SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have been in IC for over a year, him too.

One thing that I have been struggling with throughout therapy is my acceptance of fWH having opposite sex friends or acquaintances. I simply CANNOT do it. I have this roadblock in my head, this overwhelming fear that he won’t be able to maintain it as "just friends" - that HE will start to view it as more than friends. EVEN THOUGH of all the female friends he has, NONE have crossed that line. They are truly just friends. I know it’s a trigger for me. It’s been a trigger. I know this is a huge trust issue for me too. I manage to keep a lid on all this and then dump all my feelings out in IC.

The latest row WH and I just had was yesterday. So he started a new job and he’s in his 3rd wk of orientation. This Friday the new recruits will get their shift assignments. There are 4 shifts. Naturally one would want to get the "best" shift and being the new guy, he doesn’t really know which one to request. They have to do a "wish list" and number from highest to lowest the order of preference. Now backstory here. There was a female medic who worked briefly w him at his other job. She’s now at this department. So he asked her how should I list my preferences? And so she told him - and listed her shift as the top preference. So he went off her recommendations - naturally she’s going to list her shift as the best one and that’s the one he chose as his #1. And I called him out on that. I was like OF COURSE YOU PICKED HER SHIFT! I KNOW none of this makes any sense to normal people LOL. But now I’m paralyzed with fear - what if he gets her shift, what if they end up working on the same ambulance, same station? It’s like I know what is reasonable and makes sense, but my body keeps reminding me - remember? His A started off as just friends; Remember? His EA started off as just friends. Heck that EA - she was MY friend too. He is constantly telling me I have nothing to fear. He is fully transparent, I have access to all the things. So this female co-worker is like literally 20 yrs younger, she’s gorgeous. She’s on instagram and they’re friends. I have noticed that she likes to post very provocative pictures on her IG - poses where she leans wayyyy over so you can catch some cleavage. And dozens of men "like" her photos. I mean hell if I was 20yrs younger I’d flaunt my assets too. Maybe. 🤔.

Anyway I use his iPad to read my books on the kindle app. When I look at his IG - which is on the iPad - it’s nothing but fitness models, cross fit athletes, gorgeous, young, beautiful women - who mostly pose with their ass hanging out, boobs hanging out. Which ok, fine I get it. They’re selling something and the more likes and followers helps. However good lord why does husband have to like and ogle every damn photo. Including this girl’s pics?? So what’s my issue? That I don’t like him looking at pretty half naked women or that I don’t like him looking at HER provocative photos? He said that he has work relationships and that’s all they are work relationships and nothing more. I’m like okay, be friends AT WORK. Why must you be social media friends too? I mean I work too outside the home. I have a great job and I work with males and females. But I am NOT Facebook or Instagram friends with any of my male co workers. And I don’t give out my phone number for co workers to text. We use outlook or teams for messages. Is it the industry?? I’m in higher education/IT…he’s a first responder. He tells me that it’s different in his line of work. Is it really???

I feel like I’m going in circles and I’ll never get out of this rut. I feel like I’ll NEVER be okay with him having opposite sex friendships. It was NEVER this way when he was active duty (military) - prob because at that time, there were no women in combat arms. So he wasn’t deploying in co-ed groups. It wasn’t until infidelity visited my doorstep that I now feel so paralyzed with this fear that a friend isn’t really just a friend. One thing husband has a hard time with is enforcing boundaries. He likes to be seen as the good guy, and the thought of not being friends or being friendly with a female makes him look like an A-hole. Which to me I could care less - that’s the boundary, be an asshole if it means protecting me, us. I know he’s working on this - has been working on this and has made progress. So I’m like is this still a ME problem?? He’s not texting women, not going out to lunch with them, nothing like that. He’s almost done w/ his degree (he graduates in May) and his classmates have a group text - males and females and that doesn’t bother me. I just hate feeling like this. I feel like I’ll never heal. I don’t like to be labeled "jealous" either. And that is what this feels like. Like I obsess over their looks and compare. Why do I do this??

[This message edited by Blackbird25 at 9:10 PM, Tuesday, April 2nd]

Gently, I think you’re viewing this the wrong way. You’re looking at this like it’s a YOU problem, when in reality, it’s a HIM problem. Your husband has cheated more than once with someone who has started off as a friends, and he’s ogling his young female coworkers on social media and seeking out life advice from someone that he’s not married to. He may not be taking them out for lunch, but his boundaries are clearly GARBAGE. I think you’re right to be uncomfortable and I don’t think you should be lamenting your inability to accept something I would objectively call unacceptable. He's acting like a 22 year old with no real life experience, has he read Not Just Friends?

For most of us, having opposite-sex colleagues is unavoidable, but opposite-sex colleagues are not the same as opposite sex friends, and he's very obviously blurring those lines. If he were protective of the marriage, he should WANT to have healthy boundaries in place for your comfort. To prove to you that he's grown up and changed. The fact that he’s more worried about looking like an A-hole by being perceived as impolite by some colleague suggests to me that he is still valuing the way he is perceived by others before what you think and what he knows is right. Caring that much about the impressions of others means that he is very much still wayward in his mindset, even if he is not actively cheating. There is a confidence that comes from living your values and it does not sound like he’s reached that place yet.

Thank you emergent for validating everything I have been feeling. It’s something that I’ve discussed at length in IC. And you’re absolutely spot on that his boundaries are garbage. And he knows this. And guess what shift he landed on? Yep, hers. Granted it’s not her station. And there are 1500 fire and EMS personnel in the whole dept/city. So there’s that. If it’s strictly a work relationship then I would have been able to accept that. But he blew through the boundary and now ANY friendship, relationship makes me skittish. There are other women who he’s been able to maintain a professional relationship with. But this one I hate already. ESPECIALLY given his history. This just reiterates the fact that healing isn’t linear and I still have triggers. I’m struggling with finding the right way to say what I feel. When I’m in IC and practice having these conversations with WH I am very articulate. When I try in person I trip over my words. I feel stuck.

It is a reasonable,normal,and healthy boundary to tell a ws no friends of the opposite sex,ad a requirement for reconciliation.

I agree..this is a him problem,not a you problem.

I agree with everything Emergent said. Are you sure you really want to deal with him doing his social media this way. I definitely could not cope with that, and as Emergent said I’m not sure you should cope with that.

As far as the schedule thing, I understand. we went through that-certain days/certain offices. He had kind of "chosen" to have three of his days with a female coworker friend. It was platonic-she’s super masculine & not his type but I just couldn’t. Now that I’m feeling a lot better it probably wouldn’t be such a big deal but where I was a year and a half ago…no. I just said he had to change it. It was a little weird. The coworker definitely knew he was switching his whole schedule around so as to NOT be with her, his former friend. Since then she’s pretty cold to him. I think she was offended and I can understand why. But I was just an emotional puddle at that point. I made the request and he honored it.

Then again…my husband wasn’t in a new job. So I’m sure he’s not really in a position to be asking for much. I’m sorry this must be very hard for you. Some triggers are unavoidable. Maybe his shift is one of those. But maybe he could compromise and stop being so crummy liking girls on social media if you compromise about the shift. On some level it’s about them showing they are willing to respect your concerns (in light of the fact they did the exact opposite of that with the cheating).

Wishing you strength…..

Yeah I don’t friend colleagues on Social Media - it’s just not a smart thing to do. Without being a cheater, I realize that we need boundaries between personal life and work life.

The work schedule is not the problem. His consistent blurring of boundaries with no consideration of how it affects you is the problem. And your triggers at just one year out- totally normal.

Have you talked to him about his IG use?

When I’m in IC and practice having these conversations with WH I am very articulate. When I try in person I trip over my words. I feel stuck.

What about writing him a note? He can read it, then you can discuss it.

Bare minimum, I'd insist that he unfollow the colleague on Insta. It's good practice to keep your work life and your private life separate, especially for a man with blurry boundaries. Don't poop where you eat, Mr. Blackbird.

Bearly Breathing,
We actually just had a sit down, calm discussion. I told him this was not a ME problem. I knew it wasn’t, he did too. He owned it. I always get the "this is the culture of Fire, Police, EMS, etc", and "you don’t understand the way things work." Well I’ll give him that. I may not fully understand. But I’ll NEVER be okay with these friendships. Like emergent said, opposite sex colleagues are NOT the same as opposite sex friendships. In this line of work, you don’t always get to pick your partners; if a pt is in need of life saving measures, the person next to you may be of the opposite sex. I get all of that. My point today with him is that yes go have your WORK relationships, but he has to be mindful of his boundaries. Someone said you protect what you love. I’m not feeling that he’s protecting me. We have a lot of things to hash out still but today was progress. I just think that sometimes I should be FURTHER along in feeling better. His EA in Dec 2022 was 16 mos ago. So maybe I need to give myself some grace. My IC keeps telling me to be patient with the process. Someone asked if he read Not Just Friends. Yes, like 10 yrs ago! I’m actually re-reading it myself right now. He’s not actively cheating but he still has wayward tendencies and thought patterns. We’re not in MC - I didn’t want to dive into that right away. But maybe that’s the next step.

Sacred,
For all the things that were left unsaid this evening in our discussion, I am going to do just that. Write it all out and we’ll then talk about it. I did insist on him unfollowing the colleague on insta though. I won’t back down from that.

This might go all over the place...

I get it and understand your stance.
However...

If your husband was an actively recovering alcoholic one thing he would be working at would be avoiding places that offer alcohol. If you were taking part in his sobriety that might include you having a dry house. If this was the scenario and your husbands work was having a night out – he would find an excuse and stay away, because he knows they will be offering Sambuca’s, Jägermeister’s and free beer. The reasoning is that even though it would only take him twenty minutest to go to the nearest liquor store those twenty minutes would give him time to reflect and maybe even prevent an impulse relapse.
With time – as he gets stronger in his sobriety – he’s fine with you having a drink with your dinner. He’s fine with there being a bottle of gin in the house. He might even be OK with going to the company-dinner, but he will leave early and all the time you will be worried.
A recovered alcoholic... He is confident enough in his sobriety to go to bars with colleagues and is happy with his soda-water. You are confident with him because you know he’s going to an AA meeting today, and he NEVER would attend if drunk.

Your husband hasn’t reached that stage, and your relationship hasn’t reached that stage...
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It’s unavoidable that he works with people of the opposite sex. There is no automatic deduction that this will lead to an affair. It’s also near-unavoidable that people that work together closely create some form of relationship. I spent hundreds of hours in police-vehicles with my colleagues – male and female – and had a comfortable relationship with them. You just know the line – what you can discuss and what should remain private.
There is this misunderstanding that everyone we are friendly with are "friends". I have dozens and maybe even hundreds of acquaintances. People that I might stop and have a coffee or drink with. A chat in the mall if we have a chance meeting. Might remember his/her spouse name and that he/she is a plumber or whatever. But friends – as in someone that will be the first to call when I need support – maybe ten.
Your husband can have work acquaintances. He can even friend them on social media.

"this is the culture of Fire, Police, EMS, etc"
No... This is the culture he’s looking for and creating. The old male-dominated "look at that ass" and wolf-whistle culture has been systematically dealt with in most places. I am 100% certain that’s the case in a place with 1500 people like you describe. Ask him to show you the HR guidebook. I’m 90% certain there is a chapter about sexual harassment and appropriate behavior.
I don’t think I was in some unicorn type police department, but I wasn’t aware of any hanky-panky between the women officers (and office staff) and the male officers. We didn’t cruise around whistling at some fine tail, there weren’t’ porn-magazines in the break-room. The working-girls we dealt with would jokingly offer us freebies, but I wasn’t aware of any officer taking them up on that. Yes – there were divorces and I heard rumors of affairs and what not. But that tended to be off-duty, and not between coworkers. Heck... I think most of it was the type I experienced where a law-enforcement officer was cheated on...

--
I am active on social media. I have most of my wife’s friends on my account and vice-versa. For some years I had the daughter of my wife’s friend as a friend on Facebook. When she started posting pictures of her 16-18 year old self wearing close to nothing and/or with the fish-lips and pouting that is supposedly sexy... off my friend-list. Like I told my wife – it’s not appropriate that I see these pics and think them too sexy, but she – the young woman – is totally free to post them. The problem was more me than her.

--
His fetish for fitness models. Only female? He’s not looking at the cross-fit guys and wondering how he can change his keg into a sixpack? I would call him out on that. I can get an obsession with healthy, fit and strong. But if he’s only looking at women he’s looking a lot more between the biceps rather than the muscle-structure.

Its totally fair for you to tell him this bothers you, as do his responses about how this "culture" expects this friendly intimacy. Remind him of his past, and that he has to prioritize his goals. Remind him that all it takes is for him to let you know he wants to have dozens of friends and spend his life with a stiffy while googling photoshoped blonde beauties with immense bazoongas and then set you free from any expectations you might have to him as a decent, moral husband.

6 years into R here and my husband respects me enough (now) to not have opposite sex friendships. He has a cordial,
Polite working relationship with colleagues, but that’s it. He avoids any outside communication with them. I don’t blame you at all.

into R here and my husband respects me enough (now) to not have opposite sex friendships. He has a cordial,
Polite working relationship with colleagues, but that’s it. He avoids any outside communication with them. I don’t blame you at all.

^^Ditto to what undersideofhell said except I am 18 years out.

And...my husband does not have any social media accounts, he does have linkedin but that's it, and I have the PW if I ever wanted to take a look.

After D-Day and an A with a COW, he distanced himself from all female employees. Stopped having conversations with them unless it was on a professional basis. No chit chatting at the water cooler about kids and the weather. Never, ever had one on one meetings with them and stopped socializing on the job for years until I felt comfortable when it was all men.

Bigger makes some great points. Your husband just isn't there yet with understanding and maintaining boundaries.

I'm sorry, maybe a good counselor will help him figure out where to draw the line with other women.

What's he working on in IC?

Hard Knocks,
Boundaries, FOO, and combat PTSD.
His therapist specializes in trauma therapy and is amazing. Boundaries for WH has been CHALLENGING. Back story - after he retired from the military in 2011 (served active duty over 20 yrs, combat infantryman) he struggled with acclimation to civilian life. He was a complete mess when he retired - he says he went from "hero to zero" and was just lost. He was spiraling from multiple deployments, survivors guilt, losing close friends, figuring life out post-army. This man has been in therapy since 2007 after watching his convoy blow up and losing his best friend in the BFV in front of him. That year he was in the command center and witnessed a live stream from a drone where 10 of his soldiers, including the LTC were killed in a horrific fiery helicopter accident. After retirement in 2011 I became his caregiver because he was suffering so much, couldn’t work, couldn’t leave the house, he was spiraling so bad. And my prize for putting my life on hold and quitting my job, and homeschooling the youngest because WH was so extremely paranoid that something would happen to our son - was he reconnected w AP on FB had an affair, wanted to divorce me and marry her. Took a lot of work on his part to figure things out in therapy. We were in a great place and then in 2021 he decided he was ready to return to the workforce and went back to school to become a paramedic. He’s been back to work since Jan 2021 working EMS. It’s been since he’s been back at work that he just blows through these boundaries. It’s been a source of frustration for me. Therapist is helping him navigate and setting healthy work-life boundaries but he’s been frustratingly blowing through them because he’s so desperate to want to be accepted and liked by his peers. Sigh.

BB,

As someone who works/worked in military/police and similar jobs, yes it is a culture but doesn’t mean your WH has to be part of that culture.

I have had female coworkers hit on me, and it’s an easy shut down. I just talked about my W in glowing terms, or something similar. Never followed any female coworkers on SM that wasn’t strictly work related (such as a professional FB page for my unit). Never text anything to them other than work. (In the military texting outside of duty hours is common but it was always about work).

My WW was always the kind of woman who seemed to have more guy friends than girls. I was ok with it because I didn’t see anything shady. Then AP came along. Now, post A and in R, she no longer has any one on one convos with any previous guy friends (all are married), no more one on one hanging out etc. Never again will she make a friendship with another guy. She was the one who told me she would do this as part of protecting our marriage, respecting me, and to prove that she was all in. She only has girlfriends now and she’s actually happier and has more meaningful relationships with them. Probably a lot to unpack with that but that’s not the point.

Also, even if your WH hadn’t cheated, you have every right to voice your opinion/concern and enforce the boundary about his SM accounts. My WW is very anti porn, and she views it as cheating (this is pre A). I respected her and haven’t looked at it since being married. It’s really not difficult. Your WH just has to actually give a damn and sacrifice a small thing for you.

So, we are seven years out from my affair. I took an absence from working the last three years. Partially so we could travel, but also after the shit show of my affair and then his, I couldn’t really focus on my job to the extent it deserved. So we took a break and have been pretty much together 24/7. He had a few work trips and I occasionally came home and saw friends so it wasn’t like we never were apart, but it was the norm we were home together.

Now I am reentering the workforce. And even now, 7 years later, he wanted to sit down and kind of discuss what my thoughts were in terms of ground rules. I have never had male friends our entire marriage and my affair was work-related. So he had every right to see if I had thought through boundaries and what’s appropriate. We both consider ourselves happily reconciled, and it’s been many years, and it’s still valid thoughts and questions.

So this is it a you issue, and it is not a time frame issue. This is an issue he caused and like you said should understand and respect your trepidation. Honestly, I don’t see why there is a need for opposite sex friendships. Can’t avoid having opposite sex colleagues, but you do not need to be friends in social media. If that puts him in a weird place I think he should consider getting rid of social media altogether so he doesn’t even have to navigate unfriending or declining friend requests. No one really needs social media, not when you weigh it against having your spouse or family.

You have given him a tremendous gift in trying to work through this, he is not appreciating what that gift takes from you. Your feelings are not only valid, his action to protect you is necessary and should be top priority, no questions asked.

A quick update. WH had IC today (video/telehealth) during his lunch break from new job orientation. Shocked bc he called and requested an "emergency" session. And was granted one! Wow.

So color me SHOCKED but after IC, he texts me to tell me that his IC affirmed my boundary -no OS friends, colleagues are fine AT WORK, keep work at work and private life private. Not be SM friends. So I’m home after work and he’s in the garage working out and I’m cooking dinner and he has his phone on the counter. So of course I check and he has unfollowed IG girl AND a whole host of other skanky accounts. WITHOUT me reminding him or asking him to do that.

I took Sacred's advice and wrote a letter and then the letter turned into 9 pages and so I said F it. Can’t do it. Decided to just talk face to face and that was much better. So again, progress. We talked about social media and is it necessary to even have it? I rarely use it but his service has a FB and IG page. And I’m okay with him keeping it. I truly believe he’s trying and I think today’s IC helped drive that point home on what is acceptable. I hate that he can’t come to these conclusions all on his own though.

[This message edited by Blackbird25 at 12:13 AM, Thursday, April 4th]

Sad to see he doesn’t get the disrespect he has shown you.

So sorry for you.

What jumps out at me is the need for his social media over the needs to keep his wife safe. He prioritizes his ego over your feelings.

How sad.

1st Wife,
I totally agree with you. It's very sad. I appreciate that he took the initiative to reach out to his IC and asked for an "emergency" appointment - and got one. He shared more details with me last night and said that his therapist validated much of what I was feeling. She told him something that was mentioned in this thread - opposite sex colleagues doesn't equate to opposite sex friendships. You can be one without the other. It's not a bad thing to keep work life and private life separate - which is what I've been asking him to do. Fine be work friends AT WORK, but not on SM, no texting, no liking half naked pics of your coworkers. She stressed a healthy work-life balance and what that meant for him and for us. AND they discussed boundaries and why he keeps blowing through all of the ones I've set. He's everybody's friend, people genuinely like him - he's funny, he's articulate, he's smart, he is witty, he gets along with everyone. He likes being that person, and shutting people down when they get too close is something he struggles with. BUT because he doesn't shut down people getting too close, too chummy, then it spills over into our marriage, our life. His obsession to be liked by all is hurting his marriage, is hurting me. He unfollowed that girl and removed her as one of his followers and did the same with other skanky accounts. Now, I realize that him and the girl work for the same fire department, and on the same shift, and there's a good chance that they'll run into each other from time to time. The issue isn't that he can't have work acquaintances, the issue is I need him to keep everyone at arm's length and keep work acquaintances WORK ACQUAINTANCES. So no sharing of personal information, I don't care that they have 2.5 kids, a house w/ a white picket fence and a dog named Ruffy. I don't care to know about anyone's personal life. When he was in school, he was friends w/ this one girl - they had this study group, they'd hang out at break time; she was like 25 yrs his junior and I think he wanted to mentor her, help be like this father figure to her. No. Just no. She has a dad, she doesn't need another one. One day he told me, Oh B is getting a divorce. Red flag. I said, how do you know this? Everyone in class knows about it, she talks about it all the time. Who cares. You don't need to become invested in her life. She's getting a divorce, that is HER problem, not yours. You don't need to be anyone's shoulder to cry on. No. He was angry with me then because it meant he had to push her away - when he felt that she needed to talk to someone. I'm like No. What happens is that the boundary is torn down and all of a sudden we have this girl texting and asking for advice. So all the while he's pouring into this friendship, and being a supportive friend, and then trying to go behind my back w/ AP #2 (see below, backstory), he's neglecting me, he's not spending time talking to me, communicating with me. He's tired from all the advice he's doling out to all these people and I'm stuck with, well, nothing. He has nothing left in the tank for me because he's been spending all his time being there for everyone else, investing in his new friendships, and taking me for granted. For the first time in our marriage I told him that I would be okay if I had to walk away from this marriage. I love him, I really do - he's an excellent provider, he has sacrificed his ass off to give us a great life - our kids are all college graduates, two with advanced degree (1 is a dr), the youngest is currently in grad school studying OF ALL THINGS psychology and wants to be a clinical psychologist (PsyD). We have a brand new home, little debt, great careers. I literally want for nothing in terms of material things - but I don't want all that if I can't have HIM, his whole heart, invested in me. Call me selfish but I don't want him knowing other people's business or him being a helper friend, shoulder to cry on, I don't want him to be that for anyone else but me and our kids, our immediate family. So yes, it's sad that he doesn't get that what he's doing is disrespectful to me.

I literally thought that this was a "ME" problem and I was the one that needed to get over him having friends. When in reality, he needs to secure his boundaries and protect what he loves, US.

(Backstory - AP#1 was an old HS classmate that he reconnected with on FB back in 2012 after he had retired from serving over 20 yrs in the army; we spent YEARS recovering from that and in reconciliation and felt that we were in a really good place when he decided he wanted to go back to school in 2021 to pursue a 2nd career. AP#2 happened in Dec 2022; he reached out to reconnect to an old friend that he grew up with and they started chatting about meeting up for lunch, he was heaping on the charm, compliments, flirting and she was playing right along. I caught wind of this about 7-10 days after it started and blew the lid right off before it got any further. She was my friend to so it was a double betrayal. It makes me very stressed out when he's texting "friends".)

You describe my H very much like your H.

Everyone likes him.

Everyone’s friend.

I call it the Knight in Shining Armor syndrome. Wants to rescue every stray or down trodden or needy person. Can’t say no. Can’t see why boundaries are necessary.

My H did not have a military career and doesn’t have social media but in most respects, he’s the same as your H (without the PTSD).

My H’s attitude when I expressed my displeasure with his "friends" was to react by saying I couldn’t tell him who to be friends with.

Funny how when I decided to D him after dday2 of affair 2 (typical midlife crisis affair) that he suddenly "got the message". And admits he was very disrespectful to me by putting his selfish ego first.

Hoping your H starts to get it. And fast. Because if it were me I would be executing my exit plan. I’m a "take no crap" kind of person now.