SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello there. I just joined here and have spent a couple days reading lots of great posts and information. I’ve always been sort of a psychology junkie (not professional) and am intrigued by human nature.
What I’ve read so far has confirmed, validated if you will, some of my emotions, and at the same time I’ve learned a lot.
So I confirmed what I had suspected was happening ten days ago. It wasn’t difficult to read my wife and how she was being different since reconnecting with a close friend who she hadn’t seen or talked to in quite some time. But it quickly morphed in to something. I checked phone records and saw a whole lot of phone calls, at times she always seemed busy doing things. I accused her of an emotional affair because of that and other observations I had made. She dismissed me, and asked me if I was trying to sabotage our marriage.
But things continued, and a few days later, I happen upon her phone that she left sitting there, and I confirmed the worst.
What has followed has been a lot of denials, minimizing what’s truly going on, and, of course, blaming me for a lot of things. Then a couple days later, she claimed that she had a conversation with him to tell him they needed to stop what they were doing. The following day, intercepted her phone again, and found that they had spent all day texting back-and-forth, continuing their love fest. Then again, minimizing, and claiming it wasn’t all that it seemed. And again, she was going to stop, she said.
I will be forthcoming here and say that more than three years ago, she caught me having inappropriate conversations with a female friend. It did not turn into anything physical, and I cut that person out of my life as soon as she found out. She tells me she is still not recovered from that, and she is certainly bringing it up now quite a lot. She only admits how deep things have gotten with him when confronted with too much information that I have confirmed.
Without boring you with all the details, I will say that I have already slipped up and said and done some of the things that this forum tells me not to do. But I am learning as I go. I am trying to be patient here.
The worst part about all of this is that she keeps telling me that she is going to keep him as a friend, and knock off all the indiscretions.
As I do lose this patience at times, I have gotten angry and pushed ultimatums with her. I have told her that there is no place in our marriage for her friendship after what has happened. There are a lot of tiny details that might help anyone understand our entire situation better. Feel free to ask me any questions about this. I have told her that what she is doing, what she is feeling is not as unique as she thinks it is. I have had so many mood swings, I have of course been consumed with all of this. Trying to decide what to do next. We have a blended family, our kids are grown, we do not share kids in common. I am very close with my own kids, and they would never forgive her if they found out about this. but I need my kids close to me right now. They are going to know something is up.
Any guidance on my next moves over the coming days would be appreciated. I am currently working overnight, and I left home on a very bad note with her. Now she is trying to text me and make random conversation. I want to hold fast and keep a wall up until she can snap out of the fog she has put herself in.

Welcome to SI. I'll say that you might be considered a Madhatter (MH) because you have both had an A.

I hope you've had the opportunity to read in the Healing Library, which is helpful because it contains the list of acronyms we use.

Not much help, but if she's not willing to go NC, it's difficult to think that she's willing to give up the A.

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda MacDonald and Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass may be hid resources for both of you.

Thank you Leafields. It sure becomes an interesting dynamic in that we both have transgressions here. Ironically, she asked me to read a book about how friends blur the line and become inappropriate. Seems what we expect from others differs from how we act in similar situations.
One thing I said to her was that you don’t sew stitches in a wound while it is still hemmoraging blood. We cannot begin to move forward until she stops contact and commits back. Only then can we also again discuss my own bad choices in the past.

You say that yours, while inappropriate, never got physical. Has hers? Has she gone further with this guy?

Talisman, I know they have kissed because text message from her talked about how much she enjoyed doing so. I believe her that they have not had actual intercourse yet, because of health issues she’s had, which is another factor in our marriage for sure. Anything else in between, I don’t know. She denies that, but of course she’s only admitted anything when confronted with proof. Beyond physical, they’ve exchanged “I love you” and even discussed a future together. She tells me that was just fantasy talk and isn’t at all serious, of course.

[This message edited by Sunrise80 at 10:56 AM, Monday, February 26th]

I am sorry you had to find this site but please know you will receive great advice and support.

The Healing Library is filled with great articles that can help you with various aspects of an affair (and there are many parts to an affair).

One thing you should read up on is a term called the affair fog. It describes the cheater’s mindset and "addiction" to the affair. It will help you understand why the cheater refuses to "let go" of the affair partner (AP).

Obviously the continued contact with the other man (OM) is detrimental to you and your marriage. But getting it to stop can be a monumental task.

My H had a midlife crisis affair (sooo typical) years ago. It was 6 to 9 months of hell. One minute he’s demanding a Divorce (D) to be with the other woman (OW), the next minute he’s telling me he does not want a D. It was like being a yo-yo.

We all mistakes as newly betrayed, so please don’t think we don’t understand your feelings or relate to what you are going through.

Read up on the 180. You may have to emotionally start to disconnect from her in order to protect yourself from being subjected to her affair.

In essence the 180 is designed to protect you. You stop being her husband. You stop doing favors for her. An example is if you cook dinner, you cook for yourself (& kids) but not her. Petty? Maybe. But it sets a boundary that yummy are not her living spouse as long as she cheats.

I hope this helps you.

There are great books she can read to start to mend this marriage. She needs to start putting in 100% effort into you and the marriage before she does so much damage you get tired of the same thing every single day that you decide to walk away from the marriage.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:20 AM, Monday, February 26th]

Thank you 1stWife. I have been reading and educating myself on these things. Very difficult at times but I agree, necessary. I have to admit, as she messaged me tonight asking how I was doing, and saying she just wanted to make "chit chat", that part of me wanted to break down my wall I’ve put up and embrace what she’s offering. But I remained cold and aloof. I have to. I do believe that the longer this goes on, the deeper she will get with this relationship, and the chances of us reconciling shrink and can become impossible.

You can’t make her do anything, she made her choice, and it was AP. Harsh, but true. Really see this for what it is. She’s going to continue her A because she wants too. My WW tortured me for 6 months of "He’s just a friend, we got to close but that will never happen again", all lies of course. Don’t let yourself fall for it.

You gave her a choice, she chose, now you have to act. If you say something you have to back it up, otherwise she will continue to walk all over you. Trust me, I’ve been there. When I finally realized that I was being manipulated and played, I gave up and went to D. Best decision I made. I am attempting R now, but the A didn’t end until I said the hell with this.

Also, don’t let her guilt you because you messed up with an inappropriate friendship. For sure it’s very possible that you guys didn’t resolve it, but at least when you got caught you stopped and went NC, and I assume never did anything like that again. It doesn’t justify her actions now, and she is using that as a weapon against you, as a justification for her shit behavior.

Like I said, she has shown you what she is going to do, now you have to what’s best for you and only you. I suggest you go see a lawyer, know what will happen, know your rights and the process.

Also, I suggest you blow it up. Does AP have someone in his life? If so, tell them, today. Tell her family, if it’s a coworker, tell their work. Affairs thrive in the dark, blasting it in the open is a great way to burst the bubble. Especially if AP is married or has a GF, it’s always amazing how fast the OM will throw AP under the bus when their SO finds out.

I’m sorry you are here, nothing is easy about thjs

I'm sorry this is happening, but you're handling it really well. Heed well the advice here and continue to grey rock/180. Start talking to lawyers and understand what your options are.
Also, "just a kiss" is about the biggest cliché in the cheater handbook. They may not have had full on intercourse, but I'd be willing to bet that she's minimizing. In fact, the first kiss is typically the biggest hurdle in the slippage that comes with a PA. Intercourse follows shortly afterward. Just ask any Wayward on this forum.
Stay strong.

I believe her that they have not had actual intercourse yet

Why? She’s proven she can easily lie to you multiple times now. You said you’ve been reading here, but perhaps your haven’t caught this (mostly) truism: EA + proximity = PA. She’s admitted to kissing him. That’s already a PA in my book, and I’m sorry, but this isn’t Junior High - adults go sexual once the "kiss" barrier is crossed (almost) always.

I would demand a full *written* timeline from her. Give her only a day or two to complete. Then tell her she will sit for a polygraph to confirm the timeline is 100% accurate and complete. Work with the examiner to also ask if she’s had ANY physical contact (examiner will work with you to define this) with anyone other than you and OM since you became an official couple whenever that was. If she throws your EA(?) in your face, tell her you will also sit for a poly to make it even.

If she refuses the poly, I highly advise going strength: file for D and tell her she has until the D is final to convince you to stop it. No more pick-me dances. No more hopium pipes. Take another truism from here: you must be willing to lose your M in order to save it.

[This message edited by gr8ful at 3:38 PM, Monday, February 26th]

Yes I am fully keen on the fact that intercourse will occur if NC is not established. I am not holding out to wishful thinking, and I can no longer trust her at her word. Here’s another crazy aspect of our story, she battled cancer and nearly died. It took a lot out of us and unfortunately a lot of resentment remains, as much as I feel I did all I could to be the strong one dealing with that (and her mother too who was dying at the time). So our personal issues have been profound and a lot of bitterness remains regarding how we have viewed the past couple years together.
But with so many ongoing issues, intercourse is one that has been interrupted a lot, and I do vouch for the fact that she’s been concerned about physical health "down there" for a few months.
And you know, I just accompanied her to the doctor about that too and she was told she’s okay for intercourse. So just one more thing that makes me want to vomit knowing it could now just progress to that level.
So yeah I appreciate the comments here so much. I do know I need to be strong in my resolve. This needs to end immediately or I have to be okay with D. I have in fact spoken with a lawyer. Laws where I am are not complicated and truly I will get over the financial aspect of that within two years should we divorce. I’m not afraid of being alone. I do believe she thinks I am and will not leave unless I’ve found my own AP to replace her. But that’s okay, I can’t be concerned with that. You’re absolutely correct, I need to do what is right for me and only me. I feel for those who have kids in the way of all this. I’m heartbroken enough wondering what becomes of our dog.

Good for you!

Remember she is your wife, she chose you above all others. If that inappropriate relationship you had was a deal breaker she could have left then, instead she chose to stay as your wife. There’s no caveats with that. Cheaters are all the same, I got similar crap thrown at me during the A, that I wasn’t x or y, and I did this or that 10 years ago. Same ole song and dance. It’s nothing but manipulation to justify the A. If she wanted to be with someone else she should have been an adult and talked to you and allowed you to know and again, she could have left. Now she is your wife in name only.

It’s really hard. Remember, grey rock is to protect yourself so that you can be strong and do what you need to. It’s going to be hard, emotional. You will question yourself if you’re really doing the right thing. Trust that you are. After her and AP go all the way and then he dumps her, (which will eventually happen almost guaranteed), she will probably coming crawling back. Don’t confuse desperation with love.

So you know there has been kissing.
For the sake of argument then let’s assume that’s "all". Let’s deal with what we know, rather than what we might assume.
What is clear is that she’s crossing a line. Going places that are outside the expectations of marriage.

It’s also clear – by your own admission – that at some point you crossed some line.
Now – there is little to gain in arguing who went further and who did what and what is worse and all that.

What I will suggest is addressing the issue.
Not waiting for her to decide as a gradual process, or for you to wait without confrontation.
You are both adults, you are both free to do whatever you decide to do, but you are both free to refuse to accept behaviors that you don’t agree with.
My suggestion would be to be direct:
"Wife. I know about OM. I know you have kissed and there is some spark or romance between you. I can’t stop you from taking that whatever way you want to. But you have got to realize and see that our marriage – our relationship – isn’t sustainable if you want to create an emotional, romantic and even physical relationship with OM.
I know I went a comparable path some years ago. I acknowledge it was wrong. But this isn’t something that we can even out.
I want to save our marriage, but if you truly believe your happiness will be found with OM then go there. Be with him. Date him. Fall in love with him.
BUT NOT AS MY WIFE.
Have the honesty, courage and decency to let me know you want him and then we will work at terminating our marriage.
Or… have the honesty and courage to work on our marriage and make me belief you are in NC with OM.
Its your call. I won’t hold you from whatever you deem your path to happiness, but I definitely refuse to share you or be your warden. If you want me and our marriage you need to let me know, and do so directly and verbally. We can then commit to how we try to work things out.
There is a book called Not Just Friends, along with some exercises, that I suggest we both read together. If that helps us realize where we are headed then maybe we can find a path out."

That’s it. You make her chose because at the end of the day the power of choice is in her hands. Only… she can’t choose you and the OM. She can’t have her cake and eat it too. She needs to choose between the two and then commit.

Sounds drastic and risky… Yet all you are doing is stating the obvious. At the moment she already has this power, only she is getting away with non-commitment.

Bigger, you are very much laying down my own thoughts just as I’m feeling them! It’s why I’m so grateful to have found this group and have been reading posts from other situations and seeing how much they mirror my own. I don’t want to be D. But I’ve quickly had to decide that I cannot sustain life like this, and really neither can she.

I’m going to steal your word, "warden". I really like that. Because that’s exactly the situation that’s been created. She’s created a prison at home and forced me in to a role as warden, while she continually seeks ways to escape, if only for moments at a time.

Thank you also for pointing out, it’s futile to debate who did worse. I know she thinks I did because I did it first. I just also know that when I was caught, it took about four seconds for me to decide to end it and create a NC policy with the OW. I’ve held fast to it for three and a half years and never looked back. It’s so maddening that she is even having a difficult time doing the same. But she has very clearly become emotionally vested in the AP, something that never happened with me. Not minimizing my own awful behaviour. I just know where that stood and I was actually quite relieved to end it.

Yes I am fully keen on the fact that intercourse will occur if NC is not established. I am not holding out to wishful thinking, and I can no longer trust her at her word…..

But with so many ongoing issues, intercourse is one that has been interrupted a lot, and I do vouch for the fact that she’s been concerned about physical health "down there" for a few months.
And you know, I just accompanied her to the doctor about that too and she was told she’s okay for intercourse.

Like others have said, intercourse MAY have already occurred. How long exactly has she been in contact with the OM? How does that aligns to her issues "down there"? Very convenient way to keep you from having sex and a "built in excuse" if you question her about intercourse with OM. "Honey, you KNOW the Dr. says I can’t do that". Also, kissing IS a PA. There are other types of sex outside of PIV (HJ,BJ, anal) or even just getting naked and caressing each other. What exactly IS "crossing the Rubicon" for you? She ONLY admits to things you have proof of and now that she knows you are onto her, you aren’t going to find anything else out by looking at her phone. They will be extremely careful now.

You say you have been reading here for a while. If so, you are likely aware of the "Cheater’s Handbook". Lying, minimizing, only admitting to things that have irrefutable proof, all "ILYs" and talk of a future together are "just fantasy", etc. Marrying Brad Pitt is a fantasy. Telling another man ILY and planning a future together is Betrayal, pure and simple. The false equivalency to your "inappropriate relationship/EA" is her shifting blame and justifying her conscious decision to cheat.

I speak from experience. I caught my wife in an EA 2 years into our marriage. We fought and she went to her mother’s. She asked to come home and I agreed on the condition she go NC. She agreed. She didn’t go NC, the affair lasted 6 more months, went physical and they had sex in our house while my son slept. My WW went on to have 9 more affairs over the next 19 years. The biggest mistake of MY life was letting her come back home and trusting her when she said she would go NC.

You have evidence she is in an EA/PA. Going NC is the minimum acceptable first step if you plan to R. You should also ask her for a full disclosure of the affair with a complete timeline. Also a disclosure and timeline of any other inappropriate contact/affairs since you became exclusive. This should be followed up by a polygraph. OR, you can say "I know enough" and proceed to D.

Good luck on this shitty journey…..

Definitely these are all considerations that have gone through my head. I know they began talking in the middle of January and that she texted a mutual friend near the end of January and lied to him and said she and I were separated, that she didn’t know where things were going yet with AP.

Anything of course is possible and I know a lack of intercourse, if I were to presume that hasn’t happened, certainly does not mean other sexual things have not occurred. What is my tolerance level? I just don’t know. Would it change things right now if I learned that a HJ or BJ occurred? Perhaps. But mostly I’m already resigned to accepting that she has gone so far as to do what I know she’s done and seems intent at times at following where her heart has led her, to AP. It’s going to be difficult to ever deal with in my mind no matter what even if we do R.

Not sure what I’ll say to her today. Inconvenient to her game she’s been playing, I’m off work the next couple nights. From all the guidance I’ve been receiving here, I feel it’s important to say at least one thing a day to remind her how shitty this all is and that as much as I would fight to the death to defend our marriage, I am also ready to walk away should she refuse to accept responsibility and declare a NC policy.

Sunrise,

You can say whatever you want, but it will not be heard. Do not say anything about you will fight for this marriage, that is doing pick me dance still. If she gets her act together and goes NC etc, then maybe you can talk about R and fighting for marriage.

Tell her, flat out, we are done. Go be with AP, I will have my lawyer contact you. Nothing more. And here is the trick, you have to mean it. Don’t confront until you are ready to walk away. She knows what to do to even give your M a chance, if she wants to she will.

Don’t say anything else. Do your absolute best to keep it cool and without any feelings. Say that and only that, then walk away, or better just go out with friends or family and enjoy the night. Don’t answer her if she calls, don’t answer texts.

Nothing else you say will make her suddenly see the light. She is happily eating her cake and that’s all that matters to her.

Just wanted to promote Bigger’s advice and The 180.

She must go NC. You can’t force her, and you don’t want to. You want her to organically comply. She must want to go NC because she prefers you and the marriage over him, not because it is a condition that you have put forth.

Ultimately, you want to avoid limbo. You want to be free of infidelity and in a genuine, wholesome reconciliation or divorce. Avoid making unhealthy, unsustainable concessions that compromise your integrity and your true happiness.

Set her free to follow her true desires and then you begin to go your own way. Lay down your expectations, and then turn away, 180 degrees, from her wayward behavior and begin your journey out of infidelity. Let her see you progressing down that road out of infidelity. After you’ve laid down your expectations, and she fails to comply, your journey begins with an emotional 180 degree turn away from her followed by a progressive physical turn-away and then departure.

Your journey out of infidelity will progress by many obvious degrees giving her ample warning, multiple opportunities, and adequate time to process out of her affair fog, take action and change your course and save the marriage.

If she does not intervene, then your course is crystal clear, and you proceed with your exit plan.

Thank you Reality. One of the most difficult thinks to accept is that it’s in her hands. Forcing anything out of her only delays the inevitable and why would I want her if she’s only here because I’m putting pressure on her. I can only say the same thing so many times and she has to make her own choices.

It hasn’t escaped my mind that she thinks her mind is made up and she’s just waiting for me to walk away. I get that too. I know there’s so much in this forum discussing how the 180 causes change and sometimes it’s that cold shoulder that brings a WS back to reality. I have to admit, I don’t know how badly I would want her back if she did come crawling. I guess that remains to be seen though.

One of the most difficult thinks to accept is that it’s in her hands.

Exactly. Her destiny is in her hands, you in yours.

As a BS, we’re compelled to try and save the marriage, usually to our detriment. Sometimes we do it by accepting blame for the affair and more than our portion of blame for any marital dysfunction. We do this because it gives us the illusion of control over the outcome.

"All I have to do is be a better husband and she’ll come back to me and everything will be alright."

Sometimes we will love bomb, pick me dance, make very compromising concessions, allow fence sitting, door matting, reframing of boundaries.

Sometimes we try to bully them back with rage, threats, public humiliation, reporting to HR, dislodgment, or we play on any sympathy or guilt that they might still possess.

Sometimes we animate our WSs like marionette puppets, telling them what, exactly, to do, what books to read, how to "act" remorseful, what counseling to get, what boundaries to establish. We preempt organic empathy and initiative with excessive WS hand holding and they inevitably learn remorse-rotely, they don’t actually feel it.

Reconciliation is hard even with truly remorseful WSs who are determined to save the marriage and truly desire the marriage. It’s going to take you many months of reconciliation before you can make an initial determination as to the authenticity of their remorse. It’s going to take time and consistent actions over time before you can make that determination.

So, R is a huge leap of faith that you’re both making. You’re blindly trusting that she’s truly remorseful and she’s blindly trusting that you might someday have her back, maybe even forgive. None of you know for certain if either of you are R material until you make that leap.

But, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Your WS is still in the affair.

On your journey out of infidelity, your WS will be met with many sobering, bracing reality checks up to and including a slap-up-side-the-head service of divorce papers. If that doesn’t break her from her fog, then nothing will, and nothing else should.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 1:12 AM, Tuesday, February 27th]