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This morning I had a conversation with my WW discussing a trigger and some agitation I experienced last night. For some background, my WW wife went out with some friends last night after work. On her way home she asked if I wanted to go for a nightcap with her. I obliged and we went out for about a hour and a half. She was distant, the conversation was forced, and I got really agitated with myself for going along and triggered as it felt the same way when she was deep into her A. I went to bed in the basement and told her I was triggered and agitated with myself.

I was agitated for going out when I was in a "good spot" and should have just gotten much needed rest instead of a drink. I was agitated for going above and beyond house projects looking for validation from her (a bad habit in our marriage) that I told myself I would no longer do. And triggered by the feeling in the bar at that time.

We had a discussion this morning how I felt she invited me because she felt bad that she went out with friends. For me it felt like an invitation out of pity and fulfilling a need for her - not me. Told her it felt like a consolation prize when I was happy with what I was doing, and glad she was out with friends to blow off steam outside of the house and kids. Told her the distance triggered me to the A era. I also expressed that I don't need her or anyone else's pity. I'm sick of folks feeling sorry for me. Explained with the pile of crap she laid on me that I'm stronger in every sense of myself and that no matter what I can take care of myself. Told her it is not her job to make sure I am happy, just as it is not my job to make her feel happy.

She thanked me for the frank conversation and then broke down. We vacationed in our summer home in WI last weekend with my family and one of my brothers with his kids. She finally had to face them all in close confines for days at a time. She felt awkward, shame, guilt, and all the rest - and deservedly so. My family has never "called her to the mat" or expressed any judgement, hate, or bad feelings towards her since DDay. She said she finally realizes it is "her fault." It is the first time since DDay that she expressed complete fault and responsibility for her A! She was sobbing for quite a while expressing she was "lost" and felt terrible that "she can't be the person I need her to be right now!" Is she finally turning the corner? Should I really take this as a great positive. Seems like she is shedding her toxic shame and self-protection and turning towards regret and remorse. Just wondering if I am reading too much into this.

You are reading too much into this.

I am not denying that it’s a step in the right direction but let’s see how she progresses.
The more both of you can be honest, the better. And of course the idea she is taking accountability on the whole is good, but can she get to accountability with the details? That’s where the work is, and what leads the change.

Not a bad update or a bad sign, just not enough yet to think she gets it.

Well Friend, but this is what happens when you rush into R as you did.

How long do you think it will be before your WW will be "the person" you "want her to be". I hate to say it but it will likely be a very long time, if ever. You deserve better than to live with a WW who cheated on you and who cannot even be present with you in the aftermath (the way she was present with her OM you know). We see this ALL the time on here.

This post is harsh but you need to have the facts blaring in your face. Your taking a harder line likely could only serve you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:12 PM, Friday, August 2nd]

WBFA -

It is going to take her quite awhile to be "that person." She has a ton of work to do at this point. Besides IC she has just started keeping a journal on a daily basis. Which was news to me yesterday.

Right now I'm staying in my corner and allowing her to sit in hers. I'm concentrating on my kids and myself. I don't take part in her self-pity parties - that's for her therapist to participate in.

Hikingout -

Thanks for the reply. I can always rely on your wisdom to bring clarity to the situation and just not what I am feeling.

Needed to get this out to sort it all out. Almost like a second journal.

But I agree, I wasn't ready to pop the Champagne yet.

wjbrennan,

Attraction isn't a choice. And, point blank, your WW is not attracted to you right now. All the therapy in the world and all the journalling will not fix that.

Hate me say I am awful for saying this. But continue on the path you are on and you will come to this same conclusion yourself in a couple of years. Or by then you will be too fed up to even care (which ironically, just may wake her up and open to her eyes to what she has thrown away). We see this all the time on here. I'm only trying to save you grief and time here.

She was attracted to you maybe, for a brief shining moment a couple of months ago though, when you decided you weren't going to live with her nonsense and you had filed for divorce.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:51 PM, Friday, August 2nd]

I realize what I wrote above seemed very harsh and unfair. You were the one who was faithful here, you were the one who was a good husband. And THIS is how you are being paid back by your WW?!?! Yes WTF indeed. And right now you just want to get back what you had lost, you just want your life back. Completely totally understandable. You are NOT any less of a man just because your WW cannot appreciate you.

I'll say it again: You are NO less of a man just because your WW cannot appreciate you.

You also did NOT deserve ANY of this too. But, it does not serve you to keep living like this!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:47 PM, Friday, August 2nd]

WBFA - It's not harsh, it's reality.

But make no mistake - I am not validated by her attraction to me. I am also not need validation from her "love." At this point My validation and happiness is coming from myself these days. I'm slowly creeping out of the pit she threw me in without my consent. She's got a whole lot of work to do for the above to be a source of validation from me.

Would I be happy with it - yes. Will it "complete" my existence - not anymore.

I have 3 beautiful young men, a lucrative business, great friends and family, and a great future. With or without her my life will be great.

Being faithful, loving, and loyal for almost 3 decades - 20 of them married - I did not deserve this. From day 1 I refused any blame for her actions and choices.

I'm just hoping she finally does the work and heals herself so I know exactly who I am dealing with. My W from the past really doesn't exist now.

Your wife stopped caring about you in Jan? because you worked too hard and let your brother off the hook. Let me get this straight. She did a bad thing because of this!?! Uh, no. She did it because she wanted to. Do not mistake her actions for anything else.
You are living on hopium. Right now in my family we are dealing with an addict. You should see all the Zooms, WhatsApps, texts, phone calls we are doing. And have we moved the needle even a smidge? Of course not. It is his disease but all of us can’t give up looking for the switch to pull, the button to push and they are not there because it is his issue. So we are also living on hopium. It is exhausting. Let her fix herself. Stop letting her judgement of you get to you. She should have been your strongest advocate and sounding board. Instead she decided you are a wimp. No you are not. You are a businessman who knows his territory, his people and his clients. At this point I read that you have settled, some what, into your own space mentally and possibly physically. So now you go do you and let her fix her stuff.

Talk away.

I think you are doing great. You are right when you are in your logic- logic told you this wasn’t the end all be all yet. It is your logic working for you when you say change takes a long time. It truly does. And that means constant forward movement from her.

She is opening up and you are opening up. You are taking responsibility for you and allowing her to take responsibility for her. Your post is so painful in some ways because you love her and those feelings want you to be close with her. You are looking for signs that it’s safer.

But your logic is there. I see it, and I think in these situations you have to stick with what your mind is telling you, and don’t let your heart get ahead of you.

But, her saying where she is on things sounds about right. This early in she still has battles ahead with shame and confusion and trying to navigate a direction. But, it all has to start somewhere, and this seems at least authentic sounding to me. It can be the beginning of the work, or a moment of clarity. You are right to categorize the event as a positive one. But it will take a lot of positive momentum and a lot of blood sweat and tears on her side to get herself tothe other side of this. In the meantime, we are here and you can journal and talk all you need to.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:41 PM, Friday, August 2nd]

She was sobbing for quite a while expressing she was "lost" and felt terrible that "she can't be the person I need her to be right now!" Is she finally turning the corner? Should I really take this as a great positive. Seems like she is shedding her toxic shame and self-protection and turning towards regret and remorse. Just wondering if I am reading too much into this.

I agree with hiking. You are reading too much into this. Only two months ago you found out that you were in false R. She lied big time about the length of the affair, and she remained in contact with the AP. Good chance this was only the tip of the iceberg. The fact that she is finally shedding some tears now is no giant breakthrough. Where was this when just a little while ago she was facing divorce? Think about what she has told you.

she can't be the person I need her to be right now!"

This is the classic get out of jail card. How about instead of I can’t be the person you need her to be, she says what a truly remorseful WS says which would be "I know I hurt you terribly but I will do everything I can to be the wife you can love and more importantly trust.

I hate to say this, but you want this to work out so badly you see a pile of Pennys as a mountain of cash. One crying session, which from what you said is more crying about her situation than yours is a blip. What has she truly done to win you back. You are the prize, not her. It should be her jumping through hoops not you.

@hikingout post #10

Talk away.

I think you are doing great. You are right when you are in your logic- logic told you this wasn’t the end all be all yet. It is your logic working for you when you say change takes a long time. It truly does. And that means constant forward movement from her.

There's no constant forward movement from WW though. She basically told OP she is not attracted to him (certainly not the way she was attracted to POSOM), and she even delivered her message with a side of waterworks on how she couldn't be the type of person OP needed her to be. Yikes.

Trying to paint WW as 'confused' and 'it takes time' does a huge disservice to the OP. It (in general) seems to only help the poor BH rationalize months or even YEARS of staying with a cake-eating woman who is not loving him as a wife should her husband.

In every situation on here in the past several years where the BH handled it as the OP is handling it i.e., giving his WW 'time' while trying for R (even low-key trying for R), the end result has been the same--Divorce after a couple of years, with the OP getting his heart trampled on in the meanwhile. EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE. I'm pushing for the OP to get a better way.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:04 AM, Saturday, August 3rd]

wjbrennan78 post #4

Right now I'm staying in my corner and allowing her to sit in hers. I'm concentrating on my kids and myself. I don't take part in her self-pity parties - that's for her therapist to participate in.

What does that even mean though. I mean, it is clear that while you spend waiting for your WW to come around (and waiting, and waiting, and waiting....) you *are* affected by her ensuing nonsense.

And....life is short. Do you really want to be staying with a woman who proved herself disloyal? Trust me Friend you do NOT want to grow old with a woman like that!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:46 AM, Saturday, August 3rd]

Trying to paint WW as 'confused' and 'it takes time' does a huge disservice to the OP. It (in general) seems to only help the poor BH rationalize months or even YEARS of staying with a cake-eating woman who is not loving him as a wife should her husband.

I am gonna say this as nicely as I can.

The op like many who come here still wants this marriage, at this moment in time.

What I am reminding him of is it’s way too early to trust her. That it takes time for change and one crying episode does not mean she has changed, which OP totally agrees with. I am telling him to rely more on his logic right now.

I am telling him his expectation should be that she has continuous forward movement. I am telling him what to look for.

I tend to think it takes a while for a bs to get clarity. Deciding to leave is also traumatic, and he has been through a lot here. The stages of grief set in and for the first 3-6 months a bs oscillates between shock and denial. It’s part of a normal human process. Anger will come after that typically. For some it’s sooner in the process some it’s later. But it’s all textbook grief. There has been a death in a sense.

If the ws works on it during this phase there may be enough progress in that time for a future run at reconciliation. But nobody is reconciling this early out. They are just trying to recover and get over the disorientation of their whole world turning inside out.

The ws during this time is also disoriented because they are looking at reality for the first time in a long time. Some will go on and do nothing about it, some will make it worse, and some will have moments of connection with their spouse like this one and it will plant a seed where they begin to see how utterly lost, cruel, and stupid they have been. Way too early to say which of these his wife will be. This could still go in any direction, no way to predict.

But, right now this is more about where Brennan is. He wants to see what can be done. My statement is about constant forward motion is to say "yes, give it time if that is what you want, but this is what you need to see from her before you think she is on any path.” I think Brennan understands this perfectly in his brain.

His heart doesn’t, his heart wishes for his old wife, and that is normal too. But I do like he is standing his ground on being responsible only for his happiness and knowing she has to get there too. Sometimes when the ws doesn’t change then the heart can agree with the mind and that will move them towards divorce.

Change does take time for both the bs and the ws. He is not ready to call an outcome and my words are there to help him deal with that in between time.

All you are doing is basically using phrases that make it clear you feel he is a chump to stay and I don’t see how that is helpful either. I have given up making you see that and have been side stepping you all the way.

But please know there is never a time I am not thinking about the bs’s best interest. I just happen to do it in the context of supporting them where they are rather than where I think they should be- and I think that could be a helpful thing to add to your thought process too. It’s too early for most bs to reach an outcome, and they are not silly for taking their time and watching and waiting for a little bit. I am not encouraging him to believe that one crying episode where she opened up is the sign he wanted it to be either. So I fail to see your point in acting as if I am doing something destructive.

EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE. I'm pushing for the OP to get a better way.

No every single instance you think divorcing immediately is the remedy. That just isn’t reality. I support separation, divorce, and reconciliation. But most people in this phase he is in are not doing any of those things, they are recovering and grieving. You want them to skip this step, but it’s not realistic. They have to work their own process and our job is to help them live in the unknown and the nuance of where they are. We are here to support them and share stories of how we crossed our hurdles in order to illuminate paths and ways that they may not consider on their own.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:41 PM, Saturday, August 3rd]

ETA: Editted a bit is I realized I did come in a bit hot originally.

I respect that your intentions for the BH are good, @Hikingout.

Still, I said what I said. And my read (and the read from other posters on here) is dead on, I'd be willing to bet a lot of money. It is clear as day that WW is not willing to do the work, and from the OP's prior threads that WW never had a great track record as a wife anyway. Not even being present during a date night? C'mon! And all the journalling and waiting-and-seeing will not change that.

Telling OP the above harsh truths and that what he is doing right now isn't going to work, isn't cruel (it isn't calling someone a chump either), it is instead expressing reality. And even though it hurts more in the short run, it will help him make better decisions for himself in the long run.

"Sorry I can't be the person I need you to be" with all the waterworks?? Good grief. It is actually a BAD sign, as WaitedTooLong already pointed out. Why didn't WW say through tears that she will do everything in her power to BE that person that OP deserves as a wife. There ARE WW who say that even within a few months out from DDay. Maybe they still CAN'T be that person there but they are still trying their hardest.

Anyway, yeah. Telling OP that WW's confusion is normal and that it takes time, is giving someone his hopium fix. I have to double-down on that position. Cooley was spot on as well.

Here is the thing though. There WAS one week or so for the OP when the WW seemed to be waking up. And that was when the OP had decided he had had enough and filed for D. This sure as hell aint the first time we see something like THAT happening! Now, just because one files for D, does NOT mean one has to go all the way through it in the end. It sure as hell does not mean one doesn't have grief and anger to work though. No one ever said that!

No every single instance you think divorcing immediately is the remedy. That just isn’t reality. I support separation, divorce, and reconciliation. But most people in this phase he is in are not doing any of those things, they are recovering and grieving.

We have seen, in the past 2 or 3 years, at least 5 instances where a BH was rocked by his WW's affair and where the BH took an approach which the OP is taking,....and where BH kept posting on SI through his journey. (We have also seen a few drive-bys with sad BHs who stayed with their WWs out of inertia I suppose and then years go by and they are still together but it seems to be going badly. But I digress.) In EVERY ONE of those instances the BH ended up divorced. The BH basically concluded the gyst of what I and the other "pro-D" posters had been saying all this time in their threads. Now, the BH did it in their own time no doubt. Was what I and what the other like-minded posters said helpful to them? Did it help them to get to this conclusion faster? Maybe maybe not. Maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with anything. A couple of those BH have expressed appreciation for the "harder" posts on SI including mine (as well as your posts). So draw your own conclusions.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:25 PM, Saturday, August 3rd]

4/17/24 d-day - wjb is barely out of shock at best. By focusing on himself, he's doing more for himself than many people do at this point.

I'd also assert that it's too early to know if R or D or something else is wjb's best course of action. Mrs wjb shows some signs that she will change from cheater to good partner and some signs she won't. In any case, even if Mrs wjb looked like an ideal candidate for R, 3 months is simply too short a period to be sure she'd continue to do her work.

At the same time, I agree you (wjb) are reading too much into this.

she can't be the person I need her to be right now!"

Sort of ... IMO she needs to become her own person. She needs to become honest. Then you decide if she's what you want.

Part of changing from cheater to good partner is learning to be authentic, to be herself, and to know what she wants. Your own healing will allow you to see her as she really is. If she's a good candidate, R is possible. If she isn't, D is probably your best path out of infidelity. But the more you heal, the more clearly you'll be able to evaluate her actions.

Once you both know what you want, and once you think you know if she'll stay the course, you can make good choices about the future of your M ... and you have to remember: you get no guarantees.

You're likely to be making decisions that will impact decades of life to come. I'd do what you (wjb) seem to be doing: focus on omy own healing and observe my WS.

I know the pain of being betrayed is excruciating. I know the uncertainty adds to one's pain. But I'd go for an optimal decision, not the quickest one, and it usually takes time to figure out what's optimal in one's own case.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:35 PM, Saturday, August 3rd]

I have to ask one more question to the OP: Are you sure in fact that your WW is no longer in contact w POSOM and that the affair is stopped. Because I sure as hell wouldn't be in your instance!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:37 PM, Saturday, August 3rd]

We have seen, in the past 2 or 3 years, at least 5 instances where a BH was rocked by his WW's affair and where the BH took an approach which the OP is taking,....and where BH kept posting on SI through his journey. (We have also seen a few drive-bys with sad BHs who stayed with their WWs out of inertia I suppose and then years go by and they are still together but it seems to be going badly. But I digress.) In EVERY ONE of those instances the BH ended up divorced. The BH basically concluded the gyst of what I and the other "pro-D" posters had been saying all this time in their threads.

This OP is not me, nor HINHF, nor any of the others you might mention, and his wife is not ours. And there are others in the timeframe that you mention that are still attempting R, like Marine.

Every poster here that bares their soul to us deserves to be treated as an individual, not a foregone conclusion based off the last few similar cases.

To Brennan: your wife saying "she can’t be what you need" really stands out to me in a bad way. I’m not fortune teller, and I can only work within what I’ve experienced and read about, but that reminds me so closely of my wife, and what she meant was "I will never be what you need me to be and I resent you for expecting it of me".

And I agree with others: one crying session does not a reformed cheater make. Needs about 100 more authentic interactions for you to start to really believe.

Best wishes.

This OP is not me, nor HINHF, nor any of the others you might mention, and his wife is not ours. And there are others in the timeframe that you mention that are still attempting R, like Marine.

Every poster here that bares their soul to us deserves to be treated as an individual, not a foregone conclusion based off the last few similar cases.

You're a scientist right? Then I am sure you understand that we may all be individuals yes, but there are still patterns that play out almost as reliably as the sunrise.

Scientist enough to recognize your recency and confirmation biases raging.

You do you, just don’t be shocked when others try to moderate the message.