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A lot of the time I feel like a decent amount of progress has been made by WH and then with just one comment I feel like I am all wrong about that.

We have been going through a rough patch recently. Discussion turned argument ensues, I start spinning, he withdraws and then starts with the self-loathing.

Some time later I make a comment, "can you not think of one positive thing about yourself"? He thinks for a moment- "I’m loyal".
Say whatttt?? I had no comment. I was dumbfounded. He did not even realize the irony in the comment. Without my asking, he expanded his thoughts and I see where his mind was at and "loyal" made sense in that one particular aspect but geesh. What a disconnect there. It was deflating.

I’m not looking for advice or anything. I just wanted to share with folks who get it- how WS can be so oblivious- And how one seemingly small comment can really set you back and make you question everything.

I know you weren’t asking for advice, but I want to say the way we best made progress on this issue was learning to "fight" differently. We went for the Gottman retreat and then followed up with MC. If you have certain rules of engagement, and follow them, it helps keep the spiral lower.

What I am about to say isn’t really for new bs/ws but I see you are a few years in. This is exactly when we started working on this.

That spiral just makes it hard for either person to be clearheaded. And when that happens after infidelity, it keeps you in separate teams. As the ws it felt like nothing I ever said was going to be right again and made me feel hopeless in our marriage. It seemed like he was always just adding to this big folder of reasons I am unloveable.

And he was just really exhausted and the hope, don’t hope struggle just got more intense.

We finally said it’s always been us against the problem, let’s go back to that. We practiced the new skills we learned at Gottman and MC (though you can get a lot just from his books) and we would remind each other as needed "this is the problem, it’s us against the problem" and it didn’t go neatly Everytime, but it did move us in the right direction.

No one is a robot, feelings are very heated and loaded after infidelity. I remember after his affair discovering so many things that wouldn’t bother me before would piss me off to no end. So again we were floundering on being on the same team. But after things stabilized we went back to practicing. I said less hurtful things to him, he said less stupid things to me, and there was less of these things to hold onto or point at.

I totally understand how infuriating things can get but we also had to learn taking breaks when we saw signs it was headed in the wrong direction.

LikeI said we still fail at this, but if we are cutting it even by half it’s an improvement.

The other thing we do differently is we communicate a lot more deeply in between spats. That has also helped us empathize with each other more when it’s heated because we are more closely connected to where the other persons head is at. That has taken far more practice and dedication that probably anything else in our reconciliation.

This may not fit your situation but I wrote it out in case it helps someone.

I get it.

I was 13-14 years into R when my H wanted to resume Thursday nights out with his work friends, which is where his A started. The AP was there on some nights, but the group was big enough (30ish people) that they didn't have to interact. I wasn't super comfy with it, but I wasn't uncomfy enough to ask him not to go. IMO, he needed to mingle for political work reasons. Also, I felt that he had earned my trust over the years.

I asked him what he would do if the AP was there and tried to talk with him, or tried to join a group conversation that he was part of. He said he didn't know, that he'd handle it if it happened. I wanted a preset plan. I wanted to know if he'd walk away if she joined the convo. I wanted to know what he'd do if she followed him to the bathroom and tried to talk with him privately. He balked and was pissy about me still not trusting him to handle it on his own in real time, and he pushed back. What he didn't get was that I needed to have that conversation, and for him to have a plan, or at least the awareness that it could become an issue, in order to feel secure. The contention went on for too long - a couple of weeks. In the end, he decided that being at odds with me about it wasn't worth it and he stopped going. He just stopped going rather than humbling himself to reassure me. And that never sat right with me. It was out of character.

I was thinking about that incident just yesterday. One wrong step like that can really throw the BS for a loop and cause distrust. I still wonder if maybe something happened, and then he got himself too deep in the hole by waiting too long to tell me about it. Intellectually, I don't think so. He's been truthful about everything else. But that misstep still makes me wonder...

I can see both sides of that sacred. I would want the same conversation, though I don’t know if I could agree for him to go join a group where AP was. I think a lot of your dynamic there that we talked about yesterday makes sense. She can never really be out of sight out of mind.

I personally would not willingly go where the ap is. I know you guys are way further out than we are but I could never envision it being okay with either of us. Asking for the conversation I feel was generous of you.

However, there are element here as the ws that I can see it becomes more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t think it’s a misstep he decided not to go. In the end he could see it was likely to lead to more issues and he wisely decided to let it go. I also can see if he has been honest and faithful for 14 years at that point it would feel like a gigantic step back to think you don’t have trust.

Personally, I think letting him go at all demonstrated strong trust. But as a ws I wouldn’t do something that my h’s full trust wasn’t in. He was frustrated not to have it because he wanted to keep his happy life and resume his activity. That talk signaled to him he couldn’t have both. And I do think it probably would have ended up that way.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:46 PM, Wednesday, May 8th]

But as a ws I wouldn’t do something that my h’s full trust wasn’t in.

This is the care that I think so many of us look for. I've tried explaining this to my WH before, but he doesn't get it.

We used to have greyhounds and they were the sweetest dogs, but really really big -- 80 lbs and really tall. So even though I knew they wouldn't hurt a fly, I knew people were scared of them because of their size. Because I knew they could frighten people, I took extra caution with them around others. That is the kind of proactivity I would love to see in my WH.

It's those careless comments or careless actions that make me say, "Wait, what?" and wonder if he truly understand and is capable of change.

[This message edited by SadieMae at 7:29 PM, Wednesday, May 8th]

I think a lot of your dynamic there that we talked about yesterday makes sense. She can never really be out of sight out of mind.

There was a weird dynamic to it, in that I wanted HER to see that I was secure enough to let him go and wasn't worried about her being able to get to him. I almost WANTED her to try to talk to him so that she could get shot down. It's a competitive thing.

I get what you're saying, but the weirdness with him was the way my gut perceived his obstinate behavior as shifty. He and I can talk deeply and frankly about a lot of things, but on this he was just being a stubborn weirdo with shifty eyes. It probably is just exactly as he explained - that he was exasperated about not being trusted fully after so long and taking a stand against having to jump through hoops - and a little afraid of me getting spun up which is probably why he looked like a rat in the corner, but I really didn't like the vibe.

Hikingout, Thank you! You read between the lines here and your comments are very relatable and helpful. I had started reading one of Gottmans books prior to the A because our marriage had not been good for a while. I think we do need to address the things that you mentioned.

We both lose it so quickly now. And it’s like now that the A is not front and center and life has resumed (so to speak) some of the pre-A issues are creeping back in, but with a dose of zero tolerance from me and him feeling hopeless when I bring any issue to the table. I feel a wall building. Oddly it almost feels like we were closer in the first 18 months after the A than we are now.

SacredSoul- I think your request for a plan was more than reasonable and I also would have felt bothered by his lack of providing that reassurance. And it may have been a considerate gesture that he decided to scrap the get together but considering he was pissy about it I would feel like it was from a place of not wanting to be bothered by your requests, when it would have been better if he wanted you to feel reassured and felt the best way to do that was to stop going. Or maybe it was a combination? And I totally get the competition thing too!

IMO, my W's self-loathing was a way of distancing herself from a real issue. After a while, I told her I wasn't going to listen to her beat herself up, and she had to talk with her IC. I don't know if she called her IC immediately after I ended the conversation, but at least I didn't have to listen to her beat herself up.

If your WS's self-loathing is his way of warding off something, maybe the same tactic will work for you.

it may have been a considerate gesture that he decided to scrap the get together but considering he was pissy about it I would feel like it was from a place of not wanting to be bothered by your requests, when it would have been better if he wanted you to feel reassured and felt the best way to do that was to stop going.

I can’t speak for sacred’s husband, but as a reformed ws I want to speak to this from my perspective.

I am not a robot. I get pissy about things too. I am human and I get frustrated. I don’t like feeling misunderstood is a big one for me.

Sometimes this can still step into the "but you had an affair" realm. Being remorseful does not mean being perfect. To a certain extent h and I are responsible for managing our individual triggers. We can provide each other comfort but at the end of the day the person having it is the only one who can fully release it.

Sometimes my frustration is at myself for causing it all in the first place. One goal in reconciling to me is that the end result is that the ws gains back equal footing in the marriage.

I also want to point out that many ws are people pleasers who have to learn boundaries. I am one of them, and so I don’t use the affair as a reason to keep people pleasing. I have boundaries now. They are in place to protect my happiness so I don’t get to the place I found myself in when I was ready to say "fuck it" to my marriage.

I will not disrupt his trust. I will love him to the best of my ability. I will listen and be vulnerable and I have come a long way…but at some point it’s not "ws behavior" to be pissy about something. Especially in situations where there can’t be a win win like in Mr. Sacreds situation. Faced with that, I might be frustrated that I can’t do x, even after all the work and effort, but I gladly choose the marriage.

I can see they are my consequence for decisions I made, but initially I may have an emotional reaction before logic sets in. It’s human nature.

I didn’t say this really to disagree with sacred, she knows her husband and he is not me.

I am saying this because maybe it will help to know that hikingout ain’t perfect, not by a landslide and neither will be your ws even when you are reconciled. It’s up to you to determine what level of change is acceptable to you so that guides your steps. Learning to communicate has been probably one of my biggest growth areas, but I can still have bad moments or make mistakes. In those isolated times it doesn’t mean I am unremorseful or that I don’t care how he feels.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:00 PM, Thursday, May 9th]

hiking, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input and advice. It's made a huge difference for me, just in the last 24 hours.

I listened to a little bit of The Power of Now yesterday and it invigorated me. Today, as thoughts about the AP came into my head, I tried to just observe what was happening up there without passing judgment. And then I told my H about it, which sparked a great conversation.

And it may have been a considerate gesture that he decided to scrap the get together but considering he was pissy about it I would feel like it was from a place of not wanting to be bothered by your requests, when it would have been better if he wanted you to feel reassured and felt the best way to do that was to stop going. Or maybe it was a combination?

I asked him about the issue I wrote about above. What I had asked him back then was, "What will you do if AP approaches you? Can we please play this out a bit?" His recollection of it is that I was trying to create a script for him of what he should do or say to her in different types of attempted contact (group or private) and he was afraid that he would go off script and would fail. I didn't ask for a script, but that's the way he took it. Also, I don't recall details, but that has happened with us before (not necessarily infidelity related) where we'll talk about something, agree about how to handle it, he'll fudge it up and say or do something that sounded similar to his ears but wasn't quite right, and I'll be like "WTF, dude?" (Maybe that's just marriage in a nutshell. lol)

He said that when the AP was there at those get-togethers, he deliberately kept a pool table in between them. Their coworkers knew the history and seemed to be running interference, too. They were talking about work-related stuff in AP's area of expertise, and didn't call her over to join the conversation like they would have ordinarily. He said it was weird. That could partially be why he stopped going, too, along with the contention with me not being worth it.

I also told him about how the competition in my brain with the AP is constant, and how I'm hopefully starting to learn how to put that to rest. It's crazy. Like, I'm really good at Wordle and the puzzle games on NYT, and every time I win, I think "Suck on that, bitch." Like, what? That's nuts. I run lots of things that I do through a filter of what she might see and think. I want to be better than her in every way.

Anyway.

Oddly it almost feels like we were closer in the first 18 months after the A than we are now.

I think that's pretty normal, really. The excitement of the danger has lost its oomph and now you're left with just the reality of the relationship, if that makes sense.

Sisoon, Thanks for your suggestion. I definitely think his self loathing is in part a way to distract from the main issue. And it’s effective. Unfortunately no therapist in the picture right now.

Hikingout, I hear you and I think the whole "well you had an affair" attitude is something I struggle with. I don’t verbalize that statement much (if ever) but I think it certainly shapes my attitude in our relationship dynamics at times and also my reactions during disagreements. It’s something I’m working on. It’s all a lot of work. It gets exhausting.

Hikingout, I hear you and I think the whole "well you had an affair" attitude is something I struggle with. I don’t verbalize that statement much (if ever) but I think it certainly shapes my attitude in our relationship dynamics at times and also my reactions during disagreements. It’s something I’m working on. It’s all a lot of work. It gets exhausting.

It’s normal. Totally normal. When I find us in a situation like that I totally get it. But I stopped tiptoeing after his affar. So, some of what I am saying maybe a little more unique due to that. My equal footing was a given once his affair was discovered. But I am a good wife to him, and I am accountable when he gets in those spaces.

Sacred- that book has changed my life, I am glad if it’s helping you. I am also glad you are talking to your husband about your feelings -it’s never gonna fix itself!!!

Good luck on cutting out the stalking. Every time I have cut something out that isn’t serving me it made room for something that does. Eventually feeling free of those things becomes addictive and you will guard your peace like a mofo!!