SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Long time lurker here, these forums and resources have provided a great deal of relief over the last two years I’ve spent piecing my life back together.

My spouse had a 2.5 year long affair. I won’t go into details because don’t want to bog down my question.

We started couple’s counseling a few weeks ago because I reached a place in R where I felt stuck and that we weren’t making forward progress. I told her I didn’t think I could do this anymore, that I wasn’t being given what I needed from her in order to heal the relationship. I have spent tremendous time and energy on coming to terms with and healing from her bad decisions.

As an example, I have asked her on several different occasions to read a book on R with me. Read the chapters separately then discuss together. She finds excuses each time, to the point where I no longer bring it up because it’s humiliating to be rejected when I ask for help with the recovery process. Now I will bring it up in the context of, why were you so resistant to doing such a small thing that would mean so much to me? I don’t think I even want her to read these things anymore at this point. She has said repeatedly that doing that kind of reading felt impossible because of the shame and guilt she feels for doing things so out of character and hurtful towards me.

In our first counseling session, I made reference to this issue as an example of a roadblock to recovery of our relationship in my mind. To my surprise the therapist asked, "do you just want her to do the reading because you want her to feel pain too? Of course you’ve done all this reading and research, you’re the victim".

I didn’t have the clarity of thought in the moment to stand up for myself on this point. In my opinion, reading a book or two (that focus on both sides of a situation like ours, not just my pain) is not a big ask relatively speaking. When I try to put my self in her shoes, I like to think I would be scrambling to do any and everything she asked to help heal the wounds from an A. When the counselor minimized this sticking point for me I can only imagine that it provided relief for her and helped her to feel justified in not participating.

I guess what I’m here to ask is, what does "doing the homework" look like in general for the WS? Obviously this is going to be different for everyone. Am I being unreasonable?

Positive energy to everyone on this journey!

If your wife were remorseful, she wouldn't feel this way.

The therapist has zero clue what it takes to heal from infidelity, and is doing more harm than good.

She had a 2.5 year affair. She must do the work to become a safe partner. It's not punishment. It's necessary. If she doesn't fix what is broken in her, she will do it again.

That it's been 2 years, and she is clearly telling you she's not going to do that work,the reasons don't matter.

She put a lot of work into having an affair. She doesn't seem to want to put in the work it takes to truly reconcile.

I can't say this single meeting is enough to say "the MC is bad" but most likely this is true.

The MC does recognize you are the victim, which some MCs don't even like a "victim/perpetrator" dichotomy for an affair despite the very clear lines.

I probably agree with HF that this MC needs to be jettisoned. Individual counseling for both of you is a better starting point.

That said, the recovery books aren't about feeling pain. They are about getting a shared understanding and common approach for tackling infidelity related issues.

Drop the therapist. As soon as one says something THAT stupid, they’ve outed themselves as clueless and you will not view them as helpful anymore. A therapist implying that your motive in that is just to make the wayward feel pain and shame is not qualified to work with you. I went thru a small army of MC’s. Had a very similar situation, I regret not dropping her that very moment, I never respected her (the MC) again. My IC was horrified when I shared it with him. It’s not you, you have every right to ask for that. Every fucking right in the world and there is absolutely no wrong attached to it. Believe that and don’t let it go.

It sounds like you might have a bad therapist. Asking to read a book together is not punishment. A ws who is a good rebuilder will want to work together with you to heal the relationship.

I think the overwhelming shame can be a hurdle at first. But the ws has to see that as unproductive. Guilt is going to always be there, but shame can not be the anchor holding them down from remorse for an extended period of timeS and this is the second reason I think that you have a bad therapist. They should be encouraging your ws to move past that for their own sake.

Reconciliation to me looked a lot like is grieving together (eventually) by this far out, the obstacle in charge should not be her shame.

I am sorry your ws doesn’t sound like a good rebuilder. She hasn’t done enough work to heal herself, and doesn’t seem interested in how you heal either.

This isn’t anything close to punishment. Punishment would be things outside of natural consequences. If you cheat in your spouse it’s a natural consequence that you aid in the healing of the trust, love, vulnerability, and connection. Reading books, going to therapy and being mindful and intentional are requirements, not home work, not a punishment.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:09 PM, Thursday, March 28th]

Also, welcome to SI, sorry you had to find us. Please stick around and keep posting.

On a side note, how on earth is the screen name Cool still available on this site? Nice find.

I will agree. This therapist is not competent to a BS. I would ask the therapist if they feel that "pain" should allow either if them to stop work on their relationship. I mean, should you feel "pain" when your wife refuses to read the book? Whose "pain" is more important to recognize? Should the BS give up on MC because the WW might be in "pain" recounting all the "pain" that the BS experienced from their actions. Should the BS accept the "pain" of the MC telling them that they shouldnt want the WW to do some work to help them recover?
This MC sounds like they have no idea of what you need. Its like telling an abuse victim that they should not want their abuser to see the bruises and injuries they caused because that would make you a bad person. To hell with that!
Any remorseful spouse will hate what they did. Hate it with every fiber of their being, but they would also want to help their BS, even at the expense of their own discomfort. That doesnt mean the victim gets to become the abuser. It just means that the BS will never heal until the WS accepts their piece of the shit sandwich that made and asks for as many helpings that it takes to create a healthier relationship or repair the BS.

I’m overwhelmed with the immediate reaction to this topic and feel very validated, thank you to all who are taking the time to read and respond.

Everyone is making great points, including one I hadn’t fully considered- that this therapist very well might not be a good fit for our situation.

What kind of things could be asked of a therapist to ferret out their ability/inability to help in a scenario like ours?

Ask the therapist if he/she had an affair themselves if yes or no reply demand your money back and walk out, post a negative review

[This message edited by survrus at 8:54 PM, Thursday, March 28th]

What kind of things could be asked of a therapist to ferret out their ability/inability to help in a scenario like ours?

I would ask some basic questions in the beginning, most counselors will agree to the first session being exploratory. After that any red flags they don’t share a similar value system. (For example my first IC said I shouldn’t confess my affair. I asked her what if he finds out anyway and her response was cross that bridge if I came to it. This did not align with the value system I wanted for myself moving forward)

Google about what questions to ask and wrote down the ones that you feel might be good questions for interviewing a potential therapist.

Are you guys in IC or just MC?

I did IC for a whole year before we started MC. The problem was me, not our marriage when it came to cheating. I think too many people focus on saving the relationship rather than doing healing themselves. A relationship is two parts of a whole. Get the two parts healed and you will find there is far less to address in the relationship itself.

What kind of things could be asked of a therapist to ferret out their ability/inability to help in a scenario like ours?

When is deception appropriate? (should be extremely limited or not appropriate)

Can it be appropriate as it relates to extra-marital relationships? (never)

In your experience, why do people cheat? (answers that blame the relationship/partner are wrong, it's because the cheater lacks appropriate coping skills to deal with a problem they have, likely involving self-esteem)

What part of the blame does the "uninvolved" spouse carry? (none)

When treating couples affected by infidelity, what have you found to be the most successful actions taken by the involved spouse and by the uninvolved spouse? (more open ended but might give you an idea if you are willing to do those things)

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:27 PM, Thursday, March 28th]

Hi Cool,

Welcome to SI. I spent most of my first year lurking too. Glad you finally decided to post.

A few things:

1. Your request that your spouse read a book with you and discuss the chapters is not unreasonable, regardless of what anyone - including your MC - says.

2. The fact that your spouse is refusing to comply with your reasonable requests because of her own shame, is a red flag in that she is still putting her comfort over yours. I'm sure you know that, and that's why you're feeling stuck so I will not belabour this anymore.

3. There is no one way to heal from an affair. The homework is going to be different for everyone. MC is less about giving you a numbered list of steps you must do to heal from the A, and more about figuring out how the two of you can communicate about your issues more productively.

4. MC can be really REALLY uncomfortable. I cannot tell you the number of times in MC where I was asked questions or challenged things that I said, that made me feel taken aback, dismissed, or misunderstood. Sometimes it felt super shitty in the moment, like it was implying I was wrong or unjustified in my feelings. Sometimes it was because she simply wasn't accepting what I was saying at face, and wanted me to dig into what my actual motivations were. Sometimes it was simply because I didn't know how to answer the question in the moment and felt silly for not being able to respond properly. I would typically feel DRAINED after MC. Sometimes, I would go home and cry, or sometimes I'd stew about the way some conversation went, or I'd be mad that my husband didn't stick up for me if I felt that the MC mischaracterized something I did or said. One time I was so mad, I refused to go home with my husband and insisted on walking home. It's normal to feel uncomfortable being pushed outside of your comfort zone. Usually if something makes you feel uncomfortable though, there is something to it and it's worth unpacking. I'd go home and think more about what it was that was asked, and sometimes being challenged encouraged me to look at something from another perspective and I'd change my mind or soften my stance or gain some empathy or nuance for another perspective. Other times, the the more I thought about it, the more clear I'd be on my original thought and I would be able to flesh out the 'why' a little better so that I'd be able to come back next session and explain it more thoroughly next time. You can always go back and say "I want to come back to something we talked about last time" and have further discussion.

5. Being challenged on something doesn't mean that you're necessarily wrong. Just like having strong views on something doesn't necessarily mean you're right. Often there is no objective right or wrong. An MC is not a judge who see's a disagreement between rigid viewpoints and lays down the law, declaring one person right and the other wrong. Just because the MC says something doesn't mean you have to give up on it. Typically the goal is to communicate the viewpoints to see if you can better understand one another and might be willing to try to see things from one another's perspective.

6. Consensus can't happen in an echo chamber. If you want to be told you're right, you can come here and we'll validate you all you want, but I don't know how much that will help you to convince your wife. Some people expect the MC to be a judge who will tell them they (as the BS) are right and their spouse (as the WS) is definitely wrong. They expect the MC's role to be to convince the WS of their wrongness. Some will take any challenge by their MC as a sign that the MC is a quack who is biased against them and write off MC entirely. I'm not saying there are not bad MC's out there, but I would caution you against that kind of black and white rigidity. (FYI, I'm not at all suggesting that's where you're at)..

7. You're a few weeks in. Your MC doesn't know you or your relationship that well right now. She is probably trying to get to know you, your wife, and get a feel for how the two of you each think and interact and what makes you both tick. She is also trying to get up to speed on where you are at, what the sticking points are, and why you're stuck. She's also probably trying to build rapport with both of you - your wife too. She cannot do that if she takes any one person's side all the time. In order for you both to feel invested in the process of MC, you both need to feel heard and can see things from your perspective. She knows that your wife has resisted change thus far. If your wife feels like the MC is just a third party who is going to rubber stamp every thing you say, she is not going to buy in to the process (and vice versa obviously).

8. Further to the above, I don't think the question was unreasonable - though I understand why you were taken aback and bothered by it. After a few sessions, your MC has no idea whether or not you're a reasonable person or not. She probably has some sense that your wife, wrongly or rightly, believes you are trying to punish her and she's trying to explore why she might feel that way. I know I've seen BS here who get stuck on the need to punish their spouse, so I'm sure she's seen worse. She was probably trying to determine what about the book reading mattered to you to see if there was some other way you could get what you were looking for - was it something about the books itself? Was it the act of doing it together? Was it that your wife be willing to subject herself to something she found uncomfortable in order to prove her commitment to you or to the process? If she knew what part of it mattered to you, she might be able to see if there was some way to explain it to your wife so that she might be more willing to buy in. She may have been asking simply to gage your (or your wife's) reaction to the question. Your wife may have heard what she wanted to hear, but that doesn't mean it's true and it doesn't mean that you wont come back to it.

9. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but it's worth considering whether there is some kernel of truth to the question. I know that in the early days of R, there were certainly times that I wanted my WH to do things that pushed him out of his comfort zone in R because I wanted him to feel uncomfortable. Like I wasn't being abusive or punitive, and it wasn't the ONLY reason I wanted him to do the work, but I wont deny that my desire for a bit of penance played a role. If you had asked me then, I'd probably have balked too, but for me, it's true and I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that.

10. It sounds like what matters for you is the effort. I get that. I wanted to feel like my husband was putting as much, if not more effort, as I was into healing and R. And yes, that was an impossible ask because as the BS, I spent every waking moment thinking of and obsessing about the R, in a way that my husband could not imagine. And that felt incredibly unjust and lonely and I wanted someone to share the burden of that with. Over time, I realized that what mattered more than any specific homework item, was that he was doing something. With that in mind, I remember that when we ended up stopping MC and my husband took a step back from IC, I resisted for a bit because it had been a measurable way he was demonstrating effort (and penance!) to me. Part of me was afraid if he stopped going, he'd revert back or would stop growing, but also I was worried that if I agreed we no longer needed to be going to MC, it was almost like I was agreeing that the problem was over and solved and I didn't feel that was true.

Anyhow, this was a bit of a novel and I apologize for that, but you never know who may be lurking and who may benefit I appreciate some of it may not be applicable, but as always, take what you need and leave the rest.

Best of luck.

Often there is no objective right or wrong.

This is the biggest stumbling block of MC as a tool post infidelity. Many MCs treat infidelity as a moral grey area no different than any other issue without an objective right or wrong.

To hell with the fact that any ethical or religious system worth it's salt says infidelity is wrong. Those "not worth their salt" generally state there is no meaning in life, and sure as shit wouldn't endorse societal contracts like marriage as somehow binding or creating an "ought".

Instead of giving your wife homework, ask her what she's willing to do to help you recover and rebuild the marriage. If she doesn't think reading this book and discussing it with you is beneficial, what does she suggest instead?

Carrying on a 2.5-year affair requires a lot of time, effort, and planning. She has no excuse for why she can't put a fraction of that energy into the recovery process.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:44 PM, Thursday, March 28th]

Many MCs treat infidelity as a moral grey area no different than any other issue without an objective right or wrong.

To be clear, I'm saying that when there is a disagreement or difference of opinion in a marriage, there is no objective right or wrong and the MC is not some objective 3P arbiter who makes the call. I hope by now I'm clearly on record around here as saying that affairs are wrong. If the MC was trying to convince OP that the A was acceptable or justified, I'd have written a different post.

Emergent, I think you have a characteristicly well thought out and balanced approach here. It’s true that just what OP has said is not definitive proof that the therapist is incompetent and they may be feeling out the room. That could be true. I will just say that I have yet to have that nuanced and good of an MC, so my own experience and what I’ve noticed of many others told stories are that MC’s that talk like this are far too accepting of wayward behavior and even victim blamers of BS’s. There are pre-existing beliefs that all of us bring when we get a piece of information like what OP brought to us. I appreciate you expressing yours, and I stand behind my own. OP, the saying around here is take what you need, leave the rest. You are going to have to take the best all of us have to offer from our own experiences and try to make something of it that you can use. Best of luck, genuinely.

To be clear, I'm saying that when there is a disagreement or difference of opinion in a marriage, there is no objective right or wrong and the MC is not some objective 3P arbiter who makes the call. I hope by now I'm clearly on record around here as saying that affairs are wrong. If the MC was trying to convince OP that the A was acceptable or justified, I'd have written a different post.

I agree with almost everything you wrote about MC and the limitations of MC. Also that many MCs will not be a third party arbiter making decisions about what is right and wrong, even when it IS objectively obvious, and that limitation is potentially very damaging in infidelity recovery. I understand why many people (and myself now with first hand experience) recommend holding off on MC until it's a tool that makes sense to apply.

It works best to have MC after you have two honest dealers and your WS has already gotten on the same page in terms of the wrongness of the A. Otherwise the MC is going to give something close to equal weight to WS bullshit spinning as to the information provided in good faith by the BS.

Otherwise the MC is going to give something close to equal weight to WS bullshit spinning as to the information provided in good faith by the BS.

Equal or more weight even. I had the experience that was similar to OP. I had asked my wife something about the A in MC and the answer was wildly implausible. I did not accept it, and the MC’s response was (I shit you not) "Well, she is telling the truth and you don’t believe her, so where do we go from here?" I, like OP, was stunned and didn’t know what to say. But after reflecting on it, and probably processing it here, came back to the next session and told her that I had a problem with her acting as that supposed 3rd party judge of "Truth" and using that word about what my wife was saying. I said she might say something like "she’s giving an answer and you don’t believe it", I could have lived with that. I also pointed out that my wife could very well be lying to herself. The response I got from the MC? (I SHIT YOU NOT) was "sounds like you are trying to tell me how to do my job". Every minute spent with that MC after that line was a waste of time, she completely lost me with that bullshit. And she wasn’t even the worst MC we’ve had.

There are some really bad therapists out there, OP. Tread carefully if you are going to do MC. The marriage didn’t cheat, your wife did.

She’s probably not interested in doing something basic like reading a book because she knows you won’t leave.

And fire that MC. Find someone that specializes in infidelity and trauma.

To my surprise the therapist asked, "do you just want her to do the reading because you want her to feel pain too? Of course you’ve done all this reading and research, you’re the victim".

Answer:
Yes. I want her to "feel" and empathize with my pain.

Reading the book isn't a punishment and it's super sad that it would ever be characterized that way.

Affairs--on face--require a lack of empathy. The WS must turn down (or off) their empathy and turn up their justifications and their self focus. Otherwise, the ethical rub of cheating on your partner and the shame and guilt would ruin the payoff.

So, it's not only okay, but necessary for the BS to empathize with the pain of a BS--not through punishment but through working to gain understanding. Thus, reading the book and discussing it.

As for the rest? As others have pointed out, affairs require time, focus, and energy. Wouldn't a WS who wants to repair and heal be willing to direct some time, focus, and energy to that effort?

And if not...then I guess you can draw some conclusions.