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All of these musings around "love" have made me wonder how much misery could be avoided if thorough definitions of what each future spouse means by that term were written down and thoroughly explored before heading to the altar.

Sure wish we had. Now, whether I would have paid enough attention to.the differences back then is up for debate...my gut tells me that the chances would have been low.

RealityBlows

I think to successfully reconcile, the cheater must eclipse their acts of betrayal with whatever ratio is required, 3:1, 5:1, 10:1-whatever it takes.

I agree with this in principle. Sure wish I received a 3:1 ratio but truth is, barely got a 1:1, if that.

Depressing to think about honestly. What was I thinking?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 5:22 PM, Saturday, November 2nd]

All of these musings around "love" have made me wonder how much misery could be avoided if thorough definitions of what each future spouse means by that term were written down and thoroughly explored before heading to the altar.

We even wrote it down — our church required us to complete a pre-marriage camp. It was a weekend in the mountains with a bunch of other couples, guys in one hall, women in the other. At the end of it, we each wrote a letter to our future spouse. After dday, I still had it and I showed my wife her letter to me, she was devastated by not living up to what she hoped love could be or should be.

The thing is, I didn’t really live up to my letter either, they were fairly pie in the sky ideals — kind of like me and my wife were, just idealistic kids trying to take on the world together.

We’re human.

We hit every single mistake branch on the mistake tree. Including the one neither of us ever imagined or worried about — infidelity.

Man, the pain of infidelity is so unique, I don’t think any of us thought even if it happened it would hurt so much.

But there is that love thing again.

It wouldn’t hurt at all if we didn’t love so much.

For me, I found it’s what we do with life after the pain, after the fail, that matters more than the loss.

As noted earlier in the thread, it’s a massive cost to repair the damage. And yet, if any of us can finally be in the relationship we originally aimed for or my other favorite section of SI is the New Beginnings and people heal and find happy on the other end of it all.

I’ll always hate the A, I’ll never be glad it happened. I’m also as happy as I’ve ever been — the work to get where we wanted pays off every day now.

Question for you. When did she start affirming her love for you verbally again and when were you able to attach veracity to her claims?

I used to say ILY a lot, from the time we decided we'd marry through the A. I seemed to be more devoted/attached to W than she was to me. She did not show the standard - to me, at least - signs of being 'in love,' but she was clearly committed to me. Before d-day, she very rarely said ILY. She probably said ILY more in the year after d-day than she did in all the 43 years of M combined. Now I still have a hard time saying it - that didn't seem to prevent the A before. W doesn't say it much, either, but it's not important to either of us to say or hear it. We want to give and receive actions more than words.

Since d-day, actions have spoken louder than words for both of us. She didn't have to win me back because I saw her A as a symptom of a sickness. She had to show me that she loved me (had my interests at heart), was in love with me (sexual desire), and would be monogamous from then on.

She showed the first with her honesty and willingness to work together to resolve issues between us. She showed the 2n with sex. We talked about the 3rd until we got on the same page. At the end of a year, I could have declared victory - we still had work to do, but I was very certain we'd do it; but part of me was afraid to jinx us by declaring victory. At the end of 2 years, most of my inner voices knew we'd succeed, but part of me was afraid to jinx us by declaring victory. Sometime between 3.5 and 4 years out, I realized one day that I no longer harbored any desire to see my W punished, and I no longer had any desire for 'justice.' I've considered ourselves to be 'Reconciled' since then.

Oldwounds

We even wrote it down — our church required us to complete a pre-marriage camp. It was a weekend in the mountains with a bunch of other couples, guys in one hall, women in the other. At the end of it, we each wrote a letter to our future spouse. After dday, I still had it and I showed my wife her letter to me, she was devastated by not living up to what she hoped love could be or should be.

The thing is, I didn’t really live up to my letter either, they were fairly pie in the sky ideals — kind of like me and my wife were, just idealistic kids trying to take on the world together.

We’re human.

We hit every single mistake branch on the mistake tree. Including the one neither of us ever imagined or worried about — infidelity.

Man, the pain of infidelity is so unique, I don’t think any of us thought even if it happened it would hurt so much.

But there is that love thing again.

It wouldn’t hurt at all if we didn’t love so much.

For me, I found it’s what we do with life after the pain, after the fail, that matters more than the loss.

As noted earlier in the thread, it’s a massive cost to repair the damage. And yet, if any of us can finally be in the relationship we originally aimed for or my other favorite section of SI is the New Beginnings and people heal and find happy on the other end of it all.

I’ll always hate the A, I’ll never be glad it happened. I’m also as happy as I’ve ever been — the work to get where we wanted pays off every day now.

Thanks for your generous and experienced input & for disavowing me of my naive reflective illusions (I think 😁).

I went back and read your story. What you chose to overcome with a four year affair was/is....monumental. I never even came close.

Question for you. During those 4 years, were you getting ily's from your wife? How about shortly after Dday? I know you said she filed, but was that pretty immediately or were there verbal exchanges of love affirmations during that time as well? Now after all these years, what is your perception of hearing those words?

Thankfully, I too have the marriage I always longed for, just with my second wife and I am very grateful.

Thanks again.

I'm humbled by stories like sissoon's, where R happens truly and the phoenix of a stronger marriage rises from the ashes of the infidelity. This is, in my mind, the ultimate in evolution during this one short life.

It's an equation w ever-changing variables. It cannot be applied to every BS/WS with any accuracy at all. BS must be self-aware and whole enough to recognize and trust that the distance to self-love/acceptance/healing is attainable and engage with a sustainable gumption not many have.

I'm a secure attachment type. I'm very flawed, but a liar and cheater I am not. As Forrest Gump said, "I know what love is, Jenny."

DT, thank you for your words and support, you were quite eloquent regarding addiction and its insidious presence. You unquestionably "get it." WH has only about 6 wks of sobriety, no string of years, so the bomb fell recently. Navigation is one nasty road right now and we are living separately.

It may be a fairy tale, that someone out there could love me and I could love him, flaws and all, such that my whole heart feels full. Investment in the current spouse is a risky gamble and frankly scares me. I am giving myself the grace and gift of time to see, as the advice I have repeatedly gotten is this, and it feels right. I gotta work on not being a complete basket case after this reveal anyway.

For me, love is being with someone who doesn't care if I holler a question from one room to another, argue the other side just for the sake of discussion/seeing both sides, and who can laugh at self and encourage me to laugh at self too.

If I can't get that, with trust to boot, I have to believe I can learn to be happy by myself.

My wayward had childhood issues that eventually led him down a road where instead of reaching out to connect, as the social animal that we are requires, he reached ever inward, to fake people and his own generated fantasies. Dopamine is a strong motivator and it was a choice he kept making... until it wasn't.

Love is what each of us can manage. In our childhood we either clearly get it from one or both of our folks, don't clearly get it, or don't get it at all, which can include abuse of far too horrible a type.

We can be loving, but it has to start w ourselves. Once our cup is full it spills over, and feeds the surroundings. Most of us have some cracks, but the vessel that holds love has got to self-fill faster than it leaks out.

Thanks for your generous and experienced input & for disavowing me of my naive reflective illusions (I think 😁).

No attempt to disavow on this end!

I was relating our experience of exploring the concept of love pre-marriage was dreamy and wonderful and none of it stuck — especially when we needed it most.

I actually think that any amount of pre-M work is a good thing more often than not.

Going back, for us, it showed us that no matter our initial feelings, figuring out sustainable love is a different animal.

I went back and read your story. What you chose to overcome with a four year affair was/is....monumental. I never even came close.

Based only on what I’ve picked up from your posts, it doesn’t like you were given much help or much of a choice to continue.

Building a new, happy healthy M is also monumental. So many of my friends never made it back to vulnerable after their first marriages. After being burned, it’s a brave thing to put yourself out there again.

Question for you. During those 4 years, were you getting ily's from your wife? How about shortly after Dday? I know you said she filed, but was that pretty immediately or were there verbal exchanges of love affirmations during that time as well? Now after all these years, what is your perception of hearing those words?

The ILY was fairly rare during the A. Our kids were young and kept us both extremely busy. Half of the reason I doubted the existence of a secret A is, I don’t know where they found the time. I worked two jobs and raised rug rats and we had no time or money. Dday didn’t happen until 18-years later, when she chose to finally own it and confessed. Dday years later does not soften the pain, that much I have learned.

After the A, the era of the secret, we refer to as the Dark Ages. We did the minimum effort as a couple and yet, we were a total team for our sons, they saw nothing of the troubles. In her mind during this time she blamed the M. She mentioned the D word after our youngest graduated high school. We went to MC. All of her resentments, all the anger she had about our M all spilled out and a lot of it didn’t make sense, some of the anger did.

The confession happened a few years after the MC. She had let go of all the anger, she realized I was a stand up guy, but now — she was sure the truth would bury this new hope. And it did, for a while.

Now, my wife understands she can’t make up for lost time. But she really tries to anyway. She says ILY early and often and she means it and I’m fine with it, but I’m always more interested in the actions over the words.

After infidelity, regardless of how or when we heal, infidelity permanently weakens words and promises. I’m a show me, don’t tell me guy at this point in life.

Thankfully, I too have the marriage I always longed for, just with my second wife and I am very grateful.

That is awesome. As I said, I love new beginnings, or a happy R or people who find peace on the other side of Hell sans any kind of relationship.

sisoon

I used to say ILY a lot, from the time we decided we'd marry through the A. I seemed to be more devoted/attached to W than she was to me. She did not show the standard - to me, at least - signs of being 'in love,' but she was clearly committed to me. Before d-day, she very rarely said ILY. She probably said ILY more in the year after d-day than she did in all the 43 years of M combined. Now I still have a hard time saying it - that didn't seem to prevent the A before. W doesn't say it much, either, but it's not important to either of us to say or hear it. We want to give and receive actions more than words.

Since d-day, actions have spoken louder than words for both of us. She didn't have to win me back because I saw her A as a symptom of a sickness. She had to show me that she loved me (had my interests at heart), was in love with me (sexual desire), and would be monogamous from then on.

She showed the first with her honesty and willingness to work together to resolve issues between us. She showed the 2n with sex.

Your posts always force me into a different vein of thought. You give me a mental headache....in a good way. I appreciate it.

Some of this comes from what I percieve as very different personality types which is neither here nor there when it comes to voracity....just different.

I affirm much of what you communicated above. Where I diverge is the need to hear the ily's regularly, as in daily. Backed by a preponderance of corresponding action of course, just as you and Oldwounds have highlighted (Im not from Missouri but have adopted their state motto).

Your story too is one of perseverance and hope and Im happy for you sir.

gray54

WH has only about 6 wks of sobriety, no string of years, so the bomb fell recently. Navigation is one nasty road right now and we are living separately.

It may be a fairy tale, that someone out there could love me and I could love him, flaws and all, such that my whole heart feels full. Investment in the current spouse is a risky gamble and frankly scares me. I am giving myself the grace and gift of time to see, as the advice I have repeatedly gotten is this, and it feels right. I gotta work on not being a complete basket case after this reveal anyway.

For me, love is being with someone who doesn't care if I holler a question from one room to another, argue the other side just for the sake of discussion/seeing both sides, and who can laugh at self and encourage me to laugh at self too.

If I can't get that, with trust to boot, I have to believe I can learn to be happy by myself.

I didnt realize how fresh this all is. Im so sorry. A "nasty road" it must be for sure.

Oldwounds and sisoon's successful R accounts aside, my story is one of a wasted decade of an R attempt. I was a young husband and father and made many wrong headed decisions to stay with it. It was miserable and I regret it. As you weigh your options, Id encourage you not to do what I did, which is smoke a lot of hopium.

Anyway, you absolutely deserve the love you are looking for. Once you "right the ship" of you mind/will/emotions and get healthy, I hope you find the peace and clarity you seek to move forward with your life...with or without your ws.

Solidarity ma'am.

Oldwounds

After infidelity, regardless of how or when we heal, infidelity permanently weakens words and promises. I’m a show me, don’t tell me guy at this point in life.

So true.

No worries on the disavow comment. I appreciate the reflective input.

DT,

What I meant by that shorthand was "former wayward wife".

I’m assuming my question was poorly written, so let me try again. I fully understand the acronyms, and I was not asking you to write out the terms instead of using acronyms. Most all posters here use the established acronyms, for obvious reasons.

Instead, this is my question: Did your current wife betray you, or only your first wife? I looked for a profile story but didn’t see one (perhaps I looked in the wrong places).

[This message edited by gr8ful at 1:55 PM, Sunday, November 3rd]

gr8ful

Instead, this is my question: Did your current wife betray you, or only your first wife? I looked for a profile story but didn’t see one (perhaps I looked in the wrong places).

It was my first wife.

It was my first wife

Thanks for the clarification. In the parlance of SI she would then be your "xww" lol

Ive let all of these thoughts purcolate for a couple of days. They've been helpful to an extent.

The first thing Id advise any newly exposed/confessed wayward wanting to reconcile is to not use the term "love" for the bs until/unless the bs said that they are open to hearing it and to be forthright about it. As in, "I realize what I have done with my betrayal is the most unloving thing someone can do to those they claim to love. In fact, it is hateful. I gave given up the right to use the term love in regard to you until/unless you deem my actions such that there is enough proven veracity and enough healing that you are ready to hear this from me. Until then, I will work tirelessly to both repair what is broken inside of me and, in so doing, build up enough proof-by-action for you to have the minimum level of confidence to allow me to rebuild the relationship from my side. I realize that this may well be the effort of years. Should you see no way forward for us at any time following my betrayal and file for divorce, I will be incredibly saddened but will understand."

Pipe dream though this may be (Ive never read of anyone saying something similar), I stand by this advice.

I find the responses to this fascinating and it coincides with my belief that there are no absolute truths to infidelity other than the pain. The uniqueness of us as individuals will determine our personal truths. For me, I absolutely do believe that some cheaters love their spouses or at least feel the love while acting as if they don’t. I know I’ve done things that I knew would hurt a loved one if they found out and I am absolutely sure I still loved them as I was doing them. I never saw the declaration of love as an attempt to minimize or excuse. Maybe it’s because my husband spent a long time cheating and I truly believe had he not had love for me he’d have left and especially if he’d had love for her. We don’t have the kind of marriage that he gets all done for him at home while he’s out having fun. That’s never been our thing. In order to try and reconcile I had to believe that he felt love for me the entire time albeit not enough. However, he didn’t have enough for himself either. Had I not been able to believe in some amount of love being present the entire time I couldn’t have reconciled. Why bother at that point? It’s always interesting to me how others feel.

Thanks for this OnTheOtherSideOfHell

For me, I absolutely do believe that some cheaters love their spouses or at least feel the love while acting as if they don’t. I know I’ve done things that I knew would hurt a loved one if they found out and I am absolutely sure I still loved them as I was doing them. I never saw the declaration of love as an attempt to minimize or excuse. Maybe it’s because my husband spent a long time cheating and I truly believe had he not had love for me he’d have left and especially if he’d had love for her. We don’t have the kind of marriage that he gets all done for him at home while he’s out having fun. That’s never been our thing. In order to try and reconcile I had to believe that he felt love for me the entire time albeit not enough. However, he didn’t have enough for himself either. Had I not been able to believe in some amount of love being present the entire time I couldn’t have reconciled. Why bother at that point? 

I believe that some WSs truly believe that they had some form of love for their BS but, in actuality, they did not. They can mouth the word, but for the reasons I deliniated at the beginning of the post, they honestly have no clue as to what it means to love. Its kind of scary actually. Note that I said some, not all.

I too believed that she had some love for me early on post Dday. That belief waned to almost zero over the next decade and I deeply regret that effort today. It cost me tremendously. She was clueless. I hope your experience is far different from mine.

Quick question for you. Did your WH ever profess love for his AP? Did you ever utilize a polygraph to better establish a baseline of truth concerning his claims?

You neednt answer if you dont want to. Im just interested in your thoughts and actions as it pertains to this.

As always, I am so sorry you are facing the fall out from his betrayal.

So after my Dday and quite awhile after I was told that she will always love me. Sure. . .

So took me awhile to figure this out. For background my W had engaged in a compartmentalized fantasy land online EA with a PA to boot.

My response was a variation on that if your version of loving me includes you cheating on me then . . .I don't want it. Love is a verb to me. Your words and actions don't agree. I now assume your actions were true while your words were lies.

She often told me "she wasn't thinking," when she had her A. So I said that if you were not thinking about me when doing something so hurtful then that means I was indifferent to her. Indifference is the opposite of love. Therefore I did not believe that she loved me during her A. She disagreed on that a lot, could never explain why I was wrong. Once she admitted that we made progress. To any WS reading this. Your BS has likely accepted this as truth. You would get much further faster if you did not argue. You are in the wrong. Not the time to spin things or add details that make you look better.

She did a lot of therapy, got meds and a lot of apologies.

It changed over time. I rejected her often in many different ways . However she kept trying. When she kept trying with no encouragement from me it was hard not to believe her sincerity. I eventually allowed room to encourage amends and win me back. That took years of indecision, uncertainty, and so much painful talking.

In the end she did win me back. Why she did what she did is understood. She still comforts me when I trigger. We are a completely open book with one another. She gets this look now that is hard to describe. The closest someone ever described to me on SI. . . it was kind of like a child or a pet that knows they did wrong and deseperately wants approval/foregiveness.

That look used to make me feel better(Like she understood the gravity of her choices). Now it breaks my heart to see her so desperately still trying to make amends this many years later.

We have a mature and much less co dependent M today that makes us both happy. I will never look at my wife the same. She will never look at me the same either.

We now have love that is chosen freely, everyday, based on respect, autonomy and mutual benefit.

R does happen sometimes

DobleTracion,

Yes, he did in fact tell his affair partner he loved her and I struggled with this, but I also realized he showed me love far more than he ever did her. He treated her terribly which also showed me how starved for any attention this nasty woman was. The word "love" can be thrown out so easily. His actions afterwards proved to me that he had none for her. It was almost frightening how callously he discarded her on day one after so long. There was never any further contact and the admission of relief that she didn’t have a secret over him and could be finished was backed up by his actions. He claims to have placated her to keep his life and reputation intact. I am not naive. I am sure he enjoyed her attention and admiration, but there was no actions or love. She was sick? "Sorry to hear that see you next week", yet he’d be running to the store for NyQuil for me and fixing comfort food. Things like that are what showed me where his true feelings were. Don’t get me wrong, none of this is a justification or letting him off the hook. He was a broken asshxx for a long time and his lack of feelings for her didn’t make it hurt less. It just helped me reconcile if he was willing to do the rest of the work.

I also might add that I look at marriage far differently than I suspect most and certainly differently than our culture. Marriage has far more commitments and nuances than a simple love and vow of fidelity. In all other areas of my marriage I was getting what I needed. I wasn’t going to throw it all out because he wasn’t faithful. I know many feel differently and I respect that. Like I said, we’re all unique in our needs and emotional make up.

I think better advice to a ws is be sensitive to the idea they may not want to hear it and not argue. My husband wanted me to say it and he didn’t want to say it back for some period.

His philosophy was I wasn’t loving him during the affair but he wanted me to express love to him both in actions and in words. Every bs is different.

This has nothing to do with an affair. My husband got a great job across the country and had to leave immediately. The children and I stayed behind. His parents lived out of town and mine were ill. No one was available to care for my young children for more than a few days so traveling back and forth did not happen. I had a toddler and two in school. So life went on. I did get help long enough to visit to buy a house. He was so swamped with work he only flew home twice. It lasted a year before we could move. During that year I found freedom. Ate in bed, watched tv in bed, cooked what I wanted. I looked after my wonderful children but found out I was fine on my own. One day I realized I could not feel much love for my h. It came back after we all moved but it took a while. Then he was so stressed trying to start our business he decided I was the problem and wanted out. I asked him to give my job time so I could be self sufficient and one day he yelled from the other room, "I love you!" and he does. Love is an action and those two times we stopped doing the work. Now I cannot even think about not loving him.