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Thank you, hikingout, for being so supportive.

Right now it’s even harder because he is still dealing with a lot of fresh shock and grief and he is naturally going to oscillate in how he feels by each minute. Even if you were doing everything perfectly it would not change that.

We are at five months out. I know this feels like an eternity to him. I know it takes a lot of people much longer to get to where we are now. I also know this is not comforting and only comes across as excuses.

His best interest right now is seeing you will not waver in what you want, it’s part of earning trust and being reliable.

Thank you for the reminder. I have been really trying to do this. I know he needs reassurance. I just get in my head when he says I am actively choosing to continue the abuse by saying I want to be here. I know that's not what I'm doing, but my desperation not to hurt him anymore makes me question if I am hurting him more by trying.

You need to find a way to ground yourself so that you can be his shock absorber. Be present, try and remain calm. If you need a minute or some time to answer thoughtfully, be transparent and say "you deserve an answer to that, sometimes my mind is shutting down out of panic and I just need a moment to collect myself and absorb what you are asking me."

I have been trying to do this but he sees it as me taking time out to figure out how to further craft the lies.

I really think a lot of it comes down to me needing to not have him believe me or my intentions--just continuing to try anyway and hoping he will eventually see it.

I really think a lot of it comes down to me needing to not have him believe me or my intentions--just continuing to try anyway and hoping he will eventually see it.

Yes! Exactly! You have given him a lot of reasons to feel the way he does, so all you can do is keep creating a new proven track record. You are doing better than you think you are. Most ws would not be able to boil these things down so eloquently.

I know 5 months sounds long. But for the first 3-6 months it’s shock, and then usually the anger phase. Maybe familiarize yourself with the stages of grief because he will oscillate between those as well. It takes 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, and in being around here for the last seven I think most people are closer to 4 or 5. The good news is it doesn’t stay where it is now. Right now, and a lot of the first year is like emergency triage.

His words are his pain. Think of it right now as him getting the poison out. The more you can be present for him and not panicking. Accept you will still make missteps, but try and learn from each one and not repeat them.

The reality is his pain is making his brain keep the risks at bay, so honestly he would be unconsciously scanning for any reason to not be close to you. That’s going to be that way for a while yet. So take your missteps in stride and keep developing from that. It’s the only thing humanly possible that you can do. Be curious about his pain, being things up to him so he doesn’t feel like he is alone in working through it.

Also know that you were escaping yourself by having an affair. Think about the conditions that occurred in. Think about where that entitlement came from and as you discover the things that put you in that path, bring it up to him and apologizing for being so wrong in your thinking. Then show him the results if you’re new thinking. Transparency is communication in overdrive.

Example: "I am sorry I said (this abusive thing). I have figured out that it’s hard for me to be vulnerable and ask for what I need and it came out as criticism often. You didn’t deserve that. I am going to work on my communication style in the future instead of automatically blaming you"

That may not fit your scenario, but you see where I am going. And then you have to follow through with it. Of course I understand right now you are not in a place to be talking about your needs on much of a scale at all. But when those things pop up you need to take accountability and describe what you will do differently and practice following through on it.

During a calmer time a need that you could express is about how when you do the wrong thing your mind panics and your emotions flood and it makes it harder for you to be clear in your communication. That you know your instincts in how you react to things are a problem but assure him you are not interested in lying anymore- but make sure he never catches you in a lie again. That is the one thing you do have full control over right now. Building trust through reliability is exactly as you said - staying focused on what you know you should do and not expecting him to believe it, YET.

Eventually you will have a better track record and he can reasonably slowly start being able to believe you more.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:04 PM, Monday, February 12th]

Hey PBF,

I can relate a lot to the panic and saying the wrong thing. The biggest mistake I’ve made so far was in a heated discussion he pressed me for an answer and I just blurted out the first thing I could think of. It was not the truth. I knew it wasn’t the truth and so did he. But I had no idea how to back down from it because the one thing he said he needed this time was the truth. Telling him I lied was probably the hardest thing I have ever had to do. But the thing was that the lie destroyed all of the credit I had built up so I needed to own it and start at ground zero.

One of the first things we addressed in my IC was mindfulness. Not only about my thought but my emotional state. We spent a solid amount of time on grounding techniques like box breathing and decatastrophizing. Also I got a feeling wheel since I couldn’t really identify my feelings.

I’ve gotten really good at noticing when I am getting worked up and have gone out of green and into yellow and calling for a 5 minute breather to get back to green before we continue. My BH got really good at identifying if I’m in the red which for me is freeze. He would pull out the feelings wheel ask me what the emotion was and the thought that proceeded it.

Since we always do this when I’m emotionally in the green I have the ability to think clearly and actually answer things in a way that isn’t disrespectful or triggering to my BS. But it is certainly a process

Thanks, CRS. I'm working a lot on mindfulness too. In my DBT intensive we've been talking about, among other things, practicing mindfulness non-judgmentally (just observing and naming what is happening without attaching value judgments), and effectively--keeping your goals in mind.

At first I was stuck on this concept because it seems like a focus on being effective is part of how I got myself into this mess in the first place (focusing on my goals even when it was deceitful and manipulative.) I brought this up to the therapist who leads the group and we talked through how it is a focus on being effective with long term, meaningful goals and goals you develop while in "wise mind" (another DBT term that refers to the intersection of emotion mind and reason mind--think of what your wise, grandparent-ly self would say about what is happening). So, effectiveness in terms of focusing on healing together instead of being right, effectiveness in terms of becoming more honest and having more integrity, etc.

So, effectiveness in terms of focusing on healing together instead of being right, effectiveness in terms of becoming more honest and having more integrity, etc.

We have a saying that we would use frequently in our family :
Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

It could stop arguments as sometimes we do so because we want to be right. We hate when someone tells we are wrong. It allowed us to figure out what exactly we were arguing.

Also, not sure if this applies at all but as a defense mechanism I had a tendency to derail hard conversations. Before the affair, he would just shut them down because he didn’t like to see me cry or I would take the conversation to another topic entirely. After the affair, he was laser focused. He learned to keep going through the tears and he often pulled me back to the topic. If you have a similar dynamic, you may need to address it and give him permission to keep you on topic.

Learning new dynamic and communication styles is difficult when things are so raw. Showing that willingness to listen and change can be beneficial in healing.

Also, not sure if this applies at all but as a defense mechanism I had a tendency to derail hard conversations. Before the affair, he would just shut them down because he didn’t like to see me cry or I would take the conversation to another topic entirely. After the affair, he was laser focused. He learned to keep going through the tears and he often pulled me back to the topic. If you have a similar dynamic, you may need to address it and give him permission to keep you on topic.

I have this tendency big time. I am trying to sit with the uncomfortable feelings and hard conversations and to catch myself when I start to do this. Thanks for the suggestion to give him permission to keep me on topic. I mentioned it.

I have this tendency big time. I am trying to sit with the uncomfortable feelings and hard conversations and to catch myself when I start to do this.

I know it's hard. My body deployed every avoidant trick in the book, from gastrointestinal upset to falling asleep as a stress response. It's hard to convince your BS you're taking them seriously when you drift off during a confrontation, but it was a genuine physiological reaction, and I had to learn to fight it.

My body deployed every avoidant trick in the book, from gastrointestinal upset to falling asleep as a stress response. It's hard to convince your BS you're taking them seriously when you drift off during a confrontation, but it was a genuine physiological reaction

I’m so glad you mentioned this. I honestly thought I was going crazy the first time that happened

Yes to the stomach issues and sleep as a stress response. And I know it just looks like trying to derail more. I'm trying to fight those things so much.

I am struggling with my whys. I have read other people's and so many have resonated. I have done journaling digging into my initial answer, then asking why to each of those until I get back to my childhood trauma and my moral deficiencies. I have recognized huge problems with my mental health and coping. I have recognized I have been a hideously selfish person with no integrity. I don't know how else to dig but BS still thinks I am not scratching the surface. He feels like I am reading whatever I find like a horoscope and making it fit. I know there is no excuse or justification. I just don't know how I could possibly dig deeper. I want to.

I don't think there is anyone who has been as digusting as me. My affairs were not accidents. They were intentional--I thought to myself, "I want to have an emotional affair" and then I made it happen. I got caught once and I did not change. I look around at all of the people in the world trying to be good to each other and I know I am a monster. Nobody could ever possibly know me and still love me.

Still, I think I am redeemable--I know I am choosing to be a better person and that I will spend my life devoted to that. I also know there is no way my BS can ever trust me. I also know we both want the same thing--to work through this and have a future together. It feels unfathomable that we can both want it so badly and not have it happen. I cannot let myself believe that possibility.

[This message edited by PleaseBeFixable at 5:01 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

He feels like I am reading whatever I find like a horoscope and making it fit.

I can see why he might think that, but this is sort of the way I came to find mine. I had to find the things that resonated which meant trying on a lot of hats. It’s normal.

Also, I made the same decision you did. The ap had flirted with me in the past and I found it grosses this time I leaned into it. You were looking for excitement and something to make you feel good. That is the same as me, and I know you are redeemable. I wrote something on another post that might help. I will go copy it and bring it over.

I think the whys are helpful but knowing them doesn’t mean a whole lot until you start to change them. Knowing them cue you for self awareness. And I believe that all the things I did to work on my whys boiled down to these things:

1. Conducting myself in a way I feel good about. Exercising integrity. I can’t even go into a store and put something back in the wrong place anymore. Doing the right thing feels good and helps improve self image.

2. Replacing coping mechanisms. So instead of people pleasing, I had to learn to be authentic. And man if that wasn’t scary. But by doing so it provided insight that I could be loved for me, not for what I provided. You can intellectually know something, but until you can put it into practice it means noting. I realized my needing things to be perfect is a shame based response because it’s about how something looks rather than how it feels so I replaced that coping mechanisms by practicing being okay with good enough and that not everything was a sign to everyone else of my lack.

3. Replacing toxic thinking. Read about common toxic thought patterns so you can recognize. Mine included expecting negative outcomes, making problems appear bigger than they are, saying nasty things to myself, etc. it’s helpful if you think about whether you would say these thing s to your best friend or biggest love. Start replacing them with more compassionate and positive thoughts. "Maybe it will work out better than I can imagine" "I am doing the best I can and it’s enough" things like that. This one takes a while but it’s maybe the best pasty of what I changed because by being kind and compassionate to myself I have come to believe that I am loveable.

4. Spirituality. I am not religious. But I have found by focusing on my spiritual life I can find peace in most situations. Meditation, practicing being present, feeling the divine love that is available to all of us. Acts of service, doing for others, etc.

5. Self care. We show other people love by taking care of them, our brain understands we are loving ourselves the same way. Eat well, sleep well, move more, rest, Pune present and put away worries. These are all baselevel things that help maintain good brain chemicals. By practicing them you are showing yourself you are worthy of love and that you love yourself. In addition finding things to do that you are excited about, things to look forward to, things that light you up. I think that’s what many of us were looking for when we chose an affair. Keeping maintenance of happiness and joy will change what you seek to do when life gets hard. When I struggle, I spend time hiking, or sitting somewhere in nature, as an example.

I think what the goal is to create a wholesome life that you feel at peace in. Happy people who have peace in their lives don’t go out and use destructive behaviors. And when life gets hard they are prepared to handle it differently rather than acting out.

I wrote this for another poster because it’s sort of like reverse engineering. The whys are the things that relate to a lot of these categories.

I can hear your remorse and genuine desire to be a better person. This is the thing I can’t teach people, it’s there or it isn’t. Because you have it I know you will make it to where you are going. It’s not going to be without failures, but sometimes that’s how we learn too.

Thank you.

I read this response in the other thread and it is what I'm genuinely trying to do.

I also read your description of your own whys and so much of it resonated so much with my own. But he needs more--better answers--and I don't know how.

I know he wants you to dig deeper and quickly because he is in pain and he thinks it will help.

Truth is that it takes a lot of time because you have to kind of name one and then it takes a while for you to trace your patterns and integrate the knowledge. You will be in pursuit of one thing and start to see other things. You have to be diligent and consistent but outside of that there is no speeding it up. In many ways it’s an unlearning to do certain things.

Also it won’t alleviate the pain for him immediately for you to know your whys. He is likely more to resent some of them and feel sad that he didn’t notice them. Eventually he will take comfort from the changes that you made because you know your whys, but it’s a process and it does take time.

It’s all a pressure cooker at this phase, that will morph and change as the phases do. Just keep working on it and doing your best because that is all you can do.

I don't think there is anyone who has been as digusting as me. My affairs were not accidents. They were intentional--I thought to myself, "I want to have an emotional affair" and then I made it happen. I got caught once and I did not change. I look around at all of the people in the world trying to be good to each other and I know I am a monster. Nobody could ever possibly know me and still love me.

This resonates. Many of us here have felt it. Anyone who is entitled to post on this thread has done terrible, selfish things that hurt the person we were supposed to love and protect above all others. We may have taken different roads, but we arrived at the same destination.

What matters now is that you're looking for the right path out. You're not denying how you got here. You're not looking for justification to go deeper into the darkness. You're willing to face up to who you were and to give your all to becoming someone better. Monsters do not do that. They don't even try.

I was looking for something in my archive and came across a post I wrote four years ago to the day. It made me think of you.

I started here because I was desperate to "fix it" -- fix my spouse, fix my marriage, fill the hole which I had dug myself. I had kept secrets for a long, long time and sold myself on the idea that they were just inconsequential details. Of course, it's a complete logical fallacy to call something minor while simultaneously hiding it because you know you'll be in deep shit if it comes out. The wayward mind is not overly bothered by logic.

But lurking in the Wayward forum, I started to realize that my goal was unattainable. I couldn't lie and fix things at the same time -- but I couldn't tell the truth and fix things at the same time either. In fact, things might not be fixable at all. I had to come to accept that, as I realized that even more than healing my marriage, or my own self-image, I needed to help heal my BS. Without my cooperation, he would always be tortured by the unknown. That was entirely my fault, and it was the only thing I actually did have the power to fix.

So that's why I came, and why I stayed. I would never have accepted the necessity of radical honesty if I hadn't been reading here, or found the backbone to offer it.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 4:41 AM, Monday, February 26th]

Thank you for finding that for me. I've gotten to that point with the honesty. I've told him about all of it, though I know there are some things he will never actually believe me about, and I am trying to accept that. And I know I have to accept things might not be salvageable. But every time I feel like I've gotten close to that acceptance, I get a bit of hope from him and things feel like they might be ok, I cling to it so hard it feels impossible to let go. Like it feels like I really might die without it. I need help having hope without clinging to it like that.

The part of it that you are in is so very hard. Of course you are clinging to hope. In my mind it’s okay for you to do that. You have to have it to fight.

Right now your husband just doesn’t know what will make him feel better. And it’s hard because the answer is nothing will right now. He has to find his way through healing. That first year is a wild roller coaster ride.

It sounds like he isn’t ready to let go but when the two of you get close he gets a vulnerability hangover. It’s normal, he wants to let you in but when he does a little bit or you are able to have some good moments then his fight or flight kicks in and he needs for you to understand the pain is nowhere near over, the resolution for him is unreachable. All of this is normal.

You are right you can’t control what he decides but what you are doing on your end are the right things. Telling the truth, working on your whys, going to therapy, reading, posting here. By doing the best you can with all of it and practicing how to be there for him you will get better. And that is giving the relationship the best chance it has to heal. There are definitely no guarantees but keep doing the best you can each day, it really does add up, and is so worth it.

Don’t give up on yourself.Hang in there, and make sure you are taking care of yourself in the process. You need as much happy brain chemicals as you can get to help you get through this. Exercise, eat well, try to rest when you can. It’s not a sprint it’s a marathon.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:08 PM, Monday, February 26th]

It sounds like he isn’t ready to let go but when the two of you get close he gets a vulnerability hangover. It’s normal, he wants to let you in but when he does a little bit or you are able to have some good moments then his fight or flight kicks in and he needs for you to understand the pain is nowhere near over, the resolution for him is unreachable. All of this is normal.

I've been reading the Betrayal Bind by Michelle Mays and this is what she says--that cycles of connection and disconnection are normal. Getting close will feel like a threat so he will disconnect, then disconnecting is dysregulatng so he will reconnect.

Don’t give up on yourself.Hang in there, and make sure you are taking care of yourself in the process. You need as much happy brain chemicals as you can get to help you get through this. Exercise, eat well, try to rest when you can. It’s not a sprint it’s a marathon.

I went to a Codependents Anonymous meeting yesterday and though it wasn't a good fit for me some people's stories seemed like he might be able to relate. I realized I have to heal myself enough to not fall apart if he decides to leave so that he can make that choice without having to worry about me. And if he decides to stay, it will be because he wants to, not because he is afraid either. It is a hard realization, but I am trying to focus on my healing now for me and for him.

I feel the sincerity in what you say, and I can see that you back that up with actions. Acceptance of not being in control will help the situation too. Coming to terms with that allowed me to put away my manipulative behavior (not all manipulations are ill intended, but there was a lot of reacting out of desperation on my part. Going from reactive to proactive took me some time)

And once my husband could see my honesty and lack of trying to control him, the outcome, the amount of time we would be in limbo, etc, it allowed him to see my intentions of rebuilding trust. He no longer thought it was just damage control and was more open to waiting and seeing.

Most of us ws were at the point you are in, and the things you are learning and vocalizing tells me you are on the right path. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I do know the work you are doing will never be wasted no matter how the situation turns out. The way you want to feel is now a goal, it takes some more work to get to that acceptance but that is a worthy goal that will allow things to progress better. It’s a normal place to be to know you need to climb to that perspective, but not yet seeing all it will take to get there. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, the ways will appear.

Did I already suggest "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown? I recommend it so much I lost track. For me this allowed me to find the parts of me that were being self protective and hindering me from the connection I so direly wanted.

Thank you. It is really just so hard not to cling to what I want so badly. I'm working on the acceptance.

I have seen you recommend that book a few times. I've seen some videos of Brene Brown and she seems wonderful. Honestly, I'm super resistant to things that seem self helpy for me right now because I've been so self-centered this whole time. I read a book on self-compassion to avoid guilt early on, for example, so I am trying not to use resources that I could twist to let myself off the hook. Maybe I will recommend it to him.

[This message edited by PleaseBeFixable at 5:42 PM, Monday, March 4th]