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For your wife to be a good partner in reconciliation, she needs to process her shame and guilt. But in my opinion, that is not your responsibility. Hopefully, IC will help her get through this.

From BreakingBad:

I full on told my WH that I didn't have the bandwidth to listen to his pain most of the time. Also (and I told him this too), I felt like his own shame and guilt (and sometimes the wallowing therein) just flagged more selfishness too me...when what I needed to see him demonstrate was empathy & selflessness. He needed to validate my pain and empathize with me.

I was glad he felt shame and guilt, but it just couldn't be me who supported him through his own guilt and pain. I urged him to lean on IC for support in that.

Switch the genders around, and that is exactly what you need....and should demand. Without some empathy and some selflessness, the odds of a successful R are about nil.

It’s important she understands the damage she has done. That includes taking the kid gloves off.

She needs to read how to help your spouse heal. She needs to commit to actions towards change. My process was as follows:

Figure out the whys and how’s of what she did. Entitlement, lack of consideration, empathy, integrity all will be on the list with a few more specific ones. And then you work to change those things. As those things change more will become apparent.

She will swim in shame and guilt until she does something about it. Making herself proud of who she is becoming, a new recent history of consistency, honesty, and authenticity. Making amends. If she would just commit to those things she would soon see that it feels better to do better.

Your wife needs to do those things to heal, allowing her to swim around in the muck while you slowly build up more and more trauma by her callousness is not the answer. The callousness is sort of normal for a new ws, because they are consumed with their own feelings.

She should be in therapy. She should be reading. She should be turning herself inside out. Enabling her to hide is not helping either of you. Best wishes to you, the things you are doing with taking some space is so mild and needed that the fact she can’t understand that is not acceptable even at this early point. Make things clear to her.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:24 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

A lot of the time, it's not shame the ws feels. Let's be careful assigning that feeling to your wife. Not all ws feel shame. Bs seem to often mistake self pity,and tears as "shame." Many times those tears are for themselves, because they have consequences, or even because they miss the ap.

Imo, when one feels real shame, they stop doing things that will hurt their spouse.

Also..please don't share this site with her. This is your safe place. Bringing an unremorseful, freshly caught ws here is often disastrous for the bs.

I think most ws feel shame, because their horrendous behavior is now out in the open. It’s almost a given that she feels shame like a child does when caught doing something they know they aren’t supposed to do.

And trying to avoid those feelings of being a villain is often when you will see them burying their head in the sand to avoid their feelings. Shame is only about how they feel.

I think remorse is what causes someone to stop hurting their spouse. Remorse is embracing the damage they have done. Most ws don’t experience that until they have done some things that create more balance in their emotional state.

Shame is a useless emotion outside of the ws needing to feel the weight of what they have done enough to precipitate a positive change in them.

I would be very suspicious of any ws claiming remorse right out of the gate. It makes no sense for them to have been on one trajectory where they are justifying, lying, selfish, inconsiderate and disregarding the bs, to immediate remorse. To me the ws who does that is either rare or a really good faker.

A great book on shame is Rising Strong by Brene Brown. She alls you through all the ways shame is useless and blocks us from connection and authenticity.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:35 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

@hikingout #24

I would be very suspicious of any ws claiming remorse right out of the gate. It makes no sense for them to have been on one trajectory where they are justifying, lying, selfish, inconsiderate and disregarding the bs, to immediate remorse. To me the ws who does that is either rare or a really good faker.

I think there may be some truth to this. But here is the sticky wicket though. It is impossible to truly reconcile with a spouse who isn't remorseful. So then, if a BH is still living with his WW right after D-Day, trying R already, (which is what the OP is definitely doing whether he admits it or not), then he is going to be stuck waiting for his WW to get there to remorse. And doing an awful lot of suffering (and probably a lot of attempts at coaching his WW), as in the meanwhile as she says and does stuff that indicates that she does not get it.

This basically NEVER works though. Especially in instances like the OP's where it is clear that his WW isn't even all that motivated to do the work. I mean, I--or rather, WE, have seen at least several cases on here that have similarities to the OP's, play out on here in the meanwhile, and in EVERY instance the attempts at R FAILED.

I wish more people on here would say this more emphatically.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:54 AM, Thursday, July 11th]

stuck waiting for his WW to get there to remorse. And doing an awful lot of suffering (and probably coaching his WW) in the meanwhile as she says and does stuff that indicates that she does not get it.

This. This hardly ever gets mentioned. The time,after dday, attempting reconciliation, before they find remorse (many never do), before they "get it." There is an enormous amount of trauma a ws inflicts on their BS during that period of time.

Sometimes it's too much. Or it takes too long. Too little, too late. Sometimes it never comes. This period of time is almost as traumatizing as finding out about the affair. Maybe more so?

Regardless, OP, only you get to decide how long you hang in, fingers crossed, waiting for her to hopefully get to remorse.

It's ok to decide you've had enough.

^^Yep.

What I think also does not get mentioned on here enough is that the WWs who get to remorse the fastest, are typically the ones whose BHs went right for D--and kept going. NOT the ones who stay with their WW and go for R right after D-Day and post thread after thread on here complaining how their WW does not get it--which seems to be the path OP is trying at the moment.

The pain of the BH being done, just seems to give leverage over the foggy WW at least *starting* her journey. She may be initially running around like a scalded cat frantically searching for what she can do to get *her* life and her peace of mind back. But oftentimes in her soul-searching she may be led to do the deeper work, and come to realize the pain she caused her BH, and she makes the changes in herself. She hopefully would conclude how disgusting her actions were and that she needed to do this work regardless of BH's response on D-Day, but her BH leaving provided the motivation for her to at least start her journey.

Something else that I don't think gets talked enough on here enough anymore alas, but I digress...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:17 PM, Wednesday, July 10th]

stuck waiting for his WW to get there to remorse. And doing an awful lot of suffering (and probably coaching his WW) in the meanwhile as she says and does stuff that indicates that she does not get it.

This. This hardly ever gets mentioned. The time,after dday, attempting reconciliation, before they find remorse (many never do), before they "get it." There is an enormous amount of trauma a ws inflicts on their BS during that period of time.

Sometimes it's too much. Or it takes too long. Too little, too late. Sometimes it never comes. This period of time is almost as traumatizing as finding out about the affair. Maybe more so?

This has been the last 3-1/2 years of my life. I wish I'd have found my current therapist much much earlier because she is helping me to learn that I deserve better and that I don't have to endure the pain any longer. Living with a wayward who doesn't or can't "get it" is a torturous hell I wouldn't wish on anybody. It is so damn difficult to pull the plug on R and end a long term relationship even if it's for the best.

An update - Since my last post I've been much more assertive with what I feel, what I have to manage hour by hour and day by day. I've told her I need her to read some books with me. I need to see that she is doing the deeper "work" and not just relying on her IC sessions. Our communication has been much more vulnerable and she has alluded to seeing how she is now recognizing how her relationship with her "friend" was much more inappropriate earlier on in her timeline then she originally owned up to (the first declaration was an EA turned into a PA that was 5 months long - I discovered it was a year). She's also understand the trauma she inflicted on me the few weeks after Dday with her actions and words.

Though the conversation goes well when I bring up what the future may look like for us, I see her dissonant brain revert to "the other side." If she wasn't my wife it would be fascinating and not alarming to witness. I have seen her react with body language (tears, sighs, eye contact, etc.) that she is beginning to be remorseful and empathetic. Her "work" right now seems to be how to reconcile relationships with both sides of our family and our close friends. So at least I can see her dissonant mind pulling and thinking how she is going to repair this part of her and our life. She's been much more affectionate as well - initiating the affection instead of accepting it. The first few months that was not the case.

Thank you for all your help all. I need help in making ME accountable and not letting this get swept under the rug, or to let her write the narrative and the roadmap to repair. I'm making sure to give us more space so we can work on our own stuff - I understand much more that she needs to process her stuff in order to get to a spot for her to "own" what she did.

Damn, wish I could respond with something positive for you. Thing is, it’s not in my nature to knowingly cause others pain. I get that sharing my pain will help me but I know it will cause her more pain. Part of me wants to inflict pain, but the decent part of me says I can’t. It’s a flaw in me to not stand up for myself, but at the same time I see it as a character trait that is good and decent. Perhaps it’s just best for me to move on alone and end the relationship. I just can’t inflict pain onto someone I love even though she has caused me great pain. Ultimately I’ll view it as her loss, and my chance to move forward with someone who can appreciate my style of compassion.

No you're not being selfish.

I'm reminded of the time my ww (now exww) said, "You're only thinking of yourself right now." So I replied, "Well shit, somebody's got to do it!"

@wjbrennan post #48:

Our communication has been much more vulnerable and she has alluded to seeing how she is now recognizing how her relationship with her "friend" was much more inappropriate earlier on in her timeline then she originally owned up to (the first declaration was an EA turned into a PA that was 5 months long - I discovered it was a year). She's also understand the trauma she inflicted on me the few weeks after Dday with her actions and words.

I would be VERY skeptical thinking she has turned the corner or anything, Bub. She may just be better at knowing what to say to you i.e., how to work you so to speak.

We seen that movie on here MANY times before.

Again you are still living with an unremorseful WW. Others on here have tried that and when it comes to R it has FAILED every time.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:56 AM, Sunday, July 14th]