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Why is he so loyal? Why can't he let me go?

Because that is who he truly is. If he is staying with you after this, even giving you a chance to try to prove yourself, it is because he loves the living shit out of you and is a good loyal man. And that needs to replace the lies you have told yourself about him.

One thing in our relationship we’ve learned as adults, and I’m sure there will be people who disagree with us, is that loyalty is really the most important component of a relationship. Even moreso than love. You cannot have any of the good things without it.
One of the nice things about it is you can choose to change and give it as quick as a snap of your fingers and you can choose to give it until the day you die just as easily.

Because that is who he truly is. If he is staying with you after this, even giving you a chance to try to prove yourself, it is because he loves the living shit out of you and is a good loyal man. And that needs to replace the lies you have told yourself about him.

Ik and it hurts so bad. I feel like the worst thing that happened to him. If I had really pushed the separation I wanted it could've saved us both a lot of heartache. I don't think he's a terrible person, I think we didn't know how to fix things and let them go too long. Then added kids to the mix and it just got worse.

[This message edited by Elliebellie at 8:52 PM, Thursday, June 13th]

One thing in our relationship we’ve learned as adults, and I’m sure there will be people who disagree with us, is that loyalty is really the most important component of a relationship. Even moreso than love. You cannot have any of the good things without it.

He is loyal, I always knew that. Maybe that is why I subconsciously married him. I didn't treat him or the marriage that way. I took him/it for granted.

i think it's dangerous (and disingenuous) to cut ppl off who do such things who are otherwise good ppl. If we did that for every transgression, we would have fewer good ppl in our lives and be living a life of false piety imo. Of course I'm referring to those who are remorseful and learn from their mistakes and do not repeat them; chances and all... Hell, even my mom's friend who is like an aunt to me cheated on her husband and we still love her and accept her.

ETA if infidelity (any type) is your htdo then that should be respected, I think most ppl would agree with that.

It’s not really about cutting people off to punish them for how they are. Who you hang out with has a big effect to who you are. Also I am sure they knew and condones your affair. If I had friends that helped hold the secret I think my husband would have something to say.

If he had friends that knew, I would tell him those friends are not friends of mine and that I feel they are a bad influence and because of that they pose a threat to the relationship.

It’s hard for you to see this perspective. But reconciliation when done right means both people heal. You have to give them an environment to heal in.

So that means if my husband wanted to go around with guys that help him cheat on me that I don’t think I can be expected to stay home and pace the floor contemplating if he is out doing it again. I wouldn’t live like that, when I can find someone else who is interested to be monogamous with me and have friends that respect our relationship.

Your aunt isn’t a good example, that’s a family member and likely had no clue about your affair.

You don’t have good boundaries for yourself and therefore aren’t bothered by others who also have bad boundaries.

I cheated in a pretty good marriage, it was me who had convinced myself it wasn’t

I

do know the marriage isn't good so that's a difference. I'm starting way behind you. I can't imagine being in what I consider a good marriage and cheating but who really knows. It speaks more to who I am than the marriage I'm in. Maybe I'm just incapable of being fulfilled an any long term relationship bc of the superficial quality of my personality.

Oh I just knew my marriage wasn’t good too. And I said the same thing that maybe marriage isn’t for me, maybe I am not capable of it.

Nah, you just don’t understand you that it’s possible you just still have a lot of perspective here to gain.

I wouldn’t call the marriage I cheated in to be excellent, it was pretty good. In the two years leading up to the affair it was a lot less good. I wouldn’t call it bad, but it was deteriorating.

The only different between you and I is you let yours deteriorate for longer and also without intimacy or which I believe is the glue for the romantic side of the relationship.

I sat down to write this after dinner, while I cooked this evening we were making out in the kitchen. In between tasks. Do you think it was always this way? I told you that I basically went through many months with kind of a female impotence issue. (That extended into the affair by the way, no climax there either - that really makes me sick to reference any more. Wanna talk repulsed? That is what repulses me, having to reference the affair sex. But I am telling you this because you believe all your thoughts, and if you don’t think I was in the same hell thinking it was my marriage you are not understanding.it wasn’t until I had done a lot of work on myself that I saw it as a pretty good marriage.

You have not put any focus and very little effort into the marriage for a long time. Do you think that just comes to you?

All relationships are work. But, it always seems like real easy work that you don’t mind doing in the beginning when everyone is infatuated and hot and heavy. When you can imagine things about that person in the most rose colored glasses sort of way.

Can you really envision your life alone forever? No, there is no way. Can you envision your life fleeting from one relationship to the next until the fun part wears off? I mean think about what you are saying here.

Here is what I recommend, work on the relationship you have with yourself first. I am not saying don’t help your husband or try and keep working on it if you really want to try for this.

But when you are brave enough to face yourself and courageous enough to start practicing different habits, start being mindful of your thoughts and the quality of those thoughts. Do the gratitude practice and the other things I told you. And I know you will keep up with therpy.

When you figure out your whys think about behaviors that you have that feed into them. Imagine what you can replace them with instead. Slowly, you will grasp better thoughts.

And by that time, you may see your husband may look different to you. After all you said you see some progress and he is in therapy too.

You want instant gratification but you didn’t get to where you are now overnight.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:55 AM, Friday, June 14th]

I feel like the worst thing that happened to him.

My wife is the worst thing that ever happened to me.

But even with the affair, it didn’t have to be that way. We could have been a beautiful story of redemption, I know my heart was open to it. But she never pulled her head out of the orifice that you are currently struggling with and I am currently in the process of divorcing her.

Loss of half the time with my kids. Worth it.

Loss of half of my hard earned money. Worth it.

Loss of my house. Worth it.

I’ve learned to look forward to a life with all that loss just so I can get the hell away from a betraying wife who couldn’t see the light.

Wake up, Ellie. You dodged my parable, but you are an addict. If you don’t face that and address it, you will continue to rain down destruction on your life and everyone you love. Wake up.

So that means if my husband wanted to go around with guys that help him cheat on me that I don’t think I can be expected to stay home and pace the floor contemplating if he is out doing it again. I wouldn’t live like that, when I can find someone else who is interested to be monogamous with me and have friends that respect our relationship.

Nobody was helping me cheat, we just dump our problems on each other bc we're in very similar places. I told them when my husband found out. I'm not going to tell their spouses what they're doing but that is for one's safety and the other's husband probably already knows and she's my friend not him. Idk, I chose this life but it had nothing to do with the infidelity around me. In fact, I never thought I'd succumb and kind of clutched my pearls when I heard some of the stories. My husband knows what they're doing, who they are, and is friends with one of the husbands, so...we all know the score. I imagine this sounds weird to others. For the record most of my friend's aren't cheating!

But even with the affair, it didn’t have to be that way. We could have been a beautiful story of redemption, I know my heart was open to it. But she never pulled her head out of the orifice that you are currently struggling with and I am currently in the process of divorcing her.

I neither want to be your wife nor have a husband who hates me. Even though selfish, I use that to keep trying. May I ask what is going on with your wife now? Is she with her ap?

I neither want to be your wife nor have a husband who hates me. Even though selfish, I use that to keep trying. May I ask what is going on with your wife now? Is she with her ap?

I’m unsure right now if I hate her. Some days I feel like I do, others I can still feel love for her. But my feelings are irrelevant to the point that any objective observer of my life would see that she is the worst thing that ever happened to me. Just the sheer pain she caused me for so long would be enough. Now add all those loses I listed and it’s not close.

My wife and I are currently sharing a house as we slowly disentangle almost 20 years of shared history. My d-day was 2 years ago this month, I’ve tried to R and it is an absurdly well documented slow moving train wreck. Probably the one thing she did do right is never break NC (that I know of).

But her selfishness, deception, acting like the victim, it slowly forced me to come to terms that the woman I once loved and would have gladly given my life for was now so toxic to me that not only did I have to get rid of her, but half of everything else I have in life.

But I get my soul, my self respect, my peace. And that is worth it.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:19 AM, Friday, June 14th]

But her selfishness, deception, acting like the victim, it slowly forced me to come to terms that the woman I once loved and would have gladly given my life for was now so toxic to me that not only did I have to get rid of her, but half of everything else I have in life.

But I get my soul, my self respect, my peace. And that is worth it.

You sound like a great guy. Do you feel like she was always like this and you just didn't see it? I ask bc i wonder what mt husband thinks of me when he looks back at us. Ik he doesn't think he made a mistake. Yet. But I wonder if he will ever feel like I'm not at least a bit awful even after we reconcile.

But I wonder if he will ever feel like I'm not at least a bit awful even after we reconcile.

Codependency. You asked earlier why is he so loyal, why won’t he let me go. That’s the answer. But notice that’s CO. That means two people. Maybe some of what you will work on in therapy is what parts of that belong to you.

Certainly you are a grown woman who does not have to be let go if you want to go. You keep finding ways of putting yourself in the “I don’t have control” in the way you write things.

And so, maybe one thing to think about is why do you feel you do not have control over your decisions? Your future? Your present?

Because lack of accountability. You are accountable for where you stand right now. We all are. And you don’t feel in control because you have made a lot of very bad decisions that have set your world on fire. Every day, what you continue to decide or not decide or not be in control of is throwing you deeper into this abyss.

Fighting to get control over an addiction is the most hopeless feeling I have ever had. I was in a literal battle with my own brain. And just like you describe, I also knew there wasn’t something right about it. There was this lack of stability, lack of trust in myself. Lack of control over my thoughts. I remember thinking what can I do here because I don’t want any of these paths I can see forward definitively.

Here is how to tame that:

1. Take it one day at a time. At first I think I was taking it one hour at a time.

2. At this point I don’t even know that you have the bandwidth to help your husband. You are very much in your head, believing all the oscillating thoughts that swirl through. And if you get mindful about them they contradict each other. The key to peace is choosing a single path. Even if you could do that much it would certainly begin to help him.

3. Give yourself a time limit if you want. "I do not need to assess the situation for a decision until sept 13. My guess is that by then things will be a little better and then you can put it away and say “I will reasses in another three months” And if you do that:

4. Practice putting the ap out of your head. By being mindful, you are going to come up with things you can change the channel in your brain to.

5. Commit to your therapy during that time and fully focus on healing. You keep saying you don’t want to leave for ap, but I am sure there are times the escapism takes over. Catch it as early as you can and divert.

6. Read, write, and keep your focus on you for that. You can’t control your husband or your ap. You can only control or change you.

If you do these things and really dedicate yourself your perspectives start to change.

And lastly don’t forget to take care of the withdrawal. Plan things you can be excited about. Find things that you can engross yourself in. That is a lot easier said than done. I used to be an avid reader and I lost the ability to focus on that after the affair. I have finished only a couple of books since then, and I am thinking about reengaging with that more lately. Do the things on The self care list I sent.

If you can stop oscillating and obsessing, things will stabilize and you need that to gain greater clarity. You can’t make a good decision while straddling the fence. Right now your decision making in general is all over the place. You have to commit even if it’s in short increments of time. Now I don’t mean oh don’t talk to ap for a month. No, those dates are about making assessments, if you are doing this NC has to be complete.

Beside you said you don’t want ap why string him along while you work on your marriage.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:41 AM, Friday, June 14th]

Do you feel like she was always like this and you just didn't see it? I ask bc i wonder what mt husband thinks of me when he looks back at us. Ik he doesn't think he made a mistake. Yet. But I wonder if he will ever feel like I'm not at least a bit awful even after we reconcile.

Just observing here for a second, you are back on the positive track of self reflection today. End fourth wall break.

This is a really good question, and it’s complicated. I’m going to do my best to give my thoughts on this, but even I don’t know exactly how this is going to sound.

I believe that when we are in relationship people, we don’t truly and fully see the other person. We have a mental model of that person stored in our brain, and what we mostly experience is an overlay of that model with the real person. And once we know someone well, have observed them for a long time, our model fits and even predicts the other person quite well. When the person does something that surprises us, we update our model (ie get to know them better), and the cycle continues.

Enter a betrayal into this. For me, the incongruence between my model of my wife and the objective reality of my wife completely fractured. My model, my inner understanding of her, could never have predicted what she did. I believe this is a huge source of the mental anguish that betrayed spouses undergo. It’s like a bomb went off in their brain. Now the most important model, the one of their beloved, is obviously wrong, the new information proves that, but we don’t know where to go next. We’re shocked and paralyzed. I just could not take the new information about the affair and use it to update my model about my wife. I wrote endless pages about believing she must have been tricked. Honestly it’s embarrassing to look back at how hard I argued with these good people to try to convince myself that there must have been some circumstances that excused her. And what I was doing was trying to preserve the mental model of the woman I loved and the woman that all my dreams of the future were tied up with.

So then all I could do was watch her. And she absolutely fucking sucked at reconciliation. For all the reasons I’ve listed. And each time she played the victim and lied and failed to have basic human empathy in the face of the pain she caused me, she forced me to keep nudging my mental model in a worse and worse direction. And now after two years of abysmal behavior, I know think very very poorly of her. And from that vantage point, I am now reinterpreting our life together. I think she has always been mostly like this. She might have taken a turn for the worse after a traumatic event, but it wasn’t a day and night shift.

I just said a lot. I hope it made sense. One thing we say around here is what matters is what you do now. You have the opportunity RIGHT NOW to shape the way your husband sees you. He doesn’t know who you are right now. Be the best you, live into that, and over time that will hopefully be who he believes you to be.

Ink,

That was so well written and thought out. This should be a post for saving. I am going to look into that. There used to be a thread of them I think. I will have to ask a mod. But I think every new ws should read that. That a good framing of how easily one can waste their last precious chance. I know a lot of heart break had to be endured to be able to write that, but damn, that is one of the best illustrations of how much power the ws often still has after dday if they choose day by day to try to shift that view.

My observation over the years I have been here is that the marriage is not often ended just from the affair., but the majority of divorces I have noted have been people like you who really tried to give their ws a second chance and the ws just kept pissing on it.

Sure, sometimes the ws is a model ws and it still ends in divorce because affairs are deal breakers on their own. But I find more bs than not who come here do so at least at first to save the marriage.

Ellie- it occurred to me as I was reading things you were saying about your husband. I don’t think maybe he was as shocked as ink, due to some Of the extracurriculars. But, I do think he is in shock. That is super common for bs’s for the first few months nd then you se them moving into various stages of grief and back and forth between them because it’s not linear.

And I think he is probably doing the pick me dance on top of that. But I think you should prepare yourself because anger is usually next. I ponder a bit if he was there if there would be more respect for him? I think for me, it’s much easier to respect a person who stands up for themselves. Just a thought no need to answer now. But whatever calm before the storm this is I think you can expect the winds to change.

Dear Ellie, I read the whole discussion up to here (all 13 pages) and really, the situation you are in, reminded me of the situation my husband was in two years ago (DD) and for about a month (until he came to his senses that is).

You said; "Why is he so loyal? Why can't he let me go?"

This put me off a bit because I identified to a great extent, and this is why I decided to write.
Your husband is so loyal because he thinks you want the same thing. To remain to this marriage that is. Trust me, if you were to honestly tell him what you are saying here, precisely because it’s obvious that you are so deep in the affair fog and you have sympathy for OM, chances are there is a limit to what this "so loyal" man can take. Right now he is loyal and docile because you keep the truths to yourself. I'm sure you think you're protecting him, but deep down you know you're protecting yourself. Why risk everything good if you are not sure you want to leave. If you could speak honestly...if you could overcome every fear, and told your husband to come to this site and read what you have written, do you think he would be so loyal? Do you think he wouldn't be angry? Do you think he wouldn't go so far as to tell you..."well, good riddance"?

From personal experience, because I believed what my husband was telling ME, and because what InkHulk says above is so accurate that it's scary, when he blurted out (after a month of me being devastated) that he thinks of the other woman and has feelings for her, AND broke NC, I really died inside and for the first time I just didn't care... I looked at him with disgust, and felt superior from both him and OW… I had the worst opinion for the OW (as every BS does, because we are trying to protect the image that we have in our brain about our significant other), but now I could see why he deserves her (two POS together makes perfect) so much so that I wouldn’t waste a single hour, let alone a day, in the same house. I didn’t have to be "loyal" any more to us. Suddenly getting away with my sweet kids, away from all this toxicity seemed like heaven, like the most peaceful and enviable place. It was what I wanted, so I left. And for me, it ended. And it was obvious to me, and as a consequence to him also, that I meant it.
At that moment, of course, my husband came to his senses.
I gave him a chance, but as I told him, just for the kids this time, just for their sake, and I would consider whether I liked him in the future. Again, to show you how entitled all ws feel, he continued to "protect" me with some lies.

We're not there anymore. He tells truths when I ask him, but even now, there are times when I think his truth and his lies are compounded. But he works on this matter and I hope that some day, when he really grasps what vulnerability means to its full extend (he’s getting there), I will admire him again. For now… I admire my self AT LAST!! And because of that, I won’t tolerate another shitstorm of this kind.

All this, to tell you (with deep sympathy as a fellow human who is not perfect), what I always thought about the truth, what I raised my children saying to them over and over…"The truth will set you free". The truth that my husband said to me that day (later on he said all those things about the addiction of the affair), was freeing for me, and, in a matter of hours, for him too. I took control of myself, of what I wanted, of what I deserved. And I decided that, no, I didn’t deserve anything like this. And from his end, he SAW me. He SAW AGAIN who I was and what I stand for, and I think he remembered why he fell in love with me in the first place, and how awful he treated me, our babies, our family...

The truth will set you free.

Because that is who he truly is. If he is staying with you after this, even giving you a chance to try to prove yourself, it is because he loves the living shit out of you and is a good loyal man. And that needs to replace the lies you have told yourself about him.

This is my mantra. I'm going to read it whenever I feel the pull.

I just could not take the new information about the affair and use it to update my model about my wife. I wrote endless pages about believing she must have been tricked. Honestly it’s embarrassing to look back at how hard I argued with these good people to try to convince myself that there must have been some circumstances that excused her. And what I was doing was trying to preserve the mental model of the woman I loved and the woman that all my dreams of the future were tied up with.

Yeah, I see this in my husband. For him, it's taking responsibility 😔 He comes up to me periodically and will say things like "im sorry I took you for granted all these years" or "wow! You must've been REALLY angry with me to do this". He inserting himself into why it happened and I tell him each time thank you, but that is nor why or happened. He says he knows but we still haven't really talked about it. We have therapy next Thursday and I can't wait until then, plus, I don't want him to hear everything for the first time in front of a stranger". My mom is visiting this wknd so talks will be hard and probably not a good idea but it has to happen before mc.

Ellie- it occurred to me as I was reading things you were saying about your husband. I don’t think maybe he was as shocked as ink, due to some Of the extracurriculars. But, I do think he is in shock. That is super common for bs’s for the first few months nd then you se them moving into various stages of grief and back and forth between them because it’s not linear.

And I think he is probably doing the pick me dance on top of that. But I think you should prepare yourself because anger is usually next. I ponder a bit if he was there if there would be more respect for him? I think for me, it’s much easier to respect a person who stands up for themselves. Just a thought no need to answer now. But whatever calm before the storm this is I think you can expect the winds to change.

It is possible he is looking at this like that one last time in my early 30s (married, before kids) when I stayed back from a party and slept with 2 men. He wanted me to go home with him but the urge was so strong for me I stayed. He came to pick me up the next morning and life went on as usual. He is very passive confrontational wise but I'm wondering now if that is why he lashes our very easily, bc he can be that way with his family bc it's safe and in every other aspect he is just very passive in a "manly" sense. He is successful and not a doormat by any means, assertive in his work life, for sure, but at home...I sometimes think he is very proud to be with me, that I chose him to be my husband, and he will not let go of me bc of that. Man, he's a fucking saint. Maybe subconsciously ik this, too, which is why I was able to still explore my sexuality outside of marriage without worrying about any aftermath. I never cheated, though. This is new for me. Ik he would never cheat in a million years but I wonder if he ever felt that way about me. How ironic I was even thinking that about him. This poor man. No wonder he's so angry.

He was angry in the beginning and would tell me he was looking up legal separation info online but now he's just worried about my well being.

Have you blocked AP yet?

I also think the piece about the ap is that I'm treating him the way I'm treating my husband and that is why I feel sorry for him and why when ppl say he's not also hurting or he's a pos and not worthy of my thoughts just isn't resonating. I feel like I ruined 2 men's lives. Ap is a gentle soul. Of course he fucked up by getting tangled up with me, but that man whole heartedly wants to provide for me and my kids. Ik he loves us and wants me to be happy bc he cares about me and I really dont deserve his love. He only saw a man who barked at us and was moody (and what I told him, of course). I forgot to mention he rented an apt form us above our garage for years before the affair and that's when he said he realized how awful my husband was. I just feel like thinking of ap as using me or not really what I built up in my head is giving me an out or allowing me to be a victim, too, and I am way beneath these 2 men. Ap has had a lot of heartache along the way and really deserves someone better than me bc I clearly have no clue how to be a good partner.