SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What Blue said is so important:

(A) Do his words match his actions (ie, does he keep his promises, follow through on his responsibilities, etc)?

(B) Does he treat people with kindness and respect, regardless of whether he has anything to gain from them?

(C) Is he honest and forthright in all his dealings with others, whether it's business or personal?

(D) How preoccupied is he with how others perceive him?

(E) Does he surround himself with people of integrity? Do I like and respect his close friends and family?

As BS a lot anyway, our pickers are broken, when we have a lot of trauma in our backgrounds, we don't even know what a really good relationship looks like.

Work on yourself, learn to find real confidence and love in yourself. Learn to be okay with yourself and okay with being alone. Like if you never found someone else would you be okay with just yourself?

I think once you can be completely comfortable with yourself, then you can look for someone else.

Without that ability to be alone, there is almost a sense of desperation to find a partner, and that is when our broken pickers go into high gear.

Be happy in yourself and your life, learn all the red flags add to Blue's list things that might be different for you.

The BSs on this site give me faith in people. There are faithful people out there. (Of course, there are many faithful spouses who are married to other faithfuls who have no need of this site too.) They're out there.

With that said and speaking purely for myself, I wouldn't be looking for marriage again. Dating? Maybe. Long term relationship? Hard to imagine, but possibly.

I need to find myself anyway.

And while I’m sure it will raise eyebrows that I’m even thinking of a future relationship right now, having been in a fully fucked up marriage for at least five years, and mostly fucked up for much longer than that, some genuine contact sounds amazing.

If you mean emotional connection, I would say take it slowly. Be friends for a long time. Trust your gut and your instincts. Get to know lots of friends and family of the other person. Especially for adults, our friendships say a lot about us IMO.

If you're looking for just some lighthearted dating with no commitment in mind for now, that's probably easier to find.

[This message edited by BreakingBad at 1:11 AM, Wednesday, May 15th]

Yes, you trust again, but its not the same. It wouldn't be the same if you stayed or divorced, the veneer of that innocence is never quite the same.

You will recover, bit like an egg and super glue.

Hey Ink.

I want to rephrase my post. I don’t find it ok in that I think it’s acceptable or a behavior I will tolerate going forward, just that I accept the risk I’m taking attempting R knowing the full extent of what WW is capable of.

I do have an extensive military background. We do have to have trust that the Soldiers in the unit will do their job. That is built by training over and over again. I don’t however think it’s a good comparison to a serious relationship. In my experience, some of the best soldiers were awful at life in general. The army is structured around the idea that everyone is replaceable and keeping it simple as possible.

I don’t know what the future holds for you, but you will be ok. It’s going to be awful for a while, I don’t think that’s out of reason to except. It will get better though, and you will heal. From what I’ve read, you haven’t had a chance to heal at all because of the constant wounds suffered in trying to save something that was already dead.

I said it before, I never celebrate the end of a whole family, but if it’s the right choice for you so that you can be the best version of yourself for you and your kids, then I wish only health and healing for you and yours. I hope that your STBX can grant you a peaceful split.

It’s like having a knife in your back, you can’t reach it, so the WS pulls it out for you, shows it to you, then plunges it into your heart.

You don’t typically strike me as the most verbose poster on this board, but this one really hit the nail on the head. Well said, truly apt.

"Trust" of the old blind-trust variety is gone forever for me. In fact, I don’t want it. It’s stupid and leaves you vulnerable in so many ways.

At some point in my recovery from infidelity I realized I couldn’t go through life not trusting people but at the same time the blind-trust of yore wouldn’t cut it for me. I consciously replaced it with a form of trust-but-verify.

A simple daily example: In my job I often manage projects. I might do a schedule with a task-manager, and we give his task 10 days. At our daily status-meetings I will enquire if he’s on-schedule. I don’t do this because I don’t trust him – if I didn’t, he wouldn’t be working with me. It’s more just to verify we are on-track.
Same with my kids when they were teenagers. We had a no-smoke policy, and they promised not to smoke. Yet I found reason to smell their breath when they came home late on a Friday evening and would check the pockets and sleeves of their jackets for tobacco and smell.
Same with the guy that fixes my vehicles. The first times I used him he explained what had to be done, gave me an estimate on time and cost and then delivered. I made a couple of calls and found his analysis correct and prices reasonable.

The trick though is to accept that verification can build trust. Like the mechanic – now I don’t phone around, but just trust his analysis and cost because he’s been spot-on for the last 3-4 repairs he’s done for me. If I were to have doubts I will probably verify again, and that might lead to me not trusting him – or reestablishing trust.

I realized that my lack of trust was wrecking my present marriage. This is not the woman that cheated on me, but my experience made it hard for me to trust her irrespective of what SHE had done or not done. I was experiencing unreasonable panic and anxiety if she was 30 minutes late from work and realized that when it happened my mind would focus on her probably cheating on me. Sort-of skipping over other more logical and reasonable excuses like delays in the shift-switchover, chat with friends or getting groceries.
When I recognized this as a problem, I verified... I verified she was at work, at the gym, with her friends... I then had the sense to believe my verifications – to trust her based on those verifications.
Now when my wife says she’s going to the gym... It’s more my issue if it raises concerns. If it does, I need to work on MY issues rather than doubt the person. If there is a reason for my doubts – like not taking her gym-bag, not her usual hours or something like that – I might take action to verify. But I don’t allow that doubt to control me.

Life is fine without blind trust. Trust-but-verify is a lot better.

The trick though is to accept that verification can build trust.

Bigger, I think your approach makes all kinds of sense and it resonates with me for a number of reasons. I appreciate you sharing that. I’m going to poke at it a little, not because I reject it but because I’d like to reconcile it with some other things we talk about here that may or may not be compatible with it.
We talk a good amount about trusting ourselves and our own instincts, our gut if you will. The betrayed have been gaslit and most of us talk about having repressed alarm bells during the A and we vow now post D-Day "Never Again!" I can 100% imagine taking that approach strongly would lead to what you described as projecting your betrayal trauma onto your new wife in a potentially destructive and unfair (to her) way.
Even just writing this and thinking about it right now has been helpful to me. Balance in all things, right? I’m going to have to value and respect myself, believe that the scars and lessons I’ve learned will be helpers into my future, and do the best I can. And I do genuinely like the trust but verify philosophy you describe. But I also know I will never fully be able to "trust my gut" to solely guide major life decisions. I can imagine making it a policy to not ignore that internal alarm and use it to guide me to "verify" more. But I’m too cerebral of a person for there to not be a tug of war between mind and gut (with the heart pulling its own way as well).
But that is the human experience, isn’t it? We all balance that somehow that seems right to us. Maybe my internal balance will shift, almost certainly for the better. But that doesn’t sound as much to me right now like I’m wildly broken, just changed. Less broken eggs, more transformation.
Damn it, I’m getting really close to corny myself this morning. Sorry if this one is rambling, this was good for me regardless.

I think that anyone can choose a wrong partner. But I also think to a certain extent our choices in partners have a lot to do with where we are in our lives. So my answer to this question isn’t really about trust exactly but more about approach.

You met your wife when you were young and likely before your frontal lobe was even fully formed. Same here for my first marriage. We started dating when we were 15. We had patterns of disrespect, and major sexual and financial compatibility problems. We got married because it seemed that’s what what supposed to happen. I loved him in the scope I understood love at the time.

When we divorced, I was clear on why. We just didn’t have the same vision for our lives together. We didn’t have a vision for our marriage. We didn’t have a lot of compatibility in any category other than we knew how to have fun together. We didn’t have tools to overcome these gaps either. Could it have worked out? Maybe but I still know him, he and I would never have been in alignment on anything I could really name. It’s not that he is bad and I am good, moreso we were and still are just very different.

When I met my second, current, and my last husband (because like many of the others I don’t think I will marry again) my energy was on compatibility. We were friends first for six month, then we dated and slept together casually for another six months before we really declared a relationship. And I had been single before that.

And during that time I learned we have similar sensibilities, and we were able to communicate in a level that I always wanted. Our sex life was unmatched. And he had proven to me to be a good and honest man.

I had a vision for what I wanted because I experienced what I didn’t want and took time to verify it.

All this to say, while the prospect of dating after having many years of hardship in a relationship, just go slow and don’t get too serious. Keep it casual as you heal from the marriage. Allow yourself to experience different things. You are going to have a lot of transitions to get through yet to even know what your life is going to look like and therefore won’t be able to clearly picture if a certain person fits in that picture. You will have the coparenting to navigate and lots of settling in to do. You haven’t had your final grasp of grief yet either. The first year after a divorce can still be a lonely and turbulent time.

I think you will come to learn you can trust yourself with new people and experiences but it will take getting your feet wet and splashing around for a while. Consider having a good friends with benefits situation. And change that when it’s not working where there is no commitment to have to break.

Take it easy. You don’t have to trust anyone for a while yet if you don’t get too invested.

I am only saying this as someone who also tied myself down pretty young- typically we aren’t good field players. We like relationships. We like monogamy. Being alone is a huge adjustment because we can’t remember a time that we were. Take a breath before that’s what you reach for. Have some crazy times and be free for a while. Once you feel settled, then take it slowly with someone.

You have a vast amount of experience that you didn’t have when you married your wife. And while right now everything has a layer of yuck on it, there are things you will appreciate about that relationship after you have healed. That will give you a picture of both things you like and don’t like. Right now, you are headed for divorce so your focus is going to be on the bad.

It’s hard to know how to trust if you haven’t met who you want to trust. And if you don’t put too much investment into one thing right now you will do better and learn a lot about yourself that you don’t know right now. Take advantage of that opportunity. Otherwise you will run a greater risk of choosing someone from the wrong place.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:23 PM, Wednesday, May 15th]

Once you are told / shown that Santa Claus is not real it is very hard to go back to believing that he is. Being asked why you don't believe anymore or how could you have ever believed in the first place does not help. Trying to twist yourself into a pretzel so you can believe if you see Santa come down the chimney, discuss with him where he has been for the past year and ask him to see his phone is fine but it sort of looses the 'shine'.

Some might say -- you are better off knowing that he isn't real -- deal with it. Personally, i liked the world that he did exist in.

typically we aren’t good field players

I don’t even know what that looks like. I’ve considered it morally wrong in my youth, though mostly for reasons that I couldn’t defend now. I was a pretty judgmental asshole as a young hulk. It’s disorienting how many possibilities lie in front of me.

Thanks for the words, hikingout, as always deeply appreciated.

Some might say -- you are better off knowing that he isn't real -- deal with it. Personally, i liked the world that he did exist in.

To each their own, but I don’t jive with this. I’ve learned ugly truths about human nature now. It was always true, I was just ignorant, believing in the Santa Claus of human goodness. And I really shouldn’t have, all my religious background really really should have prepped me for this. But I know something real about the world now, and I still retain a belief that God is good and life has beauty, so I’ve got enough hope that things can be even better going forward.
#newkindofhopium

But I know something real about the world now, and I still retain a belief that God is good and life has beauty, so I’ve got enough hope that things can be even better going forward.
#newkindofhopium

That is a great outlook, just remember the reality about the world is you can trust again, but only trust your gut.

I did question my response a little knowing you may have religious beliefs that may not allow you to fully embrace the advice I have given.

That’s okay too. I think overall, I am just saying don’t get too serious over someone too fast. You are learning to decenter your wife, and I think decentering relationships and women will be needed because you are so early in your healing. Your energy is going to be so divided for a while. It’s difficult to recognize a rebound relationship.

I would be an awful dater now. I was an awful dater then too, but I did take my time settling again. I got to know myself as an independent person. I wish I hadn’t lost her along the way but I still feel it’s a good practice. Slow and steady!!! You have a lot on your plate.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:56 PM, Thursday, May 16th]

I did question my response a little knowing you may have religious beliefs that may not allow you to fully embrace the advice I have given.

I would much rather you, and everyone, give advice as you see best and not try to anticipate what you might think my religious beliefs are. You know some, not all, and frankly I don’t really know how to make sense of it all in this chaotic stage of life. I just spent two years in a legal marriage with the spiritual/emotional element shattered and no meaningful vows. I was never prepared for that in Sunday School. And I don’t know what being an adult thrust back into singleness is supposed to look like either. I had a decent idea of how things were "supposed" to go assuming everything went pretty well in life. And even then, I think I’ve had a lot of things that had a veneer of religiousness but in reality were just cultural norms.

So, all that to say, I was zero percent upset that you suggested I find a friend with benefits eventually.

I just wanted to add to HikingOut's great advice about rebound relationships....

Among the biggest pitfalls you will encounter with dating in the future (particularly after divorce with infidelity) are resisting the urge to compare every woman you meet (for good or for ill) with your ex and avoiding what I call "reactive dating" (ie, getting involved with someone just because they're the polar opposite of your ex).

The best way to avoid those pitfalls is to focus entirely on rebuilding the relationship you have with yourself... for at least the first year after the ink is dry on your divorce. Some people start dating sooner, but I don't think it's the best idea, because I think it takes time to heal and to recalibrate or redefine one's life after completely dedicating it to someone else.

Good.

The friends with benefit thing helped me after my divorce. I wasn’t emotionally ready to be with someone full time. The thing I wasn’t expecting is how much I missed touch. Not really sexually but just human contact. You have kids and people who probably hug you. I was living in a city I didn’t grow up in and I only knew my coworkers. I went to get massages sometimes just to have that contact.

But when sexual needs are also met, there was less confusion and less urgency in getting in a relationship. It’s a strange dynamic because we were honestly really just friends, there weren’t romantic feelings so we are having all this fun together but we were both trying to date and we would talk about how that was going. No topic was really taboo, you have to check in and it takes a lot of honesty so no one gets hurt. But it sure beats random one nighters where you never really feel comfortable or having sex too early when you want to actually date someone. We stopped for a while when I found someone I really liked because I wanted not to be having two sexual partners during the same time frame. But when it didn’t work out with him, we resumed friends with benefits arrangement.

I did end up marrying him, but I was able to hear how he was dealing with women in his life in an unfiltered way. I knew him like a girlfriend wouldn’t because he was never trying to impress me, or vice versa. We spent time talking or sometimes we would watch Friends together but we didn’t date at all. We were both divorced around the same time and we were in an similiar space and understood each other. Anyway, good luck.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:13 PM, Thursday, May 16th]

Among the biggest pitfalls you will encounter with dating in the future (particularly after divorce with infidelity) are resisting the urge to compare every woman you meet (for good or for ill) with your ex and avoiding what I call "reactive dating" (ie, getting involved with someone just because they're the polar opposite of your ex).

That’s a good word. I certainly had thought processes like that with my father, could definitely see it coming up again here.

I don’t know how to tell if someone will be avoidant, that trait is one that I do want to avoid. I like talking, I like going deep into things, I want someone to do that with. There are elements of my wife that I feel like I got "bait and switched", and the idea of vetting potential future partners feels heavy.

The thing I wasn’t expecting is how much I missed touch.

I had the experience in my college years of lacking touch for many years, and I hated it. Yeah, I have kids, but I don’t imagine getting tons of touch with teenage boys. My wife and I touched all the time, always holding hands, in contact when in the same room. I think it’s going to be a huge void in my life.

Among the biggest pitfalls you will encounter with dating in the future (particularly after divorce with infidelity) are resisting the urge to compare every woman you meet (for good or for ill) with your ex and avoiding what I call "reactive dating" (ie, getting involved with someone just because they're the polar opposite of your ex).

This HAS to be human nature. I absolutely did this when I renovated my bathroom recently. My biggest complaint with the old one was that it was too dark to see anything which drove me crazy. So I put in a window, pot lights in the ceiling, vanity lights, and even the mirror has an LED frame (that ended up just being a bonus because it was the one that fit). Our GC was like, "that seems like a bit much", and I was like "I DON'T WANT IT TO BE DARK" and I realize now it was probably overkill. We tend to just use the overhead lighting and not bother with the rest but if I wanted to, I could probably perform surgery in there.

This HAS to be human nature.

#recencybias