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Hi,

I was hoping to ask a question of any BS’s that have had a second D-Day years after D-Day 1.

What was your for R like? Did your WS do the work or did you just move on from A1 with no change? Did your WS fall back into ‘bad’ characteristics/habits again before the second A or were they still exhibiting good characteristics of being a safe and loving partner?

I’m so scared moving forward this is all going to happen again and no there are no guarantees but to just to hear some stories with this experience would be beneficial (I think).

I had false reconciliation and Dday2.

My WH did some of the things. IC and MC. Spent more time with me. Offered to put tracking on his phone. Read one book. Stopped certain behaviors that were indicative of an affair like spending late nights on his computer or guarding his phone. His words often said the "right" thing but not always. He even went so far as to move us to a new home in a different town for a fresh start.

The affair, however, had not ended. It had changed of course. I could see where he was at all times. I had access to everything but contact continued and moments were stolen in parking lots.

Despite his actions and some of his words, my gut knew he was still lying or hiding. I could not differentiate between lies that might be about the past (affair details he wanted to hide) or if they were current. Trauma brain and all of that. But I knew in my gut he had not come back to the marriage fully.

There were some obvious signs like defensiveness at times (too often). Times where I could see him avoiding eye contact. A lack of physical touch. And of course my ever present gut telling me something is wrong.

I'm kind to myself about it but I see how back then I was so devastated and confused I did not fully stand up for myself. I would ask if contact had happened or question a mood or action that bothered me but I easily backed down if he got upset. My point in saying that is we cannot control what they will or won't do and if there is a will to cheat, there is a way. I know this for certain. But staying honest with ourselves, demanding what we need and calling out bullshit without fear is a way to protect ourselves from protracted betrayal. Basically, you have to be willing to lose the marriage if it means stopping the insanity.

Also, trust your gut. Eyes wide open of course.

My H cheated on me and then had an A 24 years later.

We were young when he cheated the first time and I didn't really know what doing the work looked like. We broke up and got back together and a few years later married.

I chalked it up to being young and immature. I was absolutely shocked when he did it again 24 years later. He was a devoted father and H. I never ever thought he would do anything to jeopardize our child's security.

For several reasons I decided to try R. That was 14 years ago. Our marriage is good for the most part. I am sad that I will never ever fully trust him again and still have moments where the hurt bubbles back up to the surface. He is kinder than he has ever been and much more open to talking and admitting wrong doing. He has done many things to make me feel loved and cared for. That being said there I have some doubt and fear of experiencing this pain again.

I will always be disappointed and disgusted and disappointed that his hurtful behavior is part of our past.

I hope I answered your questions and I wish you strength going forward.

I've thought about this, though not for many years.

I'm 100% certain that my W has closed up the vulnerabilities to an A that she knows about, but self-hate is still lurking in her mindset. But before the A she had also closed up known vulnerabilities. She was pretty well-defended against men, but she said she was totally unprepared for an approach from a woman.

In any case, if she cheats again, it will be because of a vulnerability she doesn't know about or because of advanced dementia. I don't know what I'd do if she cheats again. That's different from where I was 8-10 years ago - then I think I'd just have kicked her out and looked for a well-off widow or divorcee in my age range....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:14 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

I've thought about this, though not for many years.

I'm 100% certain that my W has closed up the vulnerabilities to an A that she knows about, but self-hate is still lurking in her mindset. But before the A she had also closed up known vulnerabilities. She was pretty well-defended against men, but she said she was totally unprepared for an approach from a woman.

In any case, if she cheats again, it will be because of a vulnerability she doesn't know about or because of advanced dementia. It's just impossible for everything one doesn't know about.

I don't know what I'd do if she cheats again, but I know it's possible in theory. That's different from where I was 8-10 years ago - then I think I'd just have kicked her out and looked for a well-off widow or divorcee in my age range. In any case, I know I can get through it because of my own strengths. If you let yourself heal - which it looks like you're doing - you'll recognize your strength, too, but it can easily take longer than a year.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:17 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

My story and TheEnd's are very similar aside from the fact that we did not move and that while we did end up divorcing we now, 7 years post-day 1 are dating. I also had false-R and d-day 2 one year (to the day) after d-day 1. WH also read one book, started IC, gave me access to his whereabouts on his phone (which really didn't matter much as 99% of their A took place while they were at work - either when they were both there together or taking/texting constantly when the other one was off), and did and said some of the right things - but those "right" things were intermittent and dispersed with defensiveness and stonewalling and a frustration with me that I was not "happy like I used to be." AKA - I wasn't entertaining him the way I used to because he had stabbed me in the back, watching me bleed out, all the while telling me there was nothing wrong and it was all in my head.

TheEnd's comment totally applied to me back then:

I see how back then I was so devastated and confused I did not fully stand up for myself. I would ask if contact had happened or question a mood or action that bothered me but I easily backed down if he got upset.

And yeah, during that 1 year I had that "feeling" that I was being lied to. For awhile I chalked it up to the idea that I was being lied to about what HAD happened in the past, and that because he did not want to talk about it anymore I was stuck with this unresolved feeling. I believed that if we just talked MORE then those feelings would go away. Thing was, he did not want to talk about it because when we did he was forced to lie to my face or confess. As he had no intention of confessing, every single time we talked it would end with me talking about how we could only move forward if I could trust this was not going to happen again. And every time he would have to lie to my face, assure me that he had no intention of doing so, and that I was worried for no reason - all the while the A was still going on (also similar to TheEnd - it was going on in a different way from how it had before - no more actual sex and less meeting in person in private but instead TONS of sexting and watching each other masturbate via and hundreds of texts daily - it was a true double life).

At d-day 2 I blew up the A - told the OBS and he actually ended the A for about 3 months. During that time AP continued to try to contact him, and he would show me, and eventually AP actually reached out to me and sent a bunch of nonsense about how I had ruined her life by informing her OBS and putting their child's nuclear family in jeopardy. And I think WH was worried once she contacted me that things were really going to blow up so he reached out to her to get her to stop (without my knowing of course) and alas, the A restarted for the 3rd time. And during this time, before I caught him, I could tell something was off but in all honestly he was not trying as hard to gaslight me - he would not confess but if he stayed after work for an extra hour, so he could talk to AP before coming home, he was irritated if I asked and would say something like "yeah, I had to stay overtime - it happens - why does everything I do have to be put under a microscope?" But I was no longer willing to put my gut feelings aside and rely on his lies so it took me about 2 months and I caught him again. And at that point the A blew up - he and AP apparently had some big blow up in the parking lot of the workplace and some co-workers saw/heard and the whole fantasy was ruined. A over.

So what happened? At d-day 3 I decided that was it for me, and while I did not let on to WH immediately, I started making my plans (which were mostly financial and job-related) to leave WH and leave the area. Simultaneously WH had that moment of "clarity" that the problem here was him, and he began to seriously wonder why he did any of this. How could he have destroyed us, and his friendship (OBS had been very a good friend of WH) and destroy his work life (OBS, AP and WH all worked together in a very close knit group of work friends who all socialized together - after the A blew up and people at work found out WH had been screwing OBS's wife for years he went from being very popular to a pariah), and ruin his friendship with his best friend since childhood who had been the victim of an A in his first marriage and told WH that he wasn't sure he wanted to associate with someone who could do that to someone else? Basically, WH hit rock bottom, and unfortunately rock bottom wasn't destroying US, for him it was destroying basically his whole life. But rock bottom made him reenter IC with a mission - to figure out why he was capable of doing the things he did and how to change himself for the better.

That was 4 years ago. We divorced. I planned to moved out of state but it was delayed due to COVID lockdown (nothing like deciding you are ready to go and the world says "ha - not yet" - I really did feel like the entire universe was against me). So we were divorced but still cohabitating until I could move with my job and find a place to buy and get out of there, and due to COVID both our jobs were very slow so we had a lot of time in our little house, without anywhere to go, to talk. And talk we did. And the more WH went to IC the more he wanted to talk, and the less defensive he became, and gosh I found myself thinking "Had you been this person at d-day 1, or heck maybe even at d-day 2, maybe I would have stayed." But ultimately I stuck to my guns and moved when my job transfer came through and I could go back into the real world. But because of that COVID lockdown time, we rebuilt some of our friendship...and when I left we still talked, and talked quite frequently. And 4 years of IC later WH really is a different person in that he deals with things differently and is more open to talking about things - he still gets defensive and he still has a bit of a snap to anger about him, but he realizes when those things happen (or are happening) quickly and corrects himself and explains his thought process. Had he been this man all along I have no doubt we would still be together.

So that's where we are. We are not married but because I have a lot of flexibility with my job, I travel up to see him (and our dogs) from time to time - about 3 months out of the year. And I'm happy with that. I know he would prefer if I returned permanently and we gave it a second full-time go, but honestly, I am not sure I want that anymore. Which is crazy to say as back when I was in your shoes OP (if you have managed to read this novel to this point lol), I could not imagine feeling the way I do now. I am happy with MY life and while I am happy to have WH still in it, I am not sure I want to be tied down again (by tied down I don't mean I want the freedom to date other people - I don't - I mean I like being the captain of my own destiny and I'm not sure I want to go all in with sharing my life completely anymore).

Basically, R means different things to different people. And my situation is much less traditional than most on here, but it works for me and I feel fully comfortable with WH, not because I think I am so special he just "could not" lie to me - but because I think he would not tolerate that behavior from himself now. He would be letting himself down if he were to continue the same behavior - and to me that makes all the difference as to whether I allow him to be in my life at all.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 3:50 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

It just occurred to me that what d-day means to may not be the same as what it means to me. I presume by d-day 2 that you mean another A, or the same A, occurred after d-day 1. For me, a second d-day goes hand in hand with false R - you are lead to believe an A has ended when it has not, or it restarts, or a new A with a new AP happens after d-day 1. For me, d-day 1 marks the day that I discovered who my WH really was and what he was capable of - the A was just a symptom of the problem - which was him. The d-days after mark the days I learned he could STILL do these things even after full well knowing the consequences of his actions - the hurt and pain and destruction - those days I learned WH was also THAT person.

For others a second d-day can be discovering more lies/information about things that occurred during that A you already discovered - more things that occurred before d-day 1. To me, discovering more info about your WS's past A is not the same as the fear you mention. If I were to count this behavior as a d-day I would have had about 1,000 d-days.

Anyway, I presumed from your description that you were asking about how to proceed when you are concerned about false-R - how do you move forward with someone when you are worried about a A continuing or a new one happening, in the context of those of us who have indeed experienced false-R. So my apologies if that is not what you meant.

The good news is that at least on this site, those of use who have experienced false R are in the minority. Most people, when caught, do seem to end their A or leave or do something to end the ongoing infidelity. Only us super lucky few get to experience it all over again.

My final thought: In looking back and my WH's behaviors pre-A, there were not any truly RED flags, but there were light pink flags everywhere that he was capable of such behavior - both having the A AND false-R. I just didn't know what I was looking for back then.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:06 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

I completely agree with the feedback posted so far. I had a D-Day about 1.5 years ago, and the A ended, but there were a few weeks where the AP would NOT let go and my WH was not being tough enough. Does that count as D-Day 2? Maybe, but because we had a lot of very intense talks about consequences and he seemed remorseful, I lean to maybe not. (She was pursuing him for 2 months after D day and he was still lying to me about her trying to stay in touch) I don't think you can ever really know if you are in false R, only time will teller if you have proof. I had proof. You can't control or surveil someone forever, but it helps build up a base of trust. I have been doing so for a year, and I have found nothing since 2 months past d-day. A few attempts on her part to reach him. I did find that when I discovered things, he would get defensive. It was a very bad sign, and I am still not sure (for other recent reasons below) we are out of the woods.

So the question becomes, do you have facts and if not, what level of this fear can you live with?

I do understand red flags though. OP are you seeing red flags? Or was there another D-Day? I ask because I personally had a red flag last week that has me on the precipice of what could be another D-Day. I am not really sure. And that is the problem. Like ThisisSoLonely and TheEnd said, they can deny and lie and you won't know unless you have actual proof. But you have your gut and they both explained the same behaviors that I saw in my WH when he was still in contact with AP. Literally textbook behavior, lies, defensiveness. So you have to decide if you can live with the fear and uncertainty, or maybe overcome it, or find ways to cope with it? Or are there facts and behaviors you are gripping with? I guess those are 2 different things - fear vs facts? Or do you just cut your losses because the pain from uncertainty is too great to bear?

I am so glad this question was asked…

But I found TheEnd and ThisisSoLonely’s responses deeply disturbing. Who among us hasn’t noticed occasional moments we might be lied to again, or occasional defensiveness slipped in.

The one thing is the texting though. How did they manage the texting? We’re they just deleting everything?

Unfortunately I suffered many d-days and False R. The A that hurt me the worst was the one with MOW in 2012. Kept catching them and had a major mental breakdown resulting in hospitalization. I truly though he ended the A after that. We went on dates he acted as though he was there for me and semi remorseful. He is still NPD so we always had issues surrounding that behavior. When False R hit I without a doubt knew my M was over even though I limbo'd on for another 5 years. I let fear and breaking up the family stop me from leaving but there was no love left.

My xWS was still being secretive, not coming home on time, but I had trackers and checked his phone constantly. He ended up having a burner phone is why I didn't detect it. MOW spilled the beans to me, bless her heart.

Did your WS fall back into ‘bad’ characteristics/habits again before the second A or were they still exhibiting good characteristics of being a safe and loving partner?

To this I would say he exhibited both. He fell into bad characteristics but also exhibited good characteristics so it was very confusing.

There is no guarantee in R. It is a risk we all take that is why I think it so important to establish a life of your own separate from him. feeling confident and independent for yourself so that if the rug gets pulled again... yes it will be devastating, but it will not come as a surprise and you will be strong enough to detach.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 11:03 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

I had false Reconciliation as the LTA went underground.

When the 2nd/3rd DDay hit [same LTAP] this time I was prepared. The first thing I did was tell OBS [I hadn't on DDay1 for a variety of what I thought were the "right" reasons]. And I shared every thing.

After that it was a mess. I had just entered the POLF from DDay1 [15 months earlier] and here I was experiencing another DDay.

I was so busy reeling yet so exhausted from holding it together to keep my kids [then 15 and young adult] from knowing I have no idea how I even survived.

I started doing what I wanted - taking myself on long walks and coffee houses and shopping trips. I started trying to figure out what my life would look like on it own. I watched WH mourn the loss of his LTAP and resented it (he thought he was being on the down low with it - I didn't have the energy to correct his dumb ass thinking). I started getting my independence.

In the end - I realized I couldn't change or stop WH. I could only control me and my reactions. I was sad a lot. I was quiet a lot. I learned to re-love myself and get reacquainted with myself. Our youngest started driving so I got a lot of my freedom and free time back - and I used it on myself. WH noticed this and thought it was me pulling away. He got into IC. I went back to IC [I'd only recently stopped going regular from DDay1]

A few years later LTAP tried to come back - creating fake profiles liking/commenting on WH stuff. Every time he recognized/blocked one - another popped up. When I was logged on as him one night [trust...but verify]...I saw a female name like/comment and then [realizing "he" was active uploaded a selfie]. I screenshot it and sent it to OBS and WH. Through conversations w/OBS we realized during the past few years she's done this dozens of times and tried to duplicate our lives in many creepy fashions. WH contacted an attorney to send a Cease and Desist. To date she hasn't tried to come back that we know of. It unsettling knowing she is probably still doing this shit, just got better at hiding it.

All this to say the more I started reclaiming me, the less I started worrying about WH. Because I knew if the God Forbid happened - I'd survive.

You can't control an AP. You can't control a WS. You can't control Reconciliation. You can control yourself and your reactions to whatever life throws at you. That's where you put your time/effort/energy.

But I found TheEnd and ThisisSoLonely’s responses deeply disturbing. Who among us hasn’t noticed occasional moments we might be lied to again, or occasional defensiveness slipped in.

That is what makes this particularly challenging. Occasional moments do happen. I think the BS has to ask, talk, express their feelings pretty much at all times. A one off moment of frustration can be managed with communication and tuning in to each other. Ongoing betrayal likely means there are more than one off moments and repair of those moments is difficult or non-existent (as the WS retreats to protect his/her secret). You'll get lip service but you can sense the mood is off.

The one thing is the texting though. How did they manage the texting? We’re they just deleting everything?

Easy peasy. An email account that is kept hidden.

Mine couldn't use his phone because he knew I was watching the call/text logs. I'd see it there.

He didn't dare get a burner phone because I went through the house, cars, po box on the regular. I'm sure he considered it but it was "too risky" per him.

Simple email works. PS: he'd access it by going into incognito mode on his browser so I wouldn't even see it in his google history.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

But I found TheEnd and ThisisSoLonely’s responses deeply disturbing. Who among us hasn’t noticed occasional moments we might be lied to again, or occasional defensiveness slipped in.

I can't speak for TheEnd but to clear something up (presuming I understand what was so deeply disturbing about my post aside from the fact it details a pile of horrible stuff). The hell of false R is the big fear most of us have who stick around. I will not sugar coat it - the false R, the fact that my WH could and indeed did continue to lie to me instead of ending the A or cutting me lose or just being freaking honest about anything, all the while watching the absolute misery I was living through...that's a different (and IMO more fucked up person) than someone who "only" has an A. And I say only not to minimize the nightmare an A causes, but because at least for me, I think we would still be together but for the False-R. At this point I am glad we are not - had he ended the A at d-day 1 he would not have done the work he has so he would have remained this emotionally needy bomb waiting to go off.

But, yeah, the life I lived then especially for that year between d-day 1 and d-day 2 when you feel like something is "off" all the time but you are being told (sometimes daily) that it's not - aka you are "going crazy" and all the pain and misery you feel is some overblown emotional state you are creating, and wondering if all the worry and concern you have is your own mind playing tricks on you...I would not wish it on anyone. I went between trusting him, wanting to work things out, to being 100% sure he was lying, to searching his shit, to crying, to trying to be "happy" sometimes 10 times a day during false-R and the A and my WH's behavior absolutely CONSUMED my every waking moment. I had horrible job performance. Could not sleep. Lost tons of weight (okay that wasn't bad - I wish I could have the weight loss back without the emotional toll). And I lived that way for over a year. Every single day. It truly was horrible like nothing I have ever experienced. I'm thankful to have remained, or at least come out, with my sanity relatively in tact.

All of this above is why I say R is not for the faint of heart, AND yeah, you have to prepare yourself for what I just described, as while not exceptionally likely, it is the shit-sandwich some of us get. Had I left immediately I would not have known that pain, and part of me thinks I was so stupid and lacked enough self worth to leave. But, really in a totally screwed up way, living through that helped ME discover my own self worth. Sure I would have liked to learn that lesson just about any other way, but I too am changed for the better IMO.

Of course there are moments I could be lied to - like every waking moment - and not just by my WH, but by anyone. The difference is ME - I will be okay because I am not the person I was before, so I live with that knowledge, and know that I can deal with it. If I were lied to again about infidelity for example I would not have the same reaction - I KNOW the lies are not tied to me. I KNOW my WH's issues are his and not mine.

I think that is the difference. I always thought I had decent self esteem. But, the people that come to this site and seem to "do the right things" relatively quickly also seem to have something I did not - the ability to separate my WH's actions from ME. I have that now. It does not mean that I would not be hurt. It does not mean that I will not be upset. I am not now a cold emotionless robot. What it does mean is that deep cut - that "why wasn't I good enough" or the comparing myself to the AP - those days are over. I would not play the pick me dance for one single second - and not because "I know it doesn't work" but because I know WHY it doesn't work...and the vast majority of that is because my WH's A was not about me, it was about him. If he doesn't change there is nothing I can do about it...so if it were to happen again, the tears I would cry would largely be for him - for ruining what we still manage to have.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 3:37 PM, Friday, September 6th]