SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I understand what you’re saying, but the conversations have to end at some point right? If neither person is willing to budge on what they want and one person is terribly unhappy, then that’s it isn’t it?

I agree with this 100%!! You both have achieved that point in a non emotionally-heightened state. I don't exactly know how to state this. You are both still talking for months. You feel he's not willing to budge? He feels you are not? Ok. Decide. That's emotionally mature. You both have talked the situation without words you don't regret. That's great!

I fully support where you are. It makes sense. It's healthy. Honestly, I think his viewpoint is healthy too. I understand you may feel guilt or regret. That's probably normal, but I understand that you need to personally find a healthy relationship. This relationship is not your responsibility solely. At some point, you do need to make a determination to end it if it isn't working if he won't. That's very healthy.

I'm saying you get to decide based on a knowledge of your WH's mind that I'm not sure I've ever had.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:38 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

Sounds like there’s a burgeoning guilty conscience and a "what if" anxiety attack. Good. I hope he is wallowing in it and seeing his cover band career is a poor imitation for his family. Don’t let down your guard. The roller coaster ride of infidelity can be unpredictable. You know what needs to be done in order to get out of this hell…either with him or without. Stay constant.
Good luck.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:38 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

Good for you! You need a night out! Your head is in the right place too.

User4578

"Also been reading a lot of romance novels to help raise my standards a little"

I know this may be innocent...but wow could it be dangerous. I have read real account in another affair forum of women who started reading these and it propelled then into a earth shattering, destructive affairs.

Maintain your integrity. I beleive your man will pick you....hands down.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:39 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:39 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

The disregard, disrespect for set boundaries and agreements (and also just for you and your kids as human beings), and the deception/hiding/guarding behaviors that are so ingrained in wayward behavior are often what just wears you down.

What I took way too long to learn is that it’s "easy" for a WS to promise and even think that they can do the big work and make the big changes that are needed to make them into tolerable partners, especially after an A. The difficult part is that all of the behaviors are very very ingrained into who they are as people and how they operate as their "normal," that helped them take the incremental steps towards an A. They are often not even aware of all of the messed up patterns of justifying bad behaviors to themselves, lying to themselves and others, and decision-making that often involves just "neglecting" to tell you things that they want to do but know would be a problem. All of those behaviors were operating in every area of their lives before, during and after an A. They’ve identified the A as a problem, but not all of the myriad habits and behaviors that they need to change in their thinking and acting that are still there.

This is the hellish aftermath of living with a WS who doesn’t get it. My WH has always crossed boundaries and been sneaky/dishonest in doing what he wanted in spite of what he had agreed to and knew would piss me off. His rationale was that many times he just wouldn’t get caught and so no one was hurt, right? Those small "successful" transgressions reinforced the behavior (of course, it helped that I trusted him and didn’t expect that he was behaving like a free agent). When he got caught, his strategy was always to play the victim (my anger was mean to him—he made me his mom), lay low, and wait for it to blow over, while also asserting that I was going to ‘punish" him forever as if I was the problem for not forgiving and forgetting.

His A was a different deal altogether for me. I didn’t realize that it really wasn’t for him. He knew that it was a big screwup for sure, but in spite of me making my requirements and boundaries and needs VERY clear over and over, he stuck with his lifelong strategies: make superficial concessions, say that he got it and was "trying" to change but it wasn’t easy (like what I was going through was a breeze), letting himself sneak and lie by omission when he wanted to do something that he knew wasn’t okay, becoming defensive and defiant when caught, and ultimately thinking that he could wait out my anger/pain/memory of his transgressions and go back to "normal." He was constantly testing the waters to see if I had gotten over it.

He never really committed to the need to change fundamentally. I’m pretty sure that he thought many small, superficial, imposed changes meant that he WAS doing the work because he had no idea what the work of changing how you think and behave looked or felt like. He had zero stamina or consistency and never seemed to accept that the changes needed to be permanent. He could stick out a limit for a couple of weeks max and then he’d convince himself that the border he wanted to cross didn’t really count as breaking a boundary because it was small or not the same as something else or I wouldn’t know about it or "technically" I hadn’t specified EXACTLY the situation that he was in.

His needs and feelings and dreams were HUGE and IMPORTANT. I honestly don’t think that the idea that I was a person with feelings and needs and dreams ever occurred to him. I wasn’t an actual person to him the way that HE was to himself. He was special and different. I was the mom and the one responsible for all of the stuff that was boring and uninteresting and difficult that he didn’t want to deal with.

It was an endless cycle of me playing cop/mom and him playing pouty child feeling sad and scolded that he got caught, but the biggest thing he felt was RESENTFUL because of the way I made him FEEL when I discovered what he’d done again and was angry, pissed, betrayed. He began to say things like what he did was never enough (because it literally wasn’t) and that I was never going to let him forget (which apparently he was owed even though I could never forget that he was unsafe because he literally wouldn’t work to become safe).

And like your WH, his work was a separate, compartmentalized space where he got to operate freely without me being there to police him. He had no internal controls to keep him on the path. He had always relied on (and resented) me to play that role. I officially resigned from that position after his A, but it took awhile.

It is exhausting, degrading and so painful to realize all of this and to feel constantly unsafe in your M. I’m so sorry, but it is also a good thing that he is showing you that he is still not able to fully commit to what you need after what he’s done. It will allow you to move forward to protect and take care of yourself and your kids when the time comes without doubts.

You’re so strong. You’re doing great. You will be okay. And it is still horrible and sad and exhausting. We all understand. You’ve got this.

Sending you hugs of strength and solidarity.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:39 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

Well done! You will find it’s much more peaceful to give yourself some time not feeling like you have to keep him on the path. It’s perfectly okay to say that you accept his right to decide how he’s going to behave. . .and that it’s also your right to decide that you don’t want to be married to someone who makes those choices in spite of the pain they cause his partner.

He SEEMS to think he’s doing you a favor by not drinking because he DOES think that he’s not drinking as a favor to you. THIS is the crux of the real issue. He doesn’t set any boundaries or rules for himself. He follows YOUR rules. This puts you in an impossible position of policing and ultimately being the authority that he has to get around if he wants to do those things that he sees nothing wrong with. You seeing something wrong with them will only make him resentful and angry. It will also mean that he will have no problem going around the barrier given certain circumstances. . .because he does not believe or accept the need to avoid them other than the fact that you said so. Does he feel that he’s not flirting and getting ego strokes from other women as a favor to you? Does he feel that he’s not cheating as a favor to you? What are the chances that he will never feel that way again if he doesn’t see this as unfair to you and f-ed up of him?

And here is a perfect example of that pushing the boundary to the limit and adhering to the letter of the law (if indeed he didn’t drink at all, which may not be true—he just didn’t call when drunk): he didn’t drink, but he did go out until early the next day with no checking in. You don’t know who he was with or what happened, but he just wants you to know he didn’t drink. Did you pat him on the head and give him a cookie? Because that’s exactly what he was doing: telling you that he’d been a good boy following your rule. No details on who he was with or anything else. Letter of the law obeyed (maybe) but still offering himself the chance to party with the group and take in the admiration. THIS is the perfect example of him Just. Not. Getting. It. At. All. He has no clue of what the real issues with this are for you after his affair and no desire to think about or understand or govern his own behavior.

You deserve a supportive and caring partner who really sees and values you and what you need. You do not deserve a giant extra child that will never grow up and forces you to try to cover every possible loophole to keep him in line.

Be prepared for him to love bomb, make blanket promises (that you can already see he’s not able to stick to without resentment and boundary pushing), and feel very victimized by you setting boundaries and detaching from him. He is unlikely to see any role that he’s playing, accept any blame, or believe that he is not remorseful and compliant. You are going to have to be very clear within yourself that you’re not unfair or unreasonable or controlling—just done.

For now, good on you for taking some quiet time away from the noise and focusing on you and the kids instead of allowing him to test you. He’s trying to test the boundaries and then call as if there’s no reasonable reason for you to be upset about anything. You aren’t being unfair or controlling or too judgy or anything else. You have been devastated and traumatized by him, and you’re STILL holding it all together, while he has again gone off to play. You are the prize here. You rock.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:39 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

Hoping you’re enjoying a peaceful day with the kids without drama, user4578. You have some time to just take care of what you need right now. That kind of distance and perspective can be super helpful.

Hugs of strength and support!

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:40 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

I’m so sorry, user. I was hoping that you were enjoying some peace and quiet and getting some time to think things through.

First, let me say that this shit is so hard. It is really really hard to not respond to what we see as an attempt to connect—a phone call. Maybe he’s going to have a revelation. Maybe I’m going to get the info that will bring me peace. Maybe he’s finally getting it. Those are lifelong patterns of responding to him with love and support.

So don’t beat yourself up for answering when you said you didn’t want him to call. . .AND

Unfortunately, you aren’t detaching and getting some peaceful time to think and enjoy your kids because he decided to have zero respect for your boundary and ignore your request. It’s kind of your call whether he’s doing that because he doesn’t respect you and your needs or whether he’s doing it because he thinks he gets to decide how everything goes regardless of what you want or whether he really thinks after all the shit judgement he’s shown for a very long time that he really does know better than you what you need and what’s best in spite of what you have asked him to do.

Whatever the reason, it’s important to notice for yourself that you set a boundary and let him blow by it with no consequences. Instead, you are making the behavior successful by continuing to answer the calls. You are hoping it will give you some peace or that you’ll get the answers you need, but it’s also really important to notice that it’s not happening.

His calls aren’t bringing you peace because he’s not able or willing to give you what you need and initially asked him for. He blew by that boundary too. You told him that you needed him not to drink. He should have already decided that for himself and that he wouldn’t go out with the band to avoid the temptation. He actually COULD be giving you peace by FaceTiming with you from his room, showing you that he’s alone and watching TV or something, telling you how important it is to him to change his own behavior that led to his A, and recommitting to you nightly that not only is he not drinking because HE knows it’s destructive—he’s also staying in and reading up on how to fix his shitty behavior and be a better partner.

It IS possible for him to reassure you with those phone calls. He’s choosing not to. Remember: he’s there for his MUSIC, right? He really really doesn’t HAVE to go out every night after. He’s choosing to.

One of the huge moments for me in understanding why R couldn’t work for me was the day that I woke up with one thought in my head. I literally was lying in bed having just woken up when the thought just came: he isn’t doing what I’ve asked him to do and what I need from him BECAUSE HE DOESN’T WANT TO. I’d been making excuses for him for years. I’d been telling myself that he was trying and he was making small improvements here and there but what he needed to do (what I needed him to do) was so hard. I kept trying to see positives in the crumbs of minor concessions he was tossing me when in reality, he was just doing what he’d always done for the most part with one exception: he wasn’t actively having an A anymore.

But he also wasn’t doing any of the things that I said I really needed from him and that he clearly needed to do to change his lifelong destructive patterns. He wasn’t because, in spite of the pain and destruction that he’d caused and was ongoing, he just didn’t want to change and he certainly didn’t want to do what I’d demanded. I wasn’t the boss of him, after all, and he knew best.

Honey, I was 5 years out from D-day when I finally woke up with that thought.

The question for you is: is answering the calls in spite of saying that you didn’t want him to call helping you in any way? Is it bringing you peace of mind?

Also, are you being respectful of yourself by letting him blow by your boundaries and responding? More importantly, is HE being respectful and caring of your needs when he blows by your boundaries?

Finally, maybe ask yourself what you are getting from the calls and why you are answering when you clearly know that you’re not going to get what you’ve said you needed. Are you getting something else from them that you haven’t identified? Are you hoping that he’ll hear your pain or your anger or something and it will make him see? These are all things that we all have done. No judgement here. It’s just really important in our own healing to try to understand and support ourselves in whatever way we can.

If taking the calls is helping you in some way, take them. If it isn’t, is there a way that you can support yourself in not answering?

Either way, we’re here to support you. Take what you need and leave the rest. This is all about you and what you need to survive infidelity and leave it behind.

Hugs to you for a better day.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:40 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

I'm glad you told him.
We have a saying, the ball is in your court, which means it's his move now. You made your case. It's either quit the band and man up or divorce. You can now take a breather, let him stew.
Good luck.

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[This message edited by user4578 at 7:40 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

When you’ve stuffed yourself for a long time in a relationship, it can feel really scary to say your truth out loud. You’ve spent a lot of time feeling like truly saying how you feel about what he’s doing/has done would drive him away. That’s a testament to how selfish you know he’s been—that you’re feeling that just having feelings that you express that aren’t positive towards him might be enough to make him leave.

I’ve been there. Again, it’s good to examine that feeling you’re having from just having told him how you really feel and what you’re experiencing in the relationship as a result of his actions and what you need from him. For most of us, continuing to stuff our feelings down after an A didn’t work anymore. It really wasn’t a good way to operate in a relationship to begin with. Hopefully, you’ll also begin to feel some relief and pride for having said those things that you’ve been needing to say.

I know you were hoping to wait, but you were also very worried that he’d be able to turn the conversation around on you. Again, I REALLY get this. It took me years to give up on trying to get my WH to own anything because he was so good at deflecting and defending and turning things back on me and what about what I did to him. He was never able to really understand and acknowledge my pain because he was too invested in being a victim himself.

Given that worry, it is probably good that you had a chance to just say everything in writing uninterrupted by his responses. You might never have gotten it all out or he might not have heard half of it because he was leaping into defense and attack mode in order to not have to hear it.

So if possible, try not to second guess yourself too much. You’ve spoken your truth to him. Can doing that and standing up for yourself and your kids really be a bad thing? It could be the start of you taking steps towards more honest and open communication with him that includes YOUR voice and needs as much as his. If he is really reconciliation material, he should come home with some thoughts about doing better to support you. If he’s not, it will be a good thing to know too even though it will be really difficult, no question.

But honestly, haven’t you already lived difficult? Trying to reconcile after an A is extremely difficult. Speaking your truth is really important if you’re going to have any hope. No successful R was ever built on the BS stuffing her/himself to protect the WS.

Maybe spend some time today with your own feelings after saying all of this to him. Forget what may be going on in his head as much as you can and just sit with how it feels to you to have represented yourself and your needs. Take care of yourself and your kids today and let him take care of him.

NowWhat 106---that was an excellent post.
User4578---I'm glad you emailed him and told him your feelings, wishes etc. We betrayed hide our feelings too much.
We pull punches in fear of hurting R. Completely the wrong way to look at it since there'd be no reason for R if the WS hadn't cheated in the first place. You did a good thing. Now take a break and do something for you. Get a pedicure, facial, or just go see a friend. Take the kids out for dinner.
Good luck.