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@sisoon post #60:

I can't help thinking that the 'D is always right' comes from fear and a belief that one isn't strong enough to do the thinking and feeling necessary to deal with being a BS. I can't help thinking that it comes from a desire for an easy way out.

How about instead: Marriage is a very serious commitment, and so why should you stay committed to someone who has proven themselves severely disloyal to you. Of course one has to heal and be strong whether they decide to D or R. But I am NOT seeing how leaving an unfaithful spouse is 'an easy way out'.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:29 PM, Friday, August 16th]

I don’t think it’s an easy way out either. (Mark that down won’t be fooled-we agreed on something)

However, it’s important to recognize the healing from infidelity is a process regardless of the outcome of the relationship.

I can’t help but notice Brennan did start a divorce filing right out of the gate. He is following his desire right now which is to see what can be done. But he is focused on himself as much as he can be and he only wants R if it can be done correctly.

These things often need to play out. Again, none of us have a crystal ball here. As much at you point out a few Bh’s have tried to reconcile and now are divorcing- have you ever asked them if they regretted going the path they did?

I think it would be a resounding no, based on what I have read from them. They have nothing to regret in trying to keep their family together, they went down just as noble of a path as someone who filed for divorce immediately.

These things often need to play out. Again, none of us have a crystal ball here. As much at you point out a few Bh’s have tried to reconcile and now are divorcing- have you ever asked them if they regretted going the path they did?

I think it would be a resounding no, based on what I have read from them. They have nothing to regret in trying to keep their family together, they went down just as noble of a path as someone who filed for divorce immediately.

I'm not sure either way on this. The attempt at R surely took a toll on the rest of the family, as well as on the BH himself. So perhaps the conclusion on the part of the BHs is instead, that they could have saved themselves AND their families a lot of grief had they D right away, as they had done in the end anyway.

So I don't think 'noble' is what it is about, as in 'what it a noble fight' is likely not the main question.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:58 PM, Friday, August 16th]

I think I used the word noble to say- they did what they felt was right. You divorced, that was right for you.

Your opinion on whether it was useful for them or not is really odd since I know at least one of them has told you several time that he needed to go through that process. We don’t have any idea of he skipped that would have been worse for him. Everyone is different.

wjbrennan78,

First: sorry for the confusion regarding the book and the seasons.

Second:

My brother is going through his own problems at home now pretty similar to mine. So we've been talking and we are going to get together for a few cocktails this week to vent and exchange notes.

I'm assuming by this statement that your brother is also dealing with a WW, is that correct? Is there any chance your WW and SIL were friends and discussed their affairs with each other? Perhaps, even encouraged each other? Has this been broached with your WW yet? I'll wait to hear what your response is...

Third:

After almost 30 years together and 20 of them married - I wasn't ready to make a quick decision that may end in regret that I couldn't really live with. Hope this makes sense.

I understand this thinking and I sympathize with your situation about not wanting to act too quickly... A few things to consider though:
1) Just because you file for divorce does not mean that divorce is automatic or that it occurs relatively quick... attorneys are involved, judges and court personnel are involved... cases take time and there are LOTS of cases. People complain about the slowness of the legal system but it's kind of intentional. Everyone has to get their ducks in a row... investigation and discovery must be completed... attorneys bill by the hour, etc. Divorce cases can be non-suited (dismissed) just like any other case. Filing for divorce does not mean a person is divorced;

2) I believe the reason you see some posters argue against waiting to file is that nothing gets a BS feeling like they have obtained control of the situation more than by filing for divorce. The BS has taken a concrete step on the path out of infidelity. Also, filing for divorce sometime causes the wayward to be shocked out of the fog/limerance quicker (at least a lot of the time, sometimes you have a WW that just wants out.) Sure, the BS may feel like they're still in limbo while waiting on divorce-- can't move out, can't start dating, etc. but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel;

3) I've bet you've spent hours on this site reading various accounts, if you've found a single poster on this site who has ever posted that they regret divorcing a cheater please point to said poster and give me, at least, a username so I can google it. On the flip side, I can give you dozens (if not more) of individuals who regret not divorcing at the time the infidelity was discovered. I believe the most successful stories of -solid- Reconciliation are those that went through the divorce, took time apart and eventually got back together. [Now I'm going to duck as those certain posters who have R'd blast me with their response.]

Finally:

I take it from your lack of response that your WW has not provided you a written timeline yet, correct?

If she did and I missed it, I apologize (and take her timeline with you when you meet/contact the OBS.)
If she hasn't... no matter how this ultimately turns out, you will regret it.

Continue taking care of yourself Brennan... hopefully you're new body is getting some glances from the ladies, always nice for the self-esteem and lets you know that being single doesn't mean that you are doomed to a lifetime of celibacy.

Your opinion on whether it was useful for them or not is really odd since I know at least one of them has told you several time that he needed to go through that process. We don’t have any idea of he skipped that would have been worse for him. Everyone is different.

It's not odd at all, failed attempts at R are brutal for everyone involved. And I don't know whom you are talking about specifically, if someone says they want to put themselves through the process knowing how rough it's going to be then there is nothing for me to say. Everyone whose threads I have posted in volume in, has expressed appreciation for my take.

ETA: I feel like this has gone off-topic in an unproductive direction however. I have to ask the OP: Do you have a WRITTEN TIMELINE from your WW yet? ETA Again: NukeZombie previous post already asked this (very important)question.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:42 PM, Friday, August 16th]

@NukeZombie post #65 NAILED IT. Said what I have been trying to say myself but much more eloquently and completely than I could.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:29 AM, Saturday, August 17th]

It's not odd at all, failed attempts at R are brutal for everyone involved.

As is divorce.

And I don't know whom you are talking about specifically, if someone says they want to put themselves through the process knowing how rough it's going to be then there is nothing for me to say. Everyone whose threads I have posted in volume in, has expressed appreciation for my take.

No one says they want to put themselves through the process of failed r. What I was saying is they have said DIRECTLY to you more than once that they don’t regret trying. I don’t dispute you were also told they appreciated your take, appreciating doesn’t mean agreeing. But I agree this is getting off topic. But I wanted to try and explain it better because I seemed to have confused you.

As for what Nuke zombie wrote, I have no issue with that approach if that is how the person wants to approach it. If something empowers you and you feel more in control of your life, the. By all means do it.

Anger is sad’s bodyguard. Some people feel a lot more comfortable with anger than just being sad and processing everything as it comes. Some people feel that is a way of being more in control of their life. Anger is a higher vibration than sadness so I get it. There is no right or with way to be. I personally have a harder time holding anger. We are all influenced by our experiences and my mother is an angry yeller. So I see it as a negative emotion and want to get rid of it like a hot potato. Everyone is different.

And I think if Brennan filed tomorrow it would not change where his ws is at all. Why? Because we don’t really have control over how other people react or feel. It may change how she presents herself to him, but that then just lends itself to a different kind of manipulation.

People change because they want to. Doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing. Changing to appease someone else is not a lasting change.

I'm a frequent viewer but rarely post. I'm a betrayed husband who feels compelled to weigh in on this topic. You can read my full story in my bio.

A brief intro - married 20 years in what I thought was a very happy marriage. Ex UW also seemed very happy as-well. The model couple and all that bullstuff.

Blindsided when I found out she was cheating with a coworker. And we have two young boys 12 and 8 at the time.

My story's very similar to Brennans. It was a coworker affair same campus and what nit but did not directly work with each other. I was going to file immediately and was somewhat talked into reconciliation but in all reality I loved her and wanted to save my family.

It was a limmerant affair and we did the whole reconciliation gammet. Both IC, affair recovery program 8 weeks, and 1yr of MC weekly.

In the end I found out my ex lied and was unfaithful through all of it. Lied through her teeth in MC and our recovery program. IDK what she did in IC.

I asked for a poly at the 1 yr mark to verify honesty because I refused to play cop. I refused to live that way. She refused and I told her I was divorcing. She later confessed to continuing the affair and 3 more affairs.

In regards to many of the post above. I never regretted fighting for my marriage and I fought my ass off to heal and protect our family. And yes I was massively burned and it hurt like a mutherfucker. But I hold me head high about my effort, it was noble and honest. Furthermore if my son's ever ask when they are older I can say to them I did everything I could to protect their family but couldn't move any further with an unrepentant liar and manipulator. I don't regret it one bit and in the end got to see me ex for exactly the broken person she is. Her attitude and colors even got worse towards me when I finally divorced her ass.

She was toxic and self delusional enough that she said to me, I want you to know I really tried in reconciliation. What a fucking joke.

For Brennan your wife continuing to work with her coworker in an limmerant affair almost assures futher contact and infidelity. At minimum if she wants to keep status qou I would demand regular polys to verify honesty and no contact.

I knew better than to allow my wife to continue to work on the same campus as her AP and it caused me tons of stress but as I said I refused to play cop and wanted her to pull her head out of her ass without me making her. In the end losing me and her family wasn't enough.

For the cheaters who read this. The fairytale bullshit you believe about how everything will work is just that. Bullshit. It didn't work out with her seriel cheating bumb AP. Lost her job. Lost her best friend. And owes in 100k in equity for our home. There was no way i wanted to rebuild my life there. And she has rushed into another LTR with a little short fat dude who her other friend makes fun of according to my oldest son. She obviously needs that validation always. Poor dude has no idea his tied himself up with a seriel cheater.

Divorce sucks. Losing the dreams of everything you worked for sucks. It's been the most painful experience of my life. But divorce has been better than I thought. I always knew I would be OK and I am.

Back to Brennan. Get into counseling and take it seriously. Read books about healing. My personal recommendation is Living and Loving After Betrayal. Focus on your core values and know nothing you did, created your wife's character flaws and nothing you do can fix them. Don't be afraid to own your side of the street for your problems in your marriage. For me it was being a better listener and seeking to understand instead of being understood. Never think for 1 second that you ended your marriage if you have to divorce. Your wife did that when she fell in love with and screwed another man. But you may have to be the one with the strength and courage to pull the final plug on it. I pray you dint. I hate seeing families torn apart.

I'm a frequent viewer but rarely post. I'm a betrayed husband who feels compelled to weigh in on this topic. You can read my full story in my bio.

A brief intro - married 20 years in what I thought was a very happy marriage. Ex UW also seemed very happy as-well. The model couple and all that bullstuff.

Blindsided when I found out she was cheating with a coworker. And we have two young boys 12 and 8 at the time.

My story's very similar to Brennans. It was a coworker affair same campus and what not but did not directly work with each other. I was going to file immediately and was somewhat talked into reconciliation but in all reality I loved her and wanted to save my family.

It was a limmerant affair and we did the whole reconciliation gammet. Both IC, affair recovery program 8 weeks, and 1yr of MC weekly.

In the end I found out my ex lied and was unfaithful through all of it. Lied through her teeth in MC and our recovery program. IDK what she did in IC, but I assume she was lying or has a bad IC.

I asked for a poly at the 1 yr mark after our affair recovery program concluded to verify honesty because I refused to play cop throughout reconciliation. I refused to live that way. She refused to do it and I told her I was divorcing. A few days later "God talked to her" and she confessed to continuing the affair and 3 more affairs.

In regards to many of the post above. I never regretted fighting for my marriage and I fought my ass off to heal and protect our family. And yes I was massively burned and it hurt like a mutherfucker. But I hold my head high about my effort, it was noble and honest. Furthermore if my son's ever ask when they are older I can say to them I did everything I could to protect their family but couldn't move any further with an unrepentant liar and manipulator. I don't regret it one bit and in the end got to see me ex for exactly the broken person she is. Her attitude and colors even got worse towards me when I finally divorced her ass.

She was toxic and self delusional enough that she said to me, I want you to know I really tried in reconciliation. What a fucking joke.

For Brennan your wife continuing to work with her coworker in an limmerant affair almost assures futher contact and infidelity. At minimum if she wants to keep status qou I would demand regular polys to verify honesty and no contact.

I knew better than to allow my wife to continue to work on the same campus as her AP and it caused me tons of stress but as I said I refused to play cop and wanted her to pull her head out of her ass without me making her. In the end losing me and her family wasn't enough.

For the cheaters who read this. The fairytale bullshit you believe about how everything will work is just that. Bullshit. It didn't work out with her seriel cheating bumb AP. Lost her job. Lost her best friend. And owes in 100k in equity for our home. There was no way i wanted to rebuild my life there. And she has rushed into another LTR with a little short fat dude who her other friend makes fun of according to my oldest son. She obviously needs that validation always. Poor dude has no idea his tied himself up with a seriel cheater.

Divorce sucks. Losing the dreams of everything you worked for sucks. It's been the most painful experience of my life. But divorce has been better than I thought. I always knew I would be OK and I am. I have a better relationship with the lord and I'm working to live through my core values more diligently.

Back to Brennan. Get into counseling and take it seriously. Read books about healing. My personal recommendation is Living and Loving After Betrayal. Focus on your core values and know nothing you did, created your wife's character flaws and nothing you do can fix them. Don't be afraid to own your side of the street for your problems in your marriage. For me it was being a better listener and seeking to understand instead of being understood. Never think for 1 second that you ended your marriage if you have to divorce. Your wife did that when she fell in love with and screwed another man. But you may have to be the one with the strength and courage to pull the final plug on it. Make it a personal mission to become a survivor of infidelity and not a victim. I pray your family makes it. I hate seeing families torn apart.

[This message edited by Fit43 at 9:55 AM, Saturday, August 17th]

why should you stay committed to someone who has proven themselves severely disloyal to you.

That's a misunderstanding, IMO. My commitment was to myself, to take the time needed to figure out what I wanted. I felt committed to my vows as long as I stayed M, but from d-day to the day I committed my energies to R, I had no commitment to stay in the M. And even now, almost 14 years after d-day, we sleep together and we assume we'll be together when the next day ... but there are no guarantees.

Most of us are in shock when we discover/confirm our lover's infidelity. People don't do their best thinking when in shock.

There's no easy way out, but adding the complication of filing for D to the burden of a BS who doesn't yet know what they want makes a difficult task that much harder.

I still can't help thinking that the 'D is always right' comes from some sort of fear/belief that one isn't strong enough to do the thinking and feeling necessary to deal with being a BS. I can't help thinking that it comes from a desire for an easy way out.

...nothing gets a BS feeling like they have obtained control of the situation more than by filing for divorce.

I agree.

The problem is that the BS needs to stay as closely connected to reality as possible. The BS controls themself. NO ONE CONTROLS THE SITUATION. NO ONE.

An action that gives one the feeling of controlling anyone or anything but themself does nothing but foster lying to oneself.

...filing for divorce sometime causes the wayward to be shocked out of the fog/limerance quicker....

IMO, the BS's best approach is to attend to themself first and ignore doing anything that has a goal of evoking a response from the WS. If my WS had wanted to be with her ap, great. That would have made my job - healing and choosing between R & D - that much easier. But part of the reason that I chose R was that my WS got herself out of her lurve for ow.

Filing for D is a complication.

The BS's best way to be true to themself is to heal. Filing for D when the BS isn't sure they want D takes energy away from healing, and it takes energy away from acting in their own self-interest.

I agree it's best to file if the BS wants D. But I'd urge that BS to look inside and make sure it's a choice to go to a new life and not a way of dodging some internal issue.

if you've found a single poster on this site who has ever posted that they regret divorcing a cheater please point to said poster and give me, at least, a username so I can google it. On the flip side, I can give you dozens (if not more) of individuals who regret not divorcing at the time the infidelity was discovered.

I'm really happy to read follow-ups from folks who have D'ed and gotten themselves into lives they like. I'm sad when I read posts by SIers who are in an unwanted D or an R that looks like it's bound to fail.

But none of that means anything to my own decision. None of that means anything to any member's decision for themselves.

Each of us has an opportunity to choose our own path. That can be done by looking deep inside, figuring out what one wants, and going for the best solution for the BS. It can also be done by reflex, by letting other people decree one way is always best and following their lead, by flipping coins ... but BSes have an opportunity to make new lives for themselves, and that requires learning more about themselves and choosing for themselves.

The people who do best after being betrayed are the ones who make their own choices.

One size does not fit all.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:00 PM, Saturday, August 17th]

An action that gives one the feeling of controlling anyone or anything but themself does nothing but foster lying to oneself.

Perfectly said.

I felt my ears ringing. Yes, WBFA, I have thanked you multiple times for your persistent care and devil’s advocate role you played in my journey. And to this day I am grateful for it. It played an important role in calibrating my path.

And having said that, I absolutely do not regret attempting to R. I wouldn’t change a day of it. All my marathon threads are documentation of my growth and transformation, and I COULD NOT be where I am today without that process. It was an absolute hellish pressure cooker, and out of it I am emerging as a better man. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I did the best I could on behalf of my children and my vows. I was able to process so much pain out of my body and understand it. I learned many important lessons and cleaned out skeletons out of closets I had forgotten about.

Getting away from your betrayer is no guarantee of healing. There are stories here of betrayed that are abandoned by their wayward and haven’t recovered in decades. This stuff is all wildly complicated. I continue to believe we need to build up the broken hearted and broken minded betrayed (and maybe even some waywards) and trust them to make the best choices for them from a sense of renewed strength and clarity.

OP, I genuinely hope you continue doing just that.

WJB —

I have pivoted months ago to just focusing on my healing, identifying my needs, not relying on the relationship to validate me, and letting her figure her own stuff out. Our MC sessions have been more so with bettering our communication in our relationship.

Sounds to me like you have a handle on it.

Once I had my feet beneath me and knew I would be awesome, with or without the M — that’s the Turning Point.

Something quite empowering to pick your next steps from there.

In my case, my wife was working as hard on her validation issues and we ended up being better people, better partners.

When you get that moment, when you let go of the outcome, you’ll just know what you want — either road (R or D) and be good with it.

Because you really will be a stronger person on the other side of healing.

Because you really will be a stronger person on the other side of healing.

This just struck a chord in me. There is so much talk in the infidelity recovery industrial complex about coming out the other end with a stronger marriage. And no doubt some report that to be their experience. But my friend OldWound’s words here seem truer and surer in my ears. The marriage is deeply deeply at risk, and anyone saying anything else is selling snake oil (cue a Princess Bride meme here). But the people that compose the marriage, they are far more solid. Their wellness is at risk too, some never seem to recover well. But I think there is a much better chance for the people to come out stronger than the marriage. Maybe that is obvious, but that just hit me hard with those wise words.

@wjbrennan, I really just want you to take your agency back more than anything. And realize that there is a FAR better life than being tethered to a WW, or more to the point, a woman who has proven herself severely disloyal to you.

1. Yes, you have to heal regardless of D or R. I find that ACTION is a big part of healing though. By filing for D, you are showing YOURSELF as well as others that you will not put up with your WW's continuing nonsense--which is kind of what you are having to do now being in this limbo still living with WW. You don't actually have to go through with D.

2. My concern with your "deadline" is you will keep extending it--indefinitely. Sunken costs and all that.

3. As far as what some may say about how filing for D will not change where your WW is at--I don't believe that at all. Why is it that so many WWs have woken up when their BHs filed? And why does the Pick-Me-Dance always get such horrible results? See, the WW didn't suddenly become safe partners right after the filing. But they were given impetus to start their journey, even if it *began* by them running around like scalded cats trying to get back control of the situation and marriage, Consequences have a way of at least giving the impetus for change.

4. Are you SURE your WW is even out of the affair yet? Because I sure as hell would not be!

I felt my ears ringing. Yes, WBFA, I have thanked you multiple times for your persistent care and devil’s advocate role you played in my journey. And to this day I am grateful for it. It played an important role in calibrating my path.

I am glad to hear that this fucker was of benefit in your journey! And more importantly, that you are healing and happy with your path.

I agree 100% on what you said about healing is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from leaving your betrayer. There was a post that I wrote on a thread a while back (I need to remember which one) where I noted on how so many situations I have been in over the years have repeated themselves even though the set of other people around me is completely different, and how eerie but telling I found it. Maybe one of the reasons why betrayal hurts so badly is that on some level we do wonder if it is about us, if we deserved it. I have felt that pain in my life a lot (not just infidelity related)

That settles that though. The OP will and is right to follow the path he feels is best for him, at the end of the day. Really, I can't stand to see anyone being pushed around by their WW and I just love seeing someone finally standing up to the bully and telling them that they will NOT take it anymore.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:32 PM, Sunday, August 18th]

All that said I definitely see a change for the better in wjbrennan, since he joined here. More asserive, more clear-eyed...

nothing gets a BS feeling like they have obtained control of the situation more than by filing for divorce.

I agree.

The problem is that the BS needs to stay as closely connected to reality as possible. The BS controls themself. NO ONE CONTROLS THE SITUATION. NO ONE.

An action that gives one the feeling of controlling anyone or anything but themself does nothing but foster lying to oneself.

I also agree that a Betrayed filing for divorce does not magically cause the Wayward to fall back in love with the Betrayed, ends the affair and collateral limerence, and causes the wayward to recommit to a lifetime of faithfulness. This would be silly. Yes, the BS needs to focus on their healing, but don't we all agree that healing will take years to fully heal, if ever? Yet they can begin healing as the divorce case works its way through the system. They can also evaluate the wayward's subsequent actions during the months of the divorce.

I do somewhat disagree that no one controls the situation. Sure, the divorce case may not change the involved "feelings" But a BS that has filed for divorce has a significant advantage when it comes to control for the simple reason--- ONLY THE PETITIONER (the filing party) CAN MOVE TO NONSUIT/DISMISS THE CASE!! Ok, in rare, very rare cases can a Respondent file a motion to nonsuit but those are limited to attorney screwups (filed case in the wrong county or court, jurisdictional issues, lack of service, etc.) or other rare instances...and I can only think of one off-hand, but it's the weekend and I don't want to crack a book (maybe another attorney can chime in with other examples) if the Petitioner dies before the divorce is granted, the Respondent can move to nonsuit (which would make everything else we're discussing moot)

So yeah if the BS files for divorce he can control certain, very important, aspects of the situation. And granted my view may be distorted by the State I live in. There is no legal separation in my State. People are either married or divorced. When a divorce is initiated there is often an immediate need for a temporary order. If both spouses can no longer live together, but cannot agree who will move out temporarily, a Judge can issue a temporary order awarding exclusive use of the house to one spouse. The Judge can also order the amount each will pay toward household bills. If a spouse leaves and refuses to give the other money, a Judge can order temporary payments so bills are paid. A temporary order can also say what happens with children while a divorce is on file, e.g. temporary child custody, support, and a possession schedule (visitation).

And guess who gets 1st crack at temporary orders?... the filing party.

The BS as the filing party can "set the pace" for the divorce... he can push his/her attorney to move things as fast or slow as the courts will allow him/her.

Even in "no-fault" states, you can usually set up depositions of any potential witness in the case, even if its just to investigate whether marital assets were used in the affair. I think most BSs would love to have their wayward's AP: 1) served with a subpoena to appear for a deposition at the BS's time and place of choice...maybe subpoena is served at home or at work?; 2) the AP put under oath, subject to perjury laws; and 3) the BS's lawyer has a chance to question the AP on virtually anything related to the affair. What BS wouldn't want that? And alternatively... what wayward wants to go through all that with all of the collateral damage involved? [sidenote: most divorces seem to settle when APs start getting subpoenas for depositions]

So while I agree no one truly controls the situation especially the feelings, and yes, all of the above does cost money and people can fight for a delaying action in court, I would much rather have a BS in the position of taking the steps above (among many others) rather than taking a "wait and see approach" living off of hopium for weeks, months, years?!?!

IMO, the BS's best approach is to attend to themself first and ignore doing anything that has a goal of evoking a response from the WS.

Agree on the first part but pretty sure you didn't mean what you wrote on the 2nd part unless you meant an "ultimate" response from the WS as in getting WS to make an immediate decision of marriage or divorce. Otherwise, a bunch of common advice that most here agree on, would be throw out the window... written timeline, telling the OBS, NC, quitting the job if work-related affair, polygraph, et al... each of those actions "evoke a response from the WS"

Otherwise, a bunch of common advice that most here agree on, would be throw out the window... written timeline, telling the OBS, NC, quitting the job if work-related affair, polygraph, et al... each of those actions "evoke a response from the WS"

None of that is relevant unless R is on the table, and if R is on the table, filing for D is probably premature.

A BS tells OBS out of kindness and duty. The WS is irrelevant to that. For sure, there are other motivations, but kindness and duty are paramount. It's an open-ended action - the BS can't ever be sure of the consequences of telling.

Timeline, NC, new job, poly - the BS heals in part - and strengthens themself - by figuring out and stating what they want. The BS tells the WS what the requirements for R are. The WS has to choose between 4 responses: accept, reject, negotiate, ignore/change the subject. With a positive acceptance of observable requirements for R, D is probably the best choice.

But one states one's requirements primarily for oneself. When people respect the boundaries, great. When they don't, the boundary setter knows they have to figure out how to maintain them.

IMO, it's a good idea to file for D if you want D.

Yet they can begin healing as the divorce case works its way through the system.

Only if D is what the BS wants. If the BS is undecided, the proceedings probably increase stress on the BS and WS.

But a BS that has filed for divorce has a significant advantage....

Hmmm ... I think you're presupposing something about WSes that probably isn't true. Your thinking seems to be based on an image of a WS who knows what they want and who thinks tactically and strategically.

For the most part, IMO and IME, WSes are fucked up individuals who are as disoriented as their BSes tend to be. For the most part, IMO, they barely think tactically, and they don't think strategically. Unless the advantages of filing first that you write of are relevant to one's own specific sitch, they aren't advantages that one can make use of. They're irrelevant.

You're also forgetting some big disadvantages:

1) the retainer. Some people can't afford the retainer. My W had a very simple issue arising from her A (much simpler than D), and the retainer was $5k. Our son's retainer for a simple D was $10K, IIRC, but that was a few years ago;

2) managing the process and the attorney takes time and energy the BS probably doesn't have to spare;

3) most important: your approach is focused on the WS. Filing for D just in case you'll eventually need to file is the opposite of the BS taking control. It's the BS letting fear of what the WS may do take control of themself.

As I read posts from new and relatively new members of SI (say, under a year of memberships or maybe a little more), most people come here not knowing what they want, should, or will do. Their energy is much better spent attending to themselves.

Acting mindfully so as to get what the BS wants is the BS's best course of action. By all means, a BS is wise to file for D if that's what they want. If they're undecided or really want R, I expect filing for D is a distraction.

*****

There are definitely times when I would counsel filing. For instance, when the WS leaves home to be with the ap or when the BS realizes they don't want to be married to their WS or when the WS is unremorseful/unwilling to do the work to change from cheater to good partner.

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To those who urge BSes to file before they're ready:

What options did you consider?

How did your decision process lead you to choose that course of action?

What did you do?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:28 PM, Monday, August 19th]

There are definitely times when I would counsel filing. For instance, when the WS leaves home to be with the ap or when the BS realizes they don't want to be married to their WS or when the WS is unremorseful/unwilling to do the work to change from cheater to good partner.

I am sad to have to say this, but from what Op has said, we are likely to have at least one of the above in fact. To be more specific, a WS who is not showing remorse. From the facts presented, WW still works with POSOM and has had at least one interaction that she admitted (but has not given full details as of OP's last update). For all we know, she is still in the affair. I'd say it is quite the possibility in fact.

I still can't help thinking that the 'D is always right' comes from some sort of fear/belief that one isn't strong enough to do the thinking and feeling necessary to deal with being a BS. I can't help thinking that it comes from a desire for an easy way out.

Yeah, I suspect there are a lot of BHs who think this way--who are stuck in unhappy attempts at R, with a woman whom they don't really respect, and are stuck with that awful taste in their mouth that just won't go away. They didn't take the easy way out though. Yay?

It takes strength to walk away from a WW who severely betrayed you (walk away because you deserve better and will not accept less) too you know.

This isn't really a matter of strength anyway, this is more about how likely you will be satisfied in several years or even more from now. A LOT of BHs who stayed, have that awful feeling and wish they had left. I do not know of a single case of a BH who divorced and regretted it. Which is a big reason why I post as I do, I'm just trying to save the guy from long-term/rest-of-life misery. I think we all agree that healing is long and hard and arduous no matter which path the BH picks with his marriage--either D or R.

Any updates @wjbrennan?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:46 AM, Friday, August 30th]