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So I'm having some struggles when it comes to being defensive or trying to explain certain things.

I find that if my BS tries to raise a particular issue, if I then find I don't agree or there is something which i may not find particularly accurate I can end up getting frustrated and spend far too long trying to explain to her why that is simply not the case.

For example we recently had a conversation about some stuff that had happened where I behaved like an absolute child and started stomping around. This had happened after I was called various things and told again "that's it we're done" or words to that effect. I have explained to her before how saying stuff like she has can have a massive impact on me and it almost immediately flicks a button in my head which turns me into a total asshat. Regardless of that I appreciate that it shouldn't happen and that as she is the one who is hurting because of my actions it shouldn't be me who is then behaving like a non empathetic moron!!

Furthermore I also understand that she only gets like this when she believes me to either be defensive or that I am lying or not thinking enough about certain stuff and just blurting out an answer she is a good person with a truly good soul and all of this is out of character.

So to simplify:

Discussion is had....I get defensive..... anger sets in by her... anger is matched by me

Anyway back to my point, during this conversation I had with her the other day I was trying to explain to her my actions and give some context around why xyz happened and then I said in relation to the stomping around "can I say, just ask yourself why I may have been upset or angry that day?" I wasn't saying it in a "are you surprised" or "this is your fault" although I can see that aspect I just wanted to show her that A) I am a WS and therefore an asshole but is it really fair at TIMES to say some of what has been said? And B) that when emotions are high people can and will say or do the wrong thing.

Any way that was it, an eruption of hostility, I was accused of being defensive, accused of trying to deflect and accused of all sorts which simply was not what I was trying to do.

Regardless though I wasn't trying to excuse any of my behaviour as that isn't what my point was.

I then pointed out in a thread she asked me to read about defensiveness that one comment on there was from a ws who described how as WS's we are clearly broken in way, it's clear as day that I know I am in many ways however I am trying to fix that element in me and find ways to try and stop that. So I used his analogy in that if your microwave was broken you wouldn't shout and point your finger at it would you?! Anyway this angered her and led to then 3hrs of me trying to explain again that I was merely saying at times the way she speaks to me is awful and maybe there could be other ways she could tackle this....I wasn't trying to say to her "your abusive and your shitty actions need to change" it was simply just a request for her to look at the bigger picture.

Anyway I am rambling, so my question is ...

Would what I wrote in your opinion be showing any defensiveness at all?

And

In terms of the microwave analogy, was that wrong for me to bring that up?

WS here with my thoughts.

I have struggled with defensive thinking and responses. I have often felt that BS was bringing things up to upset me. Of course this is not true. I have had real difficulty in not reacting when BS does not believe me, hence my posts on not being believed and getting defensive. I am now trying to actually listen to what BS is saying, rather than instantly assume and get annoyed.

It is hard, believe me. I've had years of shitty behaviour that I am trying to unwind. I've years of lies which I'm unwinding too. It's these lies that have cased the most conflict in the attempts at R we have gone through. Ultimately, my lies and defensiveness have completely nullified any positive changes I've made to myself. Which brings me to my first point. Any good work you do may not be noticed by BS certainly it does not in any way compensate for the hurt we've caused. I am now writing down what I think I'm doing well in and at an appropriate time, discuss this with BS. During an argument or when you're acting defensively is NOT an appropriate time. Hey, I've screamed at my BS when I've felt attacked for not improving. I once shouted "at least I'm not fucking someone else any more". We need to be aware of what BS needs to see and wants to see. Improvements elsewhere are great, but if this is happening at the expense of what is needed then a BS is going to be focussed on what we're not doing. That is of course normal and acceptable.

Every time we feel attacked, even if we are being, we need to remember that we have inflicted this upon our BS. You say this in your post. What I feel you need to do is to actually believe this. For years I knew my defensiveness was counter productive. Just like I knew infidelity would cause heartache. I had to constantly remind myself to not react and to calmly listen to what was being said and accept any anger coming my way. Knowing something is wrong and actually making changes to ourselves because we know it are two very different things. Again, something I still struggle with.

You are allowed to feel pain and upset. Hey, showing this is a sign we're starting to get it. However, we need to be careful when expressing this. We cannot put our own pain above that of BS. It's not even fair to compare them. Feel upset, talk to BS about that upset and tell her why you're feeling it. Dig deep into why, don't blame BS, but instead ask why you feel that BS is at fault? It will come back to you and your actions eventually. Apologise often. As ever, I've been horrific at this. I'm working with IC and BC on my feelings and will discuss them with BS. This is much better than slipping into my shell and shutting down.

Would what I wrote in your opinion be showing any defensiveness at all?

Yes, absolutely. Actively trying to prove BS wrong in her thoughts is defensive, even if those thoughts are incorrect. I've gotten very angry with BS over this and myself used the "That's it, were done" comment. We have to listen to BS and understand why they feel what they feel. I've uncovered may self lies by actually listening to BS. We have found many minimisations this way too. There is a long way to go in our journey. Lots of uncomfortable discussions and a lot of compassion and empathy from me to BS. Even when I want to say "No, that did not happen like that" I now chose to say "I don't recognise that as true, lets discuss" It does help to keep us away from defensiveness...As long as we're open to listen and not just say it.

Defensiveness also comes from us not being willing to show empathy, in my experience anyway. I have shut out feeling anything for BS and focussed on me and my hurt. Focus on my pride being hurt by not being believed, when I've done nothing but lie. Foolish and selfish thinking on my part.

In terms of the microwave analogy, was that wrong for me to bring that up?

This response is not an attack. It is from a WS who has been there and still goes there. I'm working on me as you are working on you. I say this having been there and got the tshirt.

Again a resounding yes. Look, I've said some really dumb shit in my time defending my behaviour. WAY worse than this. However comparing your affair to a microwave is not showing any compassion or empathy. We as BS are broken, yes absolutely we are. Unlike a broken microwave we still chose to act on our brokenness. EVERY action we have chosen to do. No matter how broken we are, we have control over our choices. We chose to not give a fuck about our actions, but it's a choice none the less. A microwave breaks and that is that. It was not a conscious decision to do so. It's not doing it out of selfishness or because BS called it out on a lie. Saying what you did is seriously minimising your wayward past. It is giving a huge red flag to BS that you're not getting it. I can understand her getting upset. Look, we need to not be who we are/were in the past. Owning our choices is a huge step and from other posts I've read, it's rare that a WS does truly do the work fully. In doing the work and discussing with BS, they are going to show anger. We need to accept this. We need to accept this and apologise for being the one who inflicted this on BS. Please try and think about what you say. Try and think "If I compare myself and my infidelity to a microwave going bang, is this going to be received well?" If in any doubt, don't say it. Again, I wish I chose to do this every time before I open my mouth. I've said stupid things that were ill thought out and will again, I'm sure. Try and remember that when discussing our infidelity, we need to constantly remember WE DID THIS. Do not separate the affair from any part of the conversation. We need to remember the connection between our actions and the upset BS is feeling. Failing to do this gives the impression we do not understand or care about BSs feelings.

We need to stop defending, stop trying to minimise and accept the hurt we have inflicted.

Thank you for sharing this. I certainly would not have done the same. Hopefully we both get some learning from this and can use it to improve ourselves

No STOP sign ...

Brokenness is an explanation, not an excuse.

To heal, I think you're going to eventually do this: adopt new patterns for responding to your BS.

Discussion is had....I get defensive..... anger sets in by her... anger is matched by me

That's what you do now. You can't change your BS, but you can change yourself. Logically, you can prevent yourself from getting defensive, and you can prevent yourself from matching her anger with yours.

anger sets in by her... anger is matched by me

It's hard to be more passive. Anger doesn't set in in her. She gets angry. Anger isn't matched by you. You get angry.

I know that you're working to take responsibility for yourself. The language you use is part of that. When you find yourself speaking to yourself or to others in passive terms, my reco is to stop and change your language to the active mode.

Don't talk about what comes about. Talk about who does what in order to make things happen.

Active mode is much easier than passive - it almost always takes fewer words, so there's less room for misunderstanding.

Tinytim,

WS here. When talking to your BS, you cannot Defend, Minimize, Justify or Argue... ever, as it completely invalidates them and shifts the blame from you the WS. I am certainly not good at this and am trying to not do these things when talking to my betrayed spouse, but this is a must for us WS's. You trying to "explain" away your actions does all of these bad things at once. Defending and justifying makes an attempt to excuse your actions and choices, and tells them they are wrong and invalid. You have already made them feel invalid by cheating, lying and abusing...you cannot do this to them anymore. When you minimize the impact of your actions, whether the cheating ones or any of your actions and choices they are confronting, you invalidate them and their pain. And when you argue you are making it a you vs them, win or lose prospect...why do this with the one you claim to want to make amends with and reconcile with?

Again, I fail at this daily but it is the key to moving forward in your conversations with them and showing them some contrition and sincerity.

Don't argue, defend, minimize or justify anything, especially not anything relating to your affairs and abuse.

[This message edited by wantstorepair at 7:27 PM, Friday, January 19th]

So I used his analogy in that if your microwave was broken you wouldn't shout and point your finger at it would you?! Anyway this angered her

WS here
If your microwave is broken you throw it out, are you sure that’s the analogy you want to use?

I think the defensiveness here is similar to what I struggled with. When your BS get triggered you want to meet them at their energy and scream back all the things you are working on. Can’t they see all the hard work you are doing? Amirite?

The thing is all those things you are doing are to heal you, they are doing nothing to heal your BS. You need to focus in those moments on what you can do to help them through their healing and their pain. They go up, you need to take a deep breath and be level. Ask them when you aren’t in a shouting match what they would want in that moment so you have some idea of how to handle it or in the moment ask questions. I can see you are struggling can I hug you. Do you want to take a quick breather and come back to this? Be specific, what do you need isn’t very helpful when they are triggered.

WS here as well.

If my microwave was broken AND caused me grievous harm I would probably slam the door, cuss at it, tear it out of it’s cubby hole, and throw it out with the trash never to think about it again except when the pain hit. And I would comfort myself with a shinier, bigger, more powerful microwave with some awesome functions my old microwave probably didn’t have. Not sure I would want my BS to think of me as the broken microwave…. JS

Actually, the latch on the door of my Samsung microwave, which is sold under many brand names, DID break.

I did some research and found a $10 part that is easily installed can fix it. I bought the part, and it didn't fit. I found a way to fix it without the part. I probably spent an hour total, and the fix has held for a few years so far and I really hoped I haven't jinxed it!

I'm not sure how applicable the analogy is to healing from infidelity, though.

Oh ... I actually did swear at the microwave. The latch is a well known point of failure, and the manufacturer should have fixed it long ago.

Hi all,

Firstly thank you all for your responses, I'll respond properly tomorrow when I have time :-) I see the microwave analogy for what it is and I appreciate all your time .....but how about if i describe it as being like a car ... jokes aside I am grateful for your insight and I truly do appreciate it. Reading these posts have helped both my BS and I especially yours Bulcy so thank you in particular for your time as a lot of time went into that.

Thanks all again and I'll update tomorrow x

SIsoon,

I always appreciate your wisdom. I’m extremely thankful Knight chose not to set me, along with any offending kitchen appliances on the curb on garbage day.

Tiny Tim,

I remember the defensive reactions when this was new. I was on SI from the get go and I truly knew better and it was still a struggle at times. Here are some things that helped me and still do when triggers come up for my BS (we live in a small town, there will always be triggers).

1. I had to force myself to pause before I spoke. Like REALLY PAUSE, and think about what I was saying. I have ADHD and am naturally impulsive. My life is a series of, "I wish I had not said that." So I had to explain to my BS that I was trying to institute a new habit in communicating with him. I would pause and check what I was about to say for authenticity, and for empathy. i wasn’t always successful but this actually did help.

2. I had to realize that the things my BS was saying that I was feeling defensive about (because in my mind they weren’t true) were actually my BS’ truth. And the reason these things were true for him was that I made shitty choices that completely destroyed everything he had previously believed was true. So I had to approach it from, "I can understand how you would believe that." And sometimes that’s all. If he wanted my input and to know what I actually thought or felt at the time he was referring to I would provide as much information as he wanted. If not I had to make a decision to either think or say. I can understand why you believe that after what I have done to us and I’m willing to wait until my behavior has possibly helped you to see things differently or you are done with me. I was willing to sit with the anger, disgust, rage (not abuse), sadness, grief, and keep doing the work to make myself a safe person for both of us to be involved with.

That’s all I have for now.

As I say all, thank you for your comments.

Something that resonated with me the other day after posting this and reading about active and passive communication (thanks sisoon) was a quote from one website where it said words to the effect of we listen to reply rather than listen to understand. It's fairly accurate I have to say as I do just tht. I recognise that alot and it truly does have to stop.

We are both so tired of fighting and I really do not want to lose her due to my ignorance and my belittling of certain situations or by being defensive.

As I found with my anxiety I do need to chuck a pause button in there, to just understand and respect her views instead of attempting to change them may actually go someway in showing her I understand....I just hope I can do this.

Anyway as I say, I am humbled by your responses and I wish you all the best

I can understand why you believe that after what I have done to us and I’m willing to wait until my behavior has possibly helped you to see things differently or you are done with me. I was willing to sit with the anger, disgust, rage (not abuse), sadness, grief, and keep doing the work to make myself a safe person for both of us to be involved with.

I am working on reminding myself of this--that of course he can't believe or trust me. There is no way or reason to expect him to, and I just have to keep working to make myself safe.

"I can understand how you would believe that."

I am trying to separate myself from this wording though, because I know it comes across as dismissive and therapy-speaky and manipulative to my BS. Instead I am trying to just tell myself that it makes sense why he would believe it (instead of saying it out loud), and act from that understanding.