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After 4 years since the first dday, many ic sessions, many couples sessions I struggle with different things in our relationship. We do try and talk a few times a week. It should be more, I know. Icam an avoidant, so I can try and find a way to avoid conversations. After having my 3 ea affairs and all the counseling I still struggle daily with many things that I have caused. Here is a short list of some of my struggles that I am in the process of fixing, by doing my work and continuing to go to counseling.

1. Living with knowing the pain I caused my wife.
2. Realizing and living with the broken trust she had in me.
3. Not being a safe enough partner to my wife, for her to be intimate with me.
4. Living with and understanding that she thinks about my affairs and what I was doing behind her back, at least once a day.

Like I said earlier, we are both still seeing a counselor. We both are trying to make this marriage work. I know I have my own work to do. This is just a short list of the damage I have caused to her our marriage and myself.

I still struggle daily with many things that I have caused.

How are they struggles? Do you struggle to accept that they are true? To "live with" the knowledge of who you are, as reflected in your wife’s struggles? Three of your bullets had "live with" in there.

Also, did you mean to post in the General forum? Just checking…

Similar reaction as HoP. Is there something we can do to help you or support you? Or are you just wanting to be heard (which is totally ok in itself)?

So you struggle with the consequences of your actions.

You're a few years from dday. At this point,it shouldn't be a struggle. It should be an acceptance of the very predictable, very preventable consequences to your actions.

This sounds more to me like you struggle to gain self compassion, and to find peace.

I think often when we struggle with ourselves we cut off connection. We don’t feel worthy of it, we can’t face what we have done, we are full of shame.

What you describe is something most ws who grow a conscience struggle with. We felt like a piece of shit to begin with, we leaned on others outside the marriage to feel better, and then we only feel worse in the fallout of all of it.

In order to stop being stuck you do need to find a way to stop struggling with yourself and your shame. I really like the book Rising String by Brene Brown because she illustrated how shame holds us back and the types of emotional risks we need to take to strengthen connection.

It’s not easy to find the balance of self compassion and remorse. But if you can find a way to reduce your shame it will create more space for that.

For me to get there, the strongest thing I did was being mindful every day of my thoughts, actions, motivations to to choose to do things that reinforce that I am worth the work needed. When you get a handle on that, you can start to separate the hard conversations and feeling like a piece of shit. It seems counterintuitive to stop navel gazing because it feels like we really need to be sorrier, to look sorrier.

The difference here is uou can feel guilty about it. Guilt is about how we feel about what we did. You need to continue to grow remorse, which is understanding how your wife feels. But shame, it has no place at the table.

Guilt says "I feel terrible for doing those things, I want to become a better person"
Remorse says "I feel terrible about the things I did and I want to make amends"
Shame says "I am worthless, always have been always will be"

So in order to separate from it you have to gain the ability to still love yourself, and through working each day to be the best man you can be, your recent history changes. We often base how we feel about ourselve more on how we are currently behaving.

When iou are stuck in your shame then every conversation with your bs becomes confirmation of how worthless we are. So in order to be stronger in those conversations we have to believe that we are redeemable and ready to do the things needed to turn our life around.Do the right thing as often as possible. Look at your motivations and begin changing what you are motivated by.

It sounds like iou have fallen into what a lot of people fall into post infidelity- you want to fix the marriage without fixing yourself. Focus on that and it may be the environment that your wife can heal in. Become trustworthy, loving, self validating, and she will see those things happening if you don’t run out of chances before you do it. The relationship isn’t why you cheated, I am certain you already know that. So look at your whys and use them as a to do list for true change and not just trying to get by hoping it will be enough.

You are devinely loved, Wolf. Even if you don’t believe in religion, there is this whole realm of spirituality that you can work on that will put you more in touch with your higher self. Humans get stuck in their crap, but there is this whole other part of you that has a beautiful soul. Tap into that and let it help guide you. Meditation, mindfulness, a higher purpose, all those things will help you heal and become the man you are meant to be. A book that helped me with that was "the power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle. He explains how to use quieting the mind to find our path and our peace. Another great one to look at is Pema Chodron who has a lot of great ways to frame when life is hard or painful.

I know that feels a little woo woo, but it helped me to see that my soul is still beautiful, I just need to act in accordance with how it can show me how to reflect that in my human life. Self compassion is a tricky thing to find in the middle of the abyss, but you will be stuck without it. If you can find your way to loving yourself, you will have a beautiful love to share with others.

Take things one day at a time, my friend. Each day is cumulative and if you worry only about being the best you today, tomorrow you can build on that version until many days and many versions later you are on the other side.

If you aren’t a reader all three have some great stuff in audiobooks, podcasts, and on YouTube.

A book that helped me with that was "the power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle.

I have to say that’s a pretty good book. Some thoughts from it I keep pondering on during the day:

- you are not your mind. Your mind is a tool that you use.

- if you sit in stillness, your mind will stop. No thoughts will pop through. The mind has essentially temporarily gone away. Yet you are still there. The part that is still there, the awareness, is "you ". It is not your mind.

- Sit and watch your thoughts and emotions, pop up and don’t engage with them, just let them pass through and float away. Note when you do that "you" are the one watching them. You are the watcher. Not the mind that generates those thoughts and emotions.

It really kneecaps a lot of those intrusive thoughts when you are persistent about it. Mind-blowing, literally. 😜

Wolfpack-

I came across something last night that I think you should look up. There are four stages of competence, and I believe you are in the consciously incompetent stage. This is a valid stage of healing, it’s when you know what you want to be able to do but haven’t gained the skills yet to do it. You have to gain that awareness in order to figure out what skills you are missing in order to be consciously competent. This is a good time for you to read and get further knowledge on what these conversations need to look like.

I wondered if you have checked out some of John Gottman work on conflict? Just pointing you in a few new directions though I still think a lot of what has you stuck is shame. But I saw this and thought I would give you some more words for research.

Thank you all for your responses. I think I'm not finding the correct book or the best book for me. I think that I'm looking for help on my avoidance problem. I think that would be the best area for me to concentrate on right now. My avoidance is what caused me to seek out others instead of continuing to talk to my wife. I have gotten some information from my counselor on the subject, but hoped others that have read a book on it might be able to point me in the right direction.I did mean to post in the general section. I figured it would have more views and more people to respond to me.

Have you thought about your avoidance as selfishness? Their thinking more about too and your feelings rather than the other person?

I'm an introvert and used to be very shy. I read a book that said something similar to bring shy was thinking more about yourself and not thinking about the other person. I did a lot of work on myself to be less shy.

It's tough at first to have the conversations that you'd rather avoid. What I found out was that my internal train of thought created more issues than the actual conversations.

Just a different perspective.

Avoidance is a lot of things.

I would picture it as a lot of little rivers that feed a large body of water.

I recommend starting with Rising Strong. It’s a great book on being more vulnerable and what building true connections look like- both with others and yourself.

As far as it being selfishness, I think being overly selfish or overly unselfish comes from the same thing- a lack of something that you are trying to fill. I think it’s how we look at connection. Either we have to take, take, take because we keep looking for our validation in them proving their love. Or we have to give, give, give hoping we can earn love. It’s two sides to the same coin.

I personally believe that we are trying to substitute that rather than learning to love ourselves.

So, each day think about putting the water in the little rivers that feed our life (the larger body of water) each day. I don’t think you can talk yourself out of being avoidant, it’s more about consistency in changing how we look at ourselves.

The type of work involved seems unrelated, but it’s things like:

A daily gratitude practice. This one sounds trite, but it’s huge. Studies show gratitude literally changes the wiring of your brain in as little as 21 days. It’s not just sitting and thinking of all the things you are grateful for. Pick a few each morning and really reflect on your appreciation of them. If you choose 3 things for 21 days, all the sudden you have 62 new things you will connect with and notice because you are now mindful of them.

When you feel the abundance from gratitude, you find you already have what you need to be happy without taking more from others.

A daily practice of becoming aware of your thoughts and reaching for better ones. When you tune into your self talk, are you talking to yourself in such a way that you would someone you love or your best friend? Reframe them.

"I am so stupid" is one I often said to myself. I would correct myself as often as I could be aware of it and say something like "I am learning new things all the time". "What a shitty day" became, "I am having a hard moment, that’s okay." I would take a short walk and a deep breath and tell myself "okay let’s try this again"

Daily devotion to do something good for others. Make it your bs as often as possible. The rule is though, you do it for them, to make their day easier or better, not to get something in return. We feel good about ourselves when we learn to give. In fact, I think a lot of the magic of love is in what we put into it. What we invest in it.

So those are some ideas about how you set up your "little rivers" to flow positive things into your life.

It’s not really just about changing your avoidance. It’s about becoming proud of who you are, feeling the abundance in your life, creating healthier thoughts will always yield healthier behaviors, and when you show yourself kindness and compassion, it’s far easier to show it to others. Our relationship with ourselves is that big body of water that I am talking about feeding. And when you learn to make that fill with as much positive as you can you will hold your head high in situations rather than avoiding them.

Start with rising strong, because she really will help you understand how to have true connection. Most of us don’t know what that looks like or how we are the ones who keep ourselves from having it.

And realize that the more you can be in each moment the more joy you will have, and the more you will have to spread. When we are in our past we are depressed. When we are in our future, we are anxious. Try dealing in the current moment as much as possible. The more you can be present, the more you can be mindful, the more you can change your "rivers" in those moments and the more positive momentum will make you lean into your life.

There is no such thing as a book that can tell you how not to be avoidant and fix you right there. It’s a mindful daily practice that can only be as effective when you are consistent and mindful.

These things sounded so left field to me when I was recovering. I needed something quicker because my life was falling apart. But the more I watched the falling apart instead of getting in there and doing the repairs, the more isolated and avoidant I became.

Are you in therapy? If you can afford it, I think you would find it helpful. They will help you trace where these things that aren’t serving you come from so that you can let them go.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:15 AM, Monday, April 1st]

It sounds like iou have fallen into what a lot of people fall into post infidelity- you want to fix the marriage without fixing yourself.

These words are so true and so useful. I will use them with my husband. Thank you soooooooooooooooo much!

I appreciate all the advice that has been given and your time you took to write in this thread. You are probably right, there is no perfect book to help me not be an avoidant, I have searched that. I have watched a number of videos and read a numberof articles on the subject. I do think everyday of the things I am grateful for. I doknow I can easily slip into the mode of telling myself that I am dumb, or I can start feeling shame again. I only let these thought last a minute or two and then I look at the things I'm grateful for in my life and tell myself, I made mistakes in the past, but I am still a good person. I am in counseling and it has helped. I still search for articles or books to read and also look for videos on avoidance. I have also learned to love myself. As crazy as it sounds, I was never really taught that when I was growing up or even aware what that was. Learning that has helped me a lot in my marriage and my work life.

I still search for articles or books to read and also look for videos on avoidance.

do you have a particular practice that you have taken on? That’s what it takes, something you do every day. Something that then becomes a part of you, that will result in a changed "you".

How has the reading changed you?

I have and still continue to have my days of gratitude. I agree I could do better and fund at least 3 things in my life I am grateful for. I do look for ways to make my wife's life easier, by doing things for her or getting things that she might have forgotten to grab around the house. As for reading articles or watching videos on avoidance, I felt that in the beginning they were helpful,I learned a number of things from them about myself. At this point, the articles and videos feel repetitive, maybe they would work to quickly go over them just to remind myself of things. Right now I feel stuck about not having a good resource to learn from. I will look into the book that was me tinned by Renee Brown. I'm also open if anyone has other books or ideas. Thank you all for responding.

Gently, IMO you've probably read enough.

The problem is that reading in itself does not effect change. For a person to change, the person has to choose new principles, put them into practice, and keep practicing them until the new behaviors become (semi-)automatic.

Becoming a good partner after betraying someone else takes change, and that takes a of of work. Words on a page don't effect change without practice. You have to learn new behaviors, and that means practicing - doing, failing, doing again, failing again, until you finally have the new behavior down pat. And even then, you still have to keep in practice by continually using the new behavior.

Do you know what your W wants from you? If not, I urge you to ask her. Do you know what you want to give? If not, look inside. Does what she want match what you want to give? Does what you want match wheat she wants to give?

Being a good partner ain't easy - but it's well within the capability of most human beings. The fact that you're asking about your struggle says to me that it's well within your capability. Really, you can probably just do it.

The problem is that reading in itself does not effect change. For a person to change, the person has to choose new principles, put them into practice, and keep practicing them until the new behaviors become (semi-)automatic.

Becoming a good partner after betraying someone else takes change, and that takes a of of work. Words on a page don't effect change without practice. You have to learn new behaviors, and that means practicing - doing, failing, doing again, failing again, until you finally have the new behavior down pat. And even then, you still have to keep in practice by continually using the new behavior.

So well said! Yes, it is practicing new behaviors until they become habits and, eventually over time, who you are. That is the only way to alter your character.

What everyone else said. It is the time for doing. You’ve read enough.

I’ll throw out a suggestion. Google on Naikan Therapy. There’s a Wikipedia page for it. Lots of info. From a site on couple therapy:

**********

What is Naikan?

Naikan is based around three simple questions. They are:

What have I received from? (partner)

What have I given to? (partner)

What trouble and difficulties have I caused? (partner)

**********

Basically, every day you stop to contemplate on the three questions. Maybe in the evening before bed. But every day, a couple of minutes, 15 minutes, 2 hours, whatever. The daily is the important thing. It is not about the past or the future, it is about the now.

You’ll note that there is an obvious 4th question not listed. That’s because we spend the other 23 hours per day thinking about that. 😐

Google on it, see what you think. Easy to do. Time is for doing!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:27 PM, Wednesday, April 10th]

Thank you again for yiur responses and ideas. I have now researched the Naikan therapy and find it interesting. One more thing I need to do for my wife is to take a polygraph test.

My wife and I have had a couple discussions and have looked at different places that administer polygraph tests. I've been wanting my wife to weigh in on the choice of where to go. She will also go along and get to chose 3 to 5 questions that will be asked to me. At this point, we have not picked a place, life has gotten busy for both of us and I'm hoping to be able to get this done soon.