SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi all.

Full disclosure I wrote a full account of everything here. But then realised there is a slim chance that people involved could piece this together and there's too much information involved that isn't public yet so I had to change it. So this is slimmed down version.

Sorry I haven't got all the terminology right yet. Please correct me. I'm a fast learner.

My wife and I have been married for 15 years. In what I thought to be, a good marriage. 3 kids all under 10. Nothing like this has ever happened before (to my knowledge) and we were both really happy (she denies this, see later, but just a few months before I have a card from her for no reason but her just telling me how much she loves me etc etc).

I went through a time of being suspicious of my wife on Facebook. I worked on trusting - but in a moment of weakness I checked again and sure enough a work colleague who had been previously had been messaging and this time was making a massive deal about how good a certain work day was. I confronted my wife and she said she was sorry but very upset that I didn't trust her. She then proceeded to give me the best date night of my life. That night we were intimate and she tried some stuff we'd not done before.

Next thing I know, I'm going to counselling for my trust issues and I get back to see her fiddling with the dash cam. I looked at it weirdly as she had been out all day. And again she blew up for me not trusting her.

She then proceeded to announce that she no longer loves me and had struggled to do so for a long time. This didn't add up with my experience but she was adamant that this was the truth.

We spoke to some people we knew, who told us we had an unhealthy relationship where I was overly needy and controlling and she was a people pleaser. Don't get me wrong, it kindof rings true and I did have issues and there were things in our marriage that we should have talked about and didn't. But I had been convinced I was much worse than I was, I feel. Afterwards she disappeared for several hours before coming home stinking of new perfume, the car littered with loo roll and wet wipes. But having heard everything - I now had to trust her.

This sort of thing started happening more regularly and every now and again I would confront one of the out-of-ordinary things and she would blow up for not trusting her. I'm talking sexy selfies that she 'took for herself'. One time I walked in on her in the shower with her phone above her head and she said she was changing the music track. She started dressing more sexually, got new perfume, heavier on the makeup and started shaving downstairs which she'd not done before. She's even got higher heeled trainers that she only wears to the suspected meet-ups. I haven't accused her of meet ups. It's just in my mind.

In short, I have been forced into this 'you have to trust' situation while she is doing increasingly more suspicious things. Now she disappears for 30 minutes regularly, dressed sexy (or baggy jumpers over something).

I found a note about sending photos, which she assured me she never sent and she sent some harmless selfies and deleted it and the user straight away after. I never saw the proof other than the handwritten note. But again, I trusted her.

It's been 4 months of us working on us. We're in individual counselling, couples counselling but she just keeps getting distant and refuses to commit to working (or even giving it a shot - though she does say she hasn't left yet and is still going to counselling, so that's true). She keeps mentioning April as a marker point, as if that's when she's gonna give up.

Anyway things were getting worse last week. Meet ups increased. Fishy work meetings. And morning and evening routines with the phone in locked or cornered rooms. I've caught her with the phone a few times, and seen her take a photo once. But usually she's able to close it all before I get there. And she always makes a massive point that she would NEVER cheat on me. She always leaves her phone around when nothing is going on, as if to say, feel free to not trust me. But she's changed her phone password and I know from previous history searches she sends read-once messages anyway.

I bet I'm sounding paranoid now. The people we have spoken to, with the exception of my own counsellor agrees this is me being crazy.

Curiosity got the better of me and I checked her phone history (don't ask, it was tricky!) and sure enough, since September there have been a string of sites that set the scene. Starting with 'how do I delete Facebook messages' and 'can facebook messages ever be restored'. To 'how to stop liking over someone you can't be with'. How to get divorced. How do kids handle divorce. Etc etc. More recently it was web cam footage for certain places. And now eventually it's progressed to flat listings.

Every day now (we both work from home, although that's gonna change) she goes out for meetings that either get cancelled or moved at the last minute dressed and smelling amazing. The other day she came home with a but load of wet wipes and told me she had to use the toilet in the car.

The problem is I love her dearly still. And if I confront her with mediocre evidence again, she's just gonna turn it on me. I can't film or record anything because then I'm the bad guy again for not trusting. Short of catching them mid full-blown intimacy, she has an excuse for EVERYTHING. Trust me. There are stories here I'm too embarrassed to share. So even if I film her taking sexy selfies, it doesn't really achieve much. Worse still, if she finds the devices before they catch anything - I'm basically a dead man. When she goes out, I have the kids, so I can't follow her (and again, shouldn't really anyway). Equally if she learns I don't trust her, I'm the guilty one.

I don't really know what to do. She's not been herself since this started and it's just getting worse. I feel like I'm being manipulated and that's something she never ever would have done before.

Am I just getting paranoid here? Is there any hope here. Should I let this run its' course and wait for them to get caught? Help please.

EDIT: one other thing, I was the main breadwinner - until last year when we switch roles a bit. She is now the main earner for the house. She pays 75% of the mortgage and I am the caregiver to the kids and work part time with my small business. So 'kicking her out' isn't really an option, and neither is leaving. I refuse to leave my kids, I won't do that. And kicking her out is sort of what she wants I think? So I'm the bad guy for wanting her to stay. Once again.

[This message edited by bobbo at 4:14 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

I’m so sorry for what you are going through. I’m sure others with excellent advice will respond soon. But I want you to know that what I am seeing here is a cheating spouse lying, gaslighting and manipulating her husband. EVERY time my gut felt things were off, or the explainations were fishy, I let him convince me I was wrong, and he made me feel bad for doubting him and ruining everything. He was still actively cheating and unwilling to commit to an honest marriage with me. EVERYTHING I suspected was true, and worse than I could have imagined. It was a nightmare that took two years to get to the beginning of the truth.

I want to encourage you to look deep into yourself for strength and adhere to your values and out your wife on her ridiculous lies. Several of the ones you were given were used with me too, and the tiniest voice inside me kept saying this makes no sense, but he was so adamant and convincing and ultimately got mad at me for asking for answers. Just refuse to accept another silly story about what you really know to be true. She is cheating on you and not committed to working on your marriage. Make her choose you or choose to leave you sooner rather than later. Call her bluff, dig in and make your boundaries known. Living alone is a better life choice than living a lie with someone who claims to love you and is actively destroying you.

My spouse admitted years after the A ended that he knew I wouldn’t leave and wasn’t ready to stop having his cake and eating it too. I am still appalled by that and wish I had kicked him out day one so he could have gotten his priorities straight. He knows now I will leave in an instant if he ever disrespects me with another lie and he understands what he has with me and what is at risk.

Please protect yourself. I love my H with my whole heart and made some stupid choices in the shock of discovery and those choices still hurt me today, because I allowed myself to stay in a demeaning "relationship" with a liar who broke my heart over and over. We are still together but the damage to what we had and how I feel about him now is permanent.

Please take care, and decide what you are willing to settle for, and don’t settle for anything less. Don’t let your wife’s broken character break you any further. Good luck finding your way out of the mess your wife has made. Get some support and take care of yourself.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 3:52 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

You’re not paranoid. I’d usually advise hiding a voice activated recorder in her car but it sounds like there’s a good chance she would find it. If she’s leaving her phone out she might have a burner. Search her car and closet. If you have wifi check to see if any unfamiliar devices are connecting to the network.Hire a PI if you can afford it.

Cancel the couples counseling. It’s worse than useless with an active cheater. Your money would be better spent consulting with a solicitor.

Hi. Welcome to SI. Read in the healing library. Others will come along with good advice. No, I don't think your paranoid, but you do not have definitive evidence. You're in limbo and that's a terrible place to be.

To resolve your doubts about your WW's fidelity, take action. Hire a PI if you can afford it.

At the same time quit trying to "win" her back. I realize you want to keep your M and nuclear family together. Totally normal. But you can't control her. You can't force her to want your M. Sounds like she has checked out of your M, whether she is cheating or not. As hard as that is to accept you can't force her to love you.

Take steps to heal you

Get stronger for you. Get a new job or start a new business. Exercise. Get stronger for you. Make your life what you want, understanding your kids needs come first. Focus on you and your children.

If your WW changes her mind and comes around she has to win you back.

Take care of you. Stop chasing her.

Good luck.

bobbo

Condolences on your situation. Being on a forum for people who were cheated on is terrible. but the silver lining is that you have found the BEST such forum.

You're going to get lots of excellent, actionable advice here, so I am going to focus on the big picture. Unfortunately, it is a harsh one.

Your wife is no longer the person you married and the marriage that you had is OVER. Now, you might be able to stumble into a different type of marriage with your wife, but YOUR WIFE SHOULD NO LONGER BE A PRIORITY FOR YOU!

You need to be laser focused on (1) Yourself, (2) Your children and (3) Your means to secure your and your children's future from the shrapnel of your wife's reckless infidelity. Everything else is NOT A PRIORITY

Now, why are you so afraid of your wife's anger at your legitimate questions? What's the worst that can happen if your wife finds out you are snooping on her? Since she is the main breadwinner now, she is the one who will be financially on the hook should you divorce her.

What am I missing here?

Most of the time, our instincts are correct. Don’t doubt what your gut is telling you. Besides there are many many red flags that would point to your wife cheating on you and planning on leaving you. I am very sorry you are in this situation. It hurts like hell. I’ve been there.

Collect whatever evidence you can (date, time, facts) but do not confront your wife for the time being. Wait until you have solid proof. Sooner or later, cheaters mess up and leave evidence behind.

You are in a very vulnerable place right now so you won’t be able to think clearly. Get yourself a therapist/counselor to get stuff off your chest. Talk to a friend whom you trust. Stay off of alcohol and drugs. See a divorce attorney for a free consult. You want to be prepared when April comes and she asks for a divorce. The one who leaves is the one with the control. Meaning, when she asks for a divorce, and you come out strong with "sure, these are my terms, take it or leave it" it will take her by surprise and it might wake her up from her stupidity.

DO NOT DO THE pick me dance. I am guilty of it and i wish i had not done it. If you are not sure what it is, read up on it. It is counter intuitive but standing strong and pushing the cheater away is actually the fastest way to get them to get their head out of their ass. When they realize what they stand to lose, they wake up pretty fast. This may give your marriage a chance to survive but if your wife chooses to leave, then at least you maintained your dignity. It’s a win win to do NOT DO THE PICK ME DANCE. Trust us on this one.

Please heed the advice of SI members here who genuinely care and know what they are talking about.

[This message edited by cedarwoods at 6:17 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

First off, you are NOT WRONG to be digging into your W’s phone, social media, email, etc. Seems to be the worst-of-the-worst sins for a Millennial (I’m assuming you are) to look at your spouse’s phone. Nonsense! In a marriage, PRIVACY is for dropping turds in the loo. What your wife is doing is SECRECY and that has NO place in a healthy marriage.

That said, what your W is doing has ALL the earmarks of her stepping out. You need hard evidence of her shenanigans before you confront her again.

You mentioned her now being the breadwinner. I may get flamed for this, but SOME women don’t react well to that change of dynamics and lose most/all respect. Some of your language strikes me as you possibly being co-dependent on her.

My immediate advice would be for you to start investing in yourself hard-core. It sounds like your M is all but over but investing in yourself will pay dividends regardless of whether this M lasts or your next relationship.

Keep posting!

Hi gr8ful. You’re not the first to call me Co-dependent so well spotted. Would you mind elaborating on ‘stepping out’. Do you mean literally catching a breath or something else?

Everyone else thanks for your kind and helpful words. It’s all a bit crappy and not wildly inspired or energised to do anything fit myself or otherwise. At the moment the capacity to look after the kids is taking everything.

Would you mind elaborating on ‘stepping out’. Do you mean literally catching a breath or something else?

In this context stepping out means cheating, as in stepping outside of the relationship.

Ah thank you

Hello Bobbo.

My story is very similar.

MC, a lot of secrecy and activity with the phone, sudden mood changes, changes in appearance, even hair removal, etc...

My daughter saw the Tinder app installed on her phone.

Conversations about whether EA is infidelity....etc....I've had a very bad time, medication, IC.

I was lucky enough to get her phone open, to configure my new one, just purchased. As we were meeting with her family, I was able to be absent and discover a conversation on WhatsApp on Valentine's Day with her "friend": He was inviting her to a trip, I like you a lot, little faces throwing hearts...

In 2023, D2 day, the same... I was able to get it open, I don't remember how.

I have done "pick me dance", separation for 7 weeks, etc...

But the only thing that has really partially worked has been the 180 tactic. https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/

.I got her password, access to her phone and a commitment from NC.-In Valentine's week this year, I discovered that she has unblocked the contact.

Get used to the idea that your marriage is broken. It will no longer be the same. It has an expiration date.

Luck.

[This message edited by Littlepuppet at 7:58 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

Hi, when I read

The problem is I love her dearly still. And if I confront her with mediocre evidence again

, you have to ask yourself who you love, I mean it. Which person do you love, do you know that person, is that person around? Come on, you know she is cheating on you, what kind of evidence do you need to convince yourself that you can stay together with her?

The problem is I love her dearly still.

She knows that, and is using it to manipulate you to the maximum possible extent. Full-on gaslighting, where she is basically telling you that black is white and up is down. You love her, so you try to believe it. But your spidey sense knows...

"You're right. I don't trust you because you aren't acting trustworthy."

Well that's much harder to say in practice with a whole lifetime of being brainwashed that trust ought to be unconditional in a marriage.

Maybe you'll get to where you can tell her that. Maybe not.

Here's my practical, non-infidelity busting advice. Stay the low earner as long as humanly possible in the work up towards the divorce. In a no-fault divorce, the low earner wins. That's just the way the system works. She could ask for an alimony adjustment later, after you start earning again, but it's better to start with that baseline.

As for my infidelity related advice. You have enough proof. She is cheating. She is lying. You could hire a PI or plant an VAR, but she has you shitting you pants to so much as look over her shoulder. Hope you find the strength to find safety for yourself. You are currently in real danger. Emotional and physical. She could be getting diseases and give them to you.

I have formal training in investigating things, and part of that training was to discern between gut-feelings/instinct, and hard evidence. I remember an instructor used a quote that went something like: When you hear the beating of hooves you expect horses to come round that bend, not zebras.
With that quote he was pointing out that very often our expectations were correct, our instinct and gut-feelings, but there was always another possibility… You always base your findings on what you can confirm but might use your suspicions to guide you to the correct conclusion.

Based on what you share I can determine that there is something unhealthy (for the relationship) going on, and its probably infidelity of some form or another, but I still don’t think you have enough to 100% confirm she’s having a sexual relationship with someone else, or what nature that relationship might be. If I were to apply the methodology of my previous profession: I have reason to investigate further, but not enough to issue charges…
Want to mention one thing: Basing the dynamics of your marriage on the couch-comments of a friendly couple is a big no-no. A seasoned MC could make these comments, but that would be followed by an action-plan that you two would implement. That couple could just as well have diagnosed a pimple as cancer with about as much accuracy and accountability.

Being from the UK and your comment about the loo-paper (a dead giveaway you are a Brit) and the state of the car… I find that carelessness disturbing… leaving the vehicle in that state indicates a lack of concern about discovery and a certain… untidiness in her actions… Then the short-notice and quick get-aways…
Random hookups? Of course, it could be one guy (if this is an affair) but the randomness and spontaneity might indicate it’s more of a quick "swipe right" sort-of thing. But then… that’s me hearing horses when it could be zebra’s… or maybe pony’s instead of Shire-horses...
Dogging?
This in turn increases what should be a major concern for you: The immense and real chance of catching a STD.

You have another thread going on discovery and proof. IMHO we tend to go to extremes on that subject. I want you to accept a couple of statements regarding possible infidelity:
Being in the UK her actions won’t have ANY impact at all if this leads to divorce. Wont affect support, division of assets, custody… nothing. There is no need to "prove" infidelity as far as Big D goes. The level of proof you need is based on that. There is a certain level of proof needed for legal reasons – reasons you don’t have. The ONLY proof YOU need is to convince yourself.

I also seriously question the value of exposure-threats like sending the evidence to family as suggested and grabbed by you on another thread… If the evidence is graphic enough you could even be facing serious charges for revenge-porn. At the best it can cause some temporary embarrassment for her, but a label of impulsiveness and even abuse on you from the recipient. Yes – expose, but not that way…

Do you think that the only thing stopping her from dressing up and hooking with someone else is that you don’t know? That you can’t prove it? Do you think that if you were to catch her at some motel with another man it would instantaneously make her stop?
I have a feeling that even if you confronted her with DNA evidence, PI recordings and glossy photos of her in the act it wouldn’t change much… Only change will be that it removes the secrecy…

What can change things is if YOU are convinced, and that YOU demand change.

You state that you love her and therefore your deepest wish is to keep the family intact.

True?
Is that really true?
If so – then why take any chances? Why risk rocking the boat?
If there is no greater loss than destroying the present form of "family" and the loss of her from your life as wife… Then why not simply accept she’s meeting other men? You could discreetly ask her to shower and take precautions. I would recommend you have STD tests done regularly… But if losing her love is the BIGGEST fear… why risk it?

If that doesn’t sound good then really reconsider what it is you fear…

I put this to you:
The worst possible outcome from the present situation is SHARING your wife.
Knowing that although she might be home in some aspects – like she might cook meals, you two share the chores, pay the bills, have a good time with the kids and maybe occasional cuddles and sex – then in other aspcets she’s with another person (or persons…).

Does that sound acceptable? Could it be that Im correct that your worst fear is not losing her, but sharing her?

IMHO we on this site tend to focus on two distinct ways to handle infidelity. We think the key is to reconcile or divorce. I don’t’ agree… I see R and D as two paths that might be available to us. To reconcile your spouse needs to want to walk with you, to divorce it’s enough that one or both want to go that route.
I don’t think those two paths are the options that you should be choosing from right now.
I think your choices are limited to do you want to remain in infidelity or do you want out of infidelity?

Do nothing and you remain in infidelity. If you neither recognize nor accept her behavior and then learn to live with it (as in an open marriage sort-of thing…) you are remaining in infidelity. Think this through: There are dozens of situations where one spouse has a lover and the other knows about it – directly or indirectly. Remember that French president who died late last century and at his public funeral his hearse was followed by his wife and kids, and then a few feet behind his mistress and kids? Well… You could go that path… but then its acknowledged and no longer infidelity… Technically you would be out of infidelity…
If that doesn’s sound so good (and I personally couldn’t do the above) then your options are limited… but require your actions and decisions.

You can decide to get out of infidelity using the two paths I mentioned: Reconcile or divorce.

Just remember what I said about those paths: You BOTH need to be on-board to reconcile.

First of all she can’t be on-board if she doesn’t know she’s reconciling… So confrontation is inevitable.
Since there are only two paths out of infidelity – R and D – and right now she’s not committed to R… what’s the logical deduction?
Yep… If you want out of infidelity your only path is to end the marriage…

But keep some things in mind…
You don’t divorce simply like that. It’s a process. It takes time.
It’s a two-part process: the emotional part and the legal/logistical part.
It TAKES TIME and its not irreversible.
Right until the last page is signed and notarized you two can stop the process.

What I suggest has been called the Bigger Speech. Definitely put your words to it, but it goes something like this:

"Wife. I love you and envision a life together forever. I realize we have issues, but I would have wanted to work on fixing those issues. I feel our kids deserve we give this our best. However… I have realized that there is something immensely worse than losing you. That is sharing you. When you are sexting with other men, meeting other men and having sex with other men I am AT BEST sharing you.
I don’t share my wife. I do not want what you are offering.
I know you have stated you want out of the marriage. I was hoping we could work on things, but your decision to be in infidelity makes that impossible.

I am therefore absolving you of any expectations and obligations as my wife. You are free to be with any man you want. I would ask you out of common decency and to protect our kids to be as discreet as possible, but that is up to you.
I am starting the process of ending our marriage. I think we need to decide when and how to tell our kids and decide on a timeline for when we move our separate ways. For now we need to cohabit but we can find ways to do so amicably. There are laws and procedures that should ensure we are both fairly treated in divorce, and I intend to follow the advice of a solicitor on how we can do this amicably and fairly.
We need to find out an acceptable parenting plan and I suggest we get guidance on that issue.

This is a process and a procedure. There is no major change in our daily lives taking place after this conversation. If you don’t want to divorce, then there is a short window for you to let me know. We would need to take action, steps like accountability, you ending whatever infidelity you are in and we definitely both need IC and later MC, but THE FURTHER ALONG I go in my journey OUT of this marriage the less inclined I will be to return."

Then you go and watch the type of football with the kicking you guys seem to like. Or make a sandwich. Whatever…
What you DON’T do is continue the confrontation.

If she says "You are too insecure and that’s why I have to [put any reason here]" your response is "I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working at reconciling our marriage we would need to address this, but since you are committed to your infidelity there isn’t really any benefit for us to do so now".
In fact – not matter what she tries to pull out of the "this-is-why-I-needed-to-do-this" hat – the above is your reply.
Same if she starts talking divorce: "I am too emotionally attached to this marriage to talk reasonably about our divorce. I will follow the advice of a solicitor and trust the process will be fair".

That’s it. No real need to talk much more about it.
There isn’t a rush. You don’t have to move out today or even next week. Heck… maybe she moves out eventually. There are other things that have priority: talking to a solicitor, gathering the info, letting stakeholders know… there is a long list.

While doing that work she can at any time let you know that maybe this isn’t what she wants… IF she’s willing to end the affair and be accountable… you can slow things down. If not… well… you and your kids are a lot better off in a stable and loving environment with two separated but loving parents rather than in a home with a wayward wife.

Regarding the suggestion in the other thread of threatening to share info…

We advocate exposure. Not for revenge, but as a tool to end infidelity. I would all day every day suggest you let stakeholders (family, mutual friends etc) know with words like "Wife and I are headed for divorce because she has chosen her infidelity over our marriage. This isn’t what I want, but it beat sharing her with other men. I would appreciate whatever input you can have with her to help her see the correct way out of her destructive behavior".

Hey Bigger
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. There are a lot more instances that I feel comprise a bigger picture (hiding pants when she gets home etc etc).

As for

A seasoned MC could make these comments, but that would be followed by an action-plan that you two would implement

We now are in MC but it’s for the fact that ‘she doesn’t love me - or anyone - anymore. And that I’m too attached. I think she has agreed to it to just show she ‘tried’. But ultimately it’s pointless if the affair is taking place, it’s all a charade. They think I am fearful and non trusting because I can’t give a legitimate reason for my checking on her. Until I have evidence she will deny everything. So I’m in limbo until I have it.

If I present evidence to her it also confirms the trust and fear issues also. So in an ideal world someone else would catch them. But I realise that’s unlikely. Although they do seem pretty clumsy about it all.

The problem is I want this to work. I can’t let it go. As someone else said she’s relying on that a bit. Maybe? Or maybe she’s trying to let me down carefully without playing her real hand so as to not hurt me? I don’t know.

But my morals say unless I can confirm infidelity, I won’t consider D. So for that reason alone, I need to know.

Either way thanks for the advice and good old UK humour 😅
Everything is very horrible and dark at the moment. It’s nice to smile again.

Bobbo,

But my morals say unless I can confirm infidelity, I won’t consider D. So for that reason alone, I need to know.

I apologize if this comes across as harsh. What would, in your view, comprise "confirming infidelity"?

Would it take a confession? Photos/videos? Text messages from your wife to the OM acknowledging sexual encounters?

Are you sure you have an indelible red line? If so, what would it be?

Hi

Would it take a confession? Photos/videos? Text messages from your wife to the OM acknowledging sexual encounters?

Not sure I ‘want’ to see any of these but ultimately yes I think proof that this is going on. Any of the above. I think my list of evidence is solid when stacked together but ultimately none of them are a smoking gun and could be explained away in a confrontation and/or discussion about this.

Years ago, I heard this story of a monkey that was rescued. It had spent its entire life secured by a three or four foot rope. It was taken to a refuge and released to be free with the other monkeys.

When thr rope was untied, it panicked, seemingly unconsolable, but once the rope was reattached, it calmed down. The rescuers quickly realized that it had become so habituated to its restraint, that it could no longer be free. Freedom was within its grasp, but it preferred its familiar prison.

The best they were able to do was to slowly add lengths to the rope, eventually adding hundreds of feet, which as a matter of course, the monkey would dutifully coil up and carry as needed. He learned to navigate his new world, but was never free in any true sense.

So often, we cannot imagine a world outside of the one we have forged in our own minds...

You've got good reasons for not trusting your W. Why do you say you have a trust issue?

Do you talk about the red flags in MC? What does the MC tell you?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:44 PM, Saturday, February 24th]