traits to being able to stop with selfish behavior. I feel like shit about myself and what I’ve done. I’m horrible. I need to feel better. I can’t feel like a horrible person all the time, so I need someone or something to make me feel less horrible.

Remorse is when he looks at what he has done to you and his kids (NOT the fact that what he did almost cost HIM his wife and family) and works to understand the trauma that you’re all going through and how he can become a better spouse and father to support you all in the trauma that he caused. Again, it’s not wailing over how horrible he is and what horrible things he’s done and how horribly he treated you all and how horrible he feels.

Again, it’s actions. It’s behavior. It’s not a lot of public crying and wailing. In fact, his pain is something that HE really needs to start learning to deal with in constructive ways on his own. Expressing his pain should not be something that is done in your or the kids’ presence right now. He should be getting IC and seeking support from others to deal with that. Because let’s be real: in the past, he has used (not saying consciously, but he has definitely used it) his sadness, his insecurities, his feeling bad, to manipulate others into feeling sorry for him and supporting him. Being a victim and being dejected are very well-worn paths for wayward behavior, for blameshifting (nothing is ever their fault), and excusing the need to soothe through negative behaviors. And whatever happens with your marriage, he will still be a father. He NEEDS to grow up and learn how to manage and feel and soothe his own feelings by himself without needing a mom or drugs or an A or some ego pumping from someone else. That is CRITICAL to his own growth and recovery and it is a journey he has to take alone.

So while I’m here, I’ll point out that his mind is very set in these patterns (again, not saying this is deliberate or malicious—it’s just part of the real work that he needs to be doing with a good counselor, NOT WITH YOU). It’s part of how he got himself in this situation. He’s not at all unique in this. So his mind goes constantly to helping absolve him. He’s a victim. Of his dad. Of his A partner. Of his lack of ambition and drive. Of unfair people. Of life. Of you. Of circumstance. There are so many little side indicators of him gently giving himself a little pass by blaming others. Watch for things like suggesting that she tempted him with drugs or sex or most likely, with telling him how big and strong and sexy and amazing he is. Watch for the easy out of tying everything back to his dad. My WH had horrible parents too (and for that matter, mine weren’t all that great), but he’s a grown ass man now. At some point, everything he does can’t be someone else’s fault.

What I hear is very similar to my WH: a combined lamenting of the horrible, horrible situation that he’s created along with a very childish and immature feeling that someone this was all just beyond his ability to control because he’s just a child, after all. This grown up stuff just got away from him. It honestly does represent a very childish outlook in which he has no impulse control. No ability to see the possible consequences on the road ahead, and then an immediate, panicked horror at the results combined with a sort of massive confusion about how this possibly could have happened. Does that sound at all familiar? It is exactly what happens when selfishness and thoughtlessness become habitual to the degree that all of the self monitors and self inhibitors that should ring alarm bells when you think about doing something dangerous or horrible are completely off. I remember feeling when I found out about my WH’s A and confronted him, he acted kind of like someone waking up (but not REALLY waking up) from a coma in that he seemed so very shocked and surprised.

I’m sorry to go on so long here. You’re doing great. Keep watching. The only thing I caution is that—in these early days—try to avoid thinking he has reached THE turning point or that you really have the story now or that you understand the reasons or that he’s REALLY remorseful. You are barely set out on this journey—both of you. There is so much very difficult terrain ahead if he is really going to become a real adult person finally. Take each revelation for what it’s worth and give yourself time to process it. Avoid thinking that you’ve arrived at, well, anything really. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself and give yourself time to work through each thing.

Sending hugs of strength and support.

You are very correct!

I do know that we have a very very very long road ahead and we will have many setbacks and I am prepared for that (as much as I can be). You are right, I am an over thinker and I am trying to be a problem solver here and my patience has always been thin.
I have to get way better at taking it one day at a time, I am probably the worst at this.
I also do believe I need to step back from the h and let him work through his issues without being in his ear, I will not say for a moment I am to blame BUT I do make him tell me all the time hes a horrible monster for what he did and that he needs to fix me and he was a complete piece of trash all the time along with other horrible things because I am hurting , I am sure this doesn't help our process, but letting go and watching him do what he needs to do is so hard.

I feel like inside deep down I want him to drown in shame without really knowing that is what I am doing... subconsciously I want him to hate himself for what he did so my words are like daggers all day.... sigh.

I will work on this part of me because i feel like if I don't it will hold us both back.

Blah this is so hard, thanks for all the words of encouragement!

Someone who is remorseful won’t look at polygraphs, checking his phone, etc as you "policing" him.
He will look at it like a recovering addict. They want to prove themselves with negative drug screens.

It’s like being brilliant and wanting to take tests to prove it.

People hide from accountability when they are doing bad things.

I know you have four littles, but I have concerns that the cocaine would be sooo hard for me to get past. And then add in the affair. He should be thankful for a chance to prove he is innocent, and if he pulling drama about the poly- read the writing on the wall. There is likely more…..

He sounds like a man child. Consider checking into Liberating Motherhood, a motherhood blog by Zawn Villines. Some of her (free) writing might be helpful to you. It might help you feel stronger.

H has always had a problem with authority whether it be a boss, a teacher, whatever it may be. He agreed to the poly and random drug tests , we have four littles and the cost of it being pretty pricey as well which I can get too. It didn’t take him long to realize that he owed it to me and that he doesn’t have rights to have freedoms at the moment but how are are as a person in general comes into play here too I think. He’s still a little defensive that I don’t take some of his answers for the truth because he feels like he knows he’s telling the truth , he is starting to see that I have no reason to believe a damn thing.

I am by no means saying that there isn’t more to be found. I’m sure there is. The trickle truth is killing me and he keeps forgetting details that I find important. Like how long he saw her or that he cuddled with her instead of just had sex. I mean I don’t know how those are so hard to forget but he said it’s all becoming a blur and he’s trying to block it all out.

It’s all super frustrating and it’s hard to believe a damn thing.
Oddly enough the cocaine isn’t my main concern since he is willing to do random drug tests and had no issues with it at all. I’m not saying it’s not an issue he did to but I really don’t feel like this is something he would do ongoing. He started a new job that does random drug tests too.
It’s the lying that is killing me.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 9:01 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Of course it’s the lying.

People don’t lie to someone they care about.

And I’m saying that from a remaining married viewpoint.

If he cared, he wouldn’t lie.

After trying to reconcile for many years, (>10 now), I’ve given up fixing him. It’s not my job. He can either do the right thing and I won’t fire his ass from our marriage, or he can get the hell out.

Choices.

Don’t get me wrong. This whole thing has sucked 99% of the time. It’s been hell dealing with a man child at times.

His lies feel like a little boy who stole an apple and now he’s ashamed and looking at the ground.

But it’s not. It’s something way more nefarious. It’s the lack of ability to think beyond their own skins.

Who cares what he does or what happens to him. Strengthen yourself. Work on this time to make yourself a badass so that when he becomes a loser again you will be able to compensate and be strong.

I don’t think it’s a matter of if. It’s a matter of when. And you can leave at a later date when that happens.

Until then, bide your time wisely and get yourself shored up to the peak of performance. Mature your babies so they can fly, and start sewing some bitch boots for yourself so you will have them when you need them.

You don’t have to leave. You can stay until it gets worse. Or maybe it won’t, and that would be great.

Sometimes reconciliation is not yes or no or black or white.

Sometimes we stay FOR NOW. And that’s ok. And a moving target.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 10:47 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

I don’t know how to know when I have the full truth. In my gut some things still don’t make sense. I know we have a long way to go until I get to a place where anything makes “sense”.

The waiting game is hell.

Inhumane if you ask me.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 9:07 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Spoiler alert - he’s always lying. He’s prolly lying to himself, too, so it’s not personal.

WHEN THINGS FEELS WEIRD, they are weird.

I don’t know how to know when I have the full truth. In my gut some things still don’t make sense. I know we have a long way to go until I get to a place where anything makes "sense".

Let's say....and hope....for the moment that you both are heading on the right path. This is going to be a learning process for you BOTH. I wish I could give specific points/markers about if he's being fully honest, but the best way I can explain it is that, over time, you will just know.

It is so hard to rebuild trust. Even if you wanted to trust him right away, your mind(and gut) will not let it happen. It is the consistent trustworthy actions he makes that will slowly start to fill the trust-o-meter---which right now, is about -1000. I tried for quite some time to trust my WW, but that uneasy feeling was there. How couldn't it be? She had done the unimaginable, and the protective walls are up and on high alert. But she kept plugging along, doing the right things, and NOT reverting back to old behaviors. Over time, the distrust started to dissipate, and things started *feeling* right again. In my case, it was at least 3+ years until the trust felt unforced. At 10+ years out, trust is like 99 percent....I keep that one percent as there is no more blind trust....which in my opinion, is not a bad thing.

A couple (or a dozen) points:

There are positives in his actions. Like he seems to acknowledge that the issues are his, and he seems to be reaching for tools to deal with the problems. The big issue I see however is that he seems to have a tendency to assign the root of the problems – the cause – to actions by others.
He blames social media, his work, work-environment, possible SA, you… basically everything other than himself – for his decision to cheat.
What I see sadly lacking in him is accountability.

Look – Last time I went to a strip-club I was approached by several beautiful and curvaceous young women offering me a plethora of sexually-oriented services. Yet I could stay at that club for the time I needed while turning down each and every one of the offers. This despite me 100% being able to "blame" my visit to the club on my wife! She had asked me to chaperone her alcoholic and single younger brother who frequented these clubs when visiting our city, and had a tendency to wake up in an alley without his watch and wallet. My wife knew we well enough and had enough trust in me AND I knew myself well enough to be able to enter that level of temptation – that walk in the desert – without succumbing to the forbidden fruit.

To "affair-proof" himself (and I truly think none of us can claim to be 100% "affair-proof") he needs to acknowledge his accountability from A to Z – including the crossing of the border where he DECIDED to start an affair.

He can’t blame his upbringing, the other men, lack of sex, defiance against the "system" or ANYTHING. It’s all totally 100% on him.

The Sexual Addiction issue…
Be careful here… I want to stress that I do think SA is a real issue. But…
Sex addiction is not recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5), the reference guide for mental illnesses published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA). It’s not officially recognized as an illness worth a specific classification.
But then… Alcoholism wasn’t either until surprisingly late (1960-70 if I recall correctly). We no longer doubt that as a real illness.

I am not suggesting he isn’t a SA, and like I started with I do think it’s a real issue. But… I fear the same reaction from people as when alcoholism and drug addiction was acknowledged as a physical and mental illness, rather than a character weakness.

If you have a tendency for blame-shifting – as your husband has – then it’s a lot easier to tell the world "I had an affair because I have an illness. Now I’m treating that illness and therefore I won’t do that again. You can’t really blame me, anymore than you would blame a person for getting cancer or some other illness" than having to say "I had an affair because of choices and decisions I took that I realize were wrong".

Plus… If he has SA he needs to get "treatment" for SA. If it’s an addiction then that’s not two pills a day for three months, or physiotherapy or anything like that. It’s a LIFELONG change in daily life, with regular (like 2-7 x a week for the first years) SA meetings, therapy, ongoing evaluation, reevaluation… For those dealing with addiction this form of treatment is very effective if adhered to. However, it’s so taxing and hard that the relapse rate is probably over 80%, with those eventually succeeding probably being in their third or fourth or fifth cycle/attempt.
However – IF his infidelity and blame-deflections are NOT due to SA then the above intense and radical treatment is about as effective as chemotherapy would be to heal the flu. It’s the wrong treatment for the wrong illness.

So be careful about the SA and using it as a catch-all, cure-all. Has to be diagnosed by a certified professional, preferably by a skeptical one.

Then the poly…
I think both of you might misunderstand the poly and it’s purpose…

It does NOT give you the truth.
It’s not a lie-detector, but more of a honesty-detector.
If your husband thinks 2 + 2 = 5, then if asked if 2 + 2 = 4 he would pass if he answered "no". It measures his honesty – not the truth.

It’s accuracy is based on two things: 100% of it’s accuracy is based on the equipment itself. If the operator you select pulls out some antiquated and home-made DIY set of wires and taped patches… It wont work.
The second factor is that the accuracy is 100% based on the OPERATOR. Notice that the total of the two factors is 200%... That’s because even with the best equipment the wrong operator will fail, and even with less-than perfect equipment the good operator will get a result. That’s why you select an operator that can refer to recent work for law-enforcement, corporates and the legal system. That should ensure both the ability of the operator and the equipment.

The operator will give you something like 3-5 questions or issues you want answered. He will probably word one of those issues into 2 questions as part of his reliability calculations.
The questions will be factual rather than emotional and answerable with yes or no.

It costs… Its not something you can do once a week while you are learning the truth. IMHO it should be used as a milestone to mark or define a certain moment in the decision of if you can R or not.

Basically – You should let your husband know that the truth is key. Anything he keeps hidden or avoids answering will eventually come to light, and that discovering NOW that the sex lasted for hours rather than the minimizing 8 minutes will cause IMMENSELY less damage than discovering maybe a year from now – when you two have been working hard at reconciling – that he purposely didn’t tell you they kissed or held hands or whatever.
You can offer him a safe environment to tell you the truth. Like you can tell him that for the next 4 weeks you commit to reconciling no matter what he tells you. That your instant reaction will not be to kick him out and file. That he shares the truth at the next MC session or can write it down or that he answers questions you write down or whatever. The method is not key, the truth is.
At the end of that amnesty-period you will probably be demanding a poly. He can decide now if he wants to build the future relationship on accountability and honesty, or if he wants to lie and spend the next weeks on googling "how to beat a poly".

At the end of that period – when he tells you that you have the truth – you might give him 10 questions and let him know that the poly will be based on those questions. Then make it very clear that the goal of the poly is for you to start believing he’s being honest. It’s a tool for HIM to regain trust. Then make it clear that IF he passes the poly then it’s up to you to acknowledge that he has earned some trust. It’s not the old trust, but a trust-but-verify form of trust. But make it equally clear that if he fails… then that is a clear indicator that he doesn’t trust YOU, and that his failure would force you to reevaluate any possibility to reconcile.

Then be prepared for either result… The money spent for the poly would be better spent on a good divorce lawyer if you don’t intent to act on the result or hope to go on without a sense of having the truth.

So long story short.

He offered and put 360 tracker on his phone and mine so I can see where he is.

Broke down and also told me that he had a bigger porn problem then I first thought. (Multiple times a day and even would avoid sex with me to partake in the porn) use at work. ETC.

He had a mental break down and said he was spiraling in shame and didn't know how to handle it and he thinks in his mind there were many factors that led to his affair and maybe some he doesn't know yet.

He agreed to put a porn blocker on his devices which has me as his accountability person to see if he tries to delete/access porn.

He is starting IC but we both agreed that he needs a more intensive therapy than that, so we will wait to see what the SA counselor says once he does the assessment.

I made sure he understood it was not the Porn , the social media or anything else other than his shitty decisions and he agreed that it was his fault and his shitty lack of boundaries in his life to apparently a lot of things.

We involved his mom to EVERY aspect of these issues , I ordered drug test strips he will take daily, he agreed to the poly, and he has told several friends in our circle about what he did and has been trying to find that way out of his shame. He even agreed to a postnuptual agreement ( getting ready to reach out to a friend whose a lawyer to see if it is even worth it).

He said he has hit rock bottom and there is getting no lower and he is ready to change himself for the better, I hope he continues and means it but I know its A LONG ROAD and only time will tell and the ups and downs are inevitable.

I told him that I was stepping back and I would watch the things that he did on his own and see how his behaviors change and if they don't change his mom is aware he will be right back at her house and I would be done. I understand temptations to porn and all that but I need him to be honest if he is urging, or struggling. If he does it, ok I get it, its been an addiction for YEARS. Honesty is what matter to me at this point and seeing if I can TRULY forgive what he has done to me and this family over time. This will be much harder for him then I think he sees right now and all I can do is hope that it is worth it for him.

I hate thinking he is a "bad" person and he is unable to change because i see the desire and steps taking place to make those changes but I then go into a depression doubting every good thought I have and feeling stupid for even being here.

The things hes told me he has done with her and things he has said, doesn't seem like anyone I married and I feel like he is a complete stranger.

I see very small changes each day but I just wonder if they will stick and i know only time will tell me.

This is the worst thing I have ever felt in my life, that is for sure.

Thanks for taking the time to read and offer advice, I know we are all going through the same but also very unique situations.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 2:52 PM, Thursday, January 18th]

I hate to point out but "stepping back" and being his "accountability person" are far from the same thing! Just something to think about.

That is only what they call it when you receive messages they tried to delete the app or access porn.

Not that I’m his "buddy". But I do think that I should be the one notified and not anyone else.