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So my divorce was finalized in 2021, although D Day was in 2018. Since the divorce my ex and I have done vacations together with the children, because they were very young and really struggling, especially if I was not around as I am the primary caregiver. Mostly it’s been fine, I was so nervous before the first trip but it worked out ok. These trips are entirely child-orientated, and we often rent apartments / houses so there are lots of bedrooms (although two of the children still prefer sharing with a parent when away from home).

We are currently on an overseas trip and this evening we had our first argument in front of the children in, probably, ever (even after D Day the screaming and crying was done while the kids were asleep / out of the house). He’s conflict avoidant, so I admit I was the one to lose it. And over something silly - where to go for dinner.

The thing is, dinner was the straw that broke the camel’s back. My ex (in addition to blowing up our lives with emotionless infidelity) likes to put me down, I suspect to make himself feel better. I don’t earn enough money, am less smart than him, can’t drive as well as him etc etc. It’s all done in the guise of a joke, so usually I laughingly retort back and the moment passes. I am careful to stand up for myself, but in a way that is not too serious so that the children don’t fret.

However, I’ve been sick for the past 10 days. I was lucky to make this trip (we’re only a few days in) and at one point felt so bad that I suggested he take the children without me and I join them as soon as I was fully recovered. The children obviously hated that thought and my ex kept saying that I was better and I should take the flight. In the end I flew with them and it was ok. On our second day I regressed a bit so I’ve been resting as much as possible with three children to entertain away from home. I do feel much better, but we took a short flight today and so I was tired this afternoon.

I know that when I’m tired I have less patience. And food has been a long-running issue - he tends to feed the kids junk, while I cook from scratch. He also tends to be on his phone during meals, while I ban phones from the table when the children are with me. So today when he shot down my dinner suggestions after I’d done the research to find something decent I was fed up. So I told him he could take the children wherever he wanted, I wasn’t hungry anyway and was tired so would stay back in the apartment and get an early night.

I go to my room and start getting sorted. He comes in and says that actually he’s realised we should go to the restaurant I’d suggested. By this point it’s too late to book a table there. I tell him I’m not bothered as he’s annoyed me and I’m tired so I’m not going out.

A while later he comes back and lays into me. He says the children are refusing to go out and it’s all my fault for losing it. I go into the living room and tell the children that it’s fine, mummy’s tired so will stay back and daddy will find them somewhere to eat. I just couldn’t deal with it properly, I admit.

After another while he’s back in, again laying into me. Telling me this is a vacation with the kids, all I do is be sick, that they’re my children too, I need to sort it and that it’s my fault for overreacting. I am so angry that I argue back. We’re furiously arguing in muted voices but the children can still hear. He storms out.

I take a few minutes to calm. I feel terrible for the children. I know seeing their parents argue, really for the first time, is terrifying. I frantically google what to do when children see their parents argue.

Then I take a deep breath and go into the living room. He’s on his computer, headphones in. Kids are on the sofa. One of them is silently crying. I go over to the sofa and sort it. I explain that everyone argues, even adults, but that’s part of relationships and we’re still here. We talk about adult arguments, sibling arguments and one kid starts talking about a friend who has mentioned that their parents argue. I feel like we’re getting through it. Then my ex drops in ‘especially divorced parents argue’. Tears from the child that I know is particularly struggling with the family dynamic. I’m livid but hold it in. The children and I talk more. They calm. I suggest ordering in rather than going to a restaurant. To his credit ex begins looking into nearby options while I start reading a book out loud to the children. We finish up as the doorbell goes. While my ex is answering one child apologises for getting angry. I apologise for getting angry too, and note that that does happen sometimes. Another child calls out to daddy that he needs to apologise too as we’ve all apologised. He struggles a bit and tries to say it’s my fault, but eventually does (I’m sure because kids are telling him to rather than because he feels he should). We eat.

And now I’m so tired from writing all this out that I’m not even sure what I’m asking. I just have no-one to tell as all the travelling means that I am not seeing my therapist regularly. I just don’t know what to do anymore.

Perdita, I'm so sad for you and the children! Sounds like you and your littles handled everything as well as possible, but why is the XH being such a pain? (No need to delve into that, at this point!) I hope the rest of your journey smoothes out!

All I can say is you are one amazing woman!!!

Your kids are going to remember these holidays with such fondness and know how fierce their mum is.

Thank you both for replying. It helps knowing someone is listening. We’ve all had a better day today. XWH came into my room this morning and asked me if I was going to stop being mean. I replied that he should stop being mean. So we left it as an uneasy truce.

We went out exploring, he picked one of my suggestions for lunch and it turned out well. Did a couple of activities with the kids (we have three so often need to divide and conquer) then headed back to the apartment as they wanted to rest before heading out to dinner.

As soon as we get in XWH says he’s going off to sightsee as he’d be bored in the apartment. He does invite the children to come along but unsurprisingly (given that they were already tired) they say they’d rather stay in. Obviously I have to stay with the children, which is fine as I could do with a shower and a sit down, but I’m still a bit miffed that he’s ditching us. He never could sit still.

Dinner was a more successful affair this evening. I’d picked something that I knew my DD in particular would like. Not particularly to XWH’s taste, but he can’t have everything.

He’s got inside my head though with the jabs at me yesterday. I have been working with my therapist about feeling that I’m doing enough - I do the majority of the parenting given his job (long hours, lots of travel) so I cannot work full-time in my industry without some kind of childcare, and the children really struggled with that in the aftermath of the separation so I’m reluctant to put them into that, even if he would pay for said childcare (which I’d have to go back to court to fight for). He’s moving away from us in the next couple of months for work too, so he won’t even see them at weekends. So so much to worry about..

Your ex appears to be the glass half empty kind. He has some anger issues he disguises as humorous jabs. My thinking is it’s time to do your own trips with kids and he does the same. Please look at how tense you are. Your kids know something is wrong. They always know.

He "jokes" with you to boost his own ego.

How sad.

But for you I would suggest that when he dies this, you just not respond. Maybe even leave the room if possible.

Have a discussion with your children that this is not proper behavior and even "jokes" are not funny if they hurt someone’s feelings. Remaining silent when he does this and ignoring his behavior may eventually put a stop to it.

If not, just don’t engage.

I know your good intentions about tgis vacation but did you really think it through? Did you evaluate well your dynamics as an ex couple? Living together for the duration of a vacation is a HUGE THING! Especially with young kids who are not happy to have divorced parents.

I think you both knew you wouldn’t be able to be together for a holiday whilst getting on for the children. You had good intentions but unfortunately they are not enough. I don’t know any divorced couples who go on a joint holiday and frankly it is not hard to understand why. You are simply incompatible, hence you divorced! No idea whose suggestion it was and what your therapists thought about it but as soon as I read it, I frowned.

I think it was a very bad idea to organise a holiday together, sorry for being so blunt. You fell in the usual dynamics and in my opinion it was very confusing for the children to see you all together, not just for a meal but for a vacation. Bad mistake! Please learn from it and move on.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 5:39 AM, Monday, August 12th]

Perdita1

I hope this won’t read as harsh advice, but what I share is based on personal experience.

My step-son married his childhood sweetheart and has 2 kids with her. One day he came home from work to find her having packed his bags and demanding a divorce. She was insistent, and the divorce was finalized within a few months. No infidelity.
Despite being divorced they spent a lot of time together for the kids (1 and 5 year old). They had alternative weeks – with his weeks being supported by my family taking care of the kids so he could work – yet on weekends he would spend most Saturdays and Sundays at his old home so they could be a "family".
Same with holidays. He would be there for all holidays, and they would take vacations and trips together as a "family" – with mom and dad sleeping in separate rooms and no romantic attachment taking place.

This went on for several years.
Then there was the ski-trip they took as a "family" where she brought along Alex (whom she was dating) and his 8-year-old daughter. So now the "family" was her, the kids, my son, Alex and his daughter... That lasted about a year. Fortunately, no longer because my son wasby then dating a woman with 2 kids from a previous relationship... However, his ex refused to allow them to tag along at Christmas. My son ended that relationship to maintain the "lets be a family" charade for the kids (then 4 and 8).

I am certain that they both sabotaged each other’s new relationships. At the very least I think any sane person dating either of them would have walked away from this divorced-but-not-divorced scenario. Too complex. Imagine trying to bond a new relationship with your ex hovering about...

About 7 years after the divorce it was the ex wife that suggested they spend Christmas apart. At that time she had a new boyfriend who wanted to take her away for the holidays, so my son had the kids. He came to me feeling very let down and betrayed, and it took some serious talking to him to make him realize that divorce is a divorce and not an alternative form of marriage. I convinced him to see this as an opportunity to change to a (IMHO) healthier form of relationship where alternative weeks means alternative weeks, where they made 100% certain the kids knew they were loved, where the kids were 100% certain that even if mom or dad wasn’t there at Thanksgiving or when opening the presents or whatever that mom or dad would be back soon.

Fortunately my son took my advice. He no longer covered for her during her weeks (unless it fit into his schedule), no longer paid for an extra room if taking them on holiday, no longer based his holidays on what she wanted and so on. She did resist – she still impacted a couple of his relationships – but at least it became more obvious to him. It helped him create the proper distance between him and his ex, while at the same time making them immensely better parents to their kids.

I guess the above is a long-worded way of suggesting that this shared vacation thing is not really a good idea. If anything, I fear it gives the kids the wrong picture. I don’t think there is much benefit for the kids to have both divorced parents with them, compared to the benefits of the parent not attending maybe creating a new life – be it alone getting some needed me-time or establishing a new relationship with someone new. Happy parent = happy kids.
I also think this situation can create stress and/or maintain fissures between the two parents that can negatively impact the kids – like the argument you two had.

YES! Definitely be amicable and even spend time together. Like a day at the park as amicable coparents can get the message across that you to focus on the kids. But extended periods, shared holidays and vacations... not so much....

Thank you for the much needed perspective. I’ve been struggling with the idea of what amicable co-parenting looks like - partly because divorce is practically unheard of in my FOO so I’ve had nothing to base it on, partly because my ex-ILs have had a similar type of divorce (super-amicable for their offspring, my ex, particularly once grandchildren came along), partly because I have 3 children and they were so so young (the youngest was 16 months on D Day) and partly because I really struggle to do flights etc on my own as I am not good with planes / driving in foreign countries etc.

But yes, I guess this has been an ‘alternative form of marriage’ and it’s just not healthy. I’ll be raising it with my therapist when I get home. I’m so scared, but he is moving overseas for work soon anyway so I can see that that would be a good opportunity to shift the dynamic.

Your ex has been using you to allow him to avoid dealing with his children as a parent. In a way he sees you as his unpaid nanny on these trips. While that's really convenient for him, it's really not healthy for you or your children. As Bigger notes it will also prevent either of you establishing healthy relationships with any potential partner. Any worthy partner will nope out of that dynamic which will only leave unworthy ones.

I agree with the OP that this arrangement is more to benefit him than anyone else.

I remember my first trip post D. I rented this cabin for me and the kids. The water pipe broke and there was me and my little DS fixing it. (It was a holiday weekend and the owners could not get a plumber and did not live in the area). LOL. Is it scarey? Sure, but you learn and you grow.

What helped me was thinking closely about everything I did those early years. Do not do anything you do not want to set as a precedent for your D. IE like going on vacation with your ex, co-birthday parties, co-holidays, etc. It is important to set those boundaries or next thing you know you are vacationing with the new GF too....and her kids. And now they go out to eat and you are the babysitter for them too.

I agree that it was handy for him you were there because he is not used to dealing alone with the kids. He has exploited you.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 11:25 PM, Tuesday, August 13th]

One question

Does your therapist know you went on holiday with your ex? I find it sooooo unhealthy.

I’m not suggesting you switch to a confrontational form of coparenting or anything like that. Rather that you have a clear border on how far he’s allowed in your daily life.
Some examples:
He doesn’t get to enter your home without knocking and waiting for a response.
He doesn’t have input on meals (excepting if you were feeding your kids unhealthy stuff on a regular basis).
He doesn’t check the oil on your vehicle or suggest you change the tires or anything like that.
He doesn’t bring his shirts over for you to sew on a button.
You two don’t have unannounced visitation with the kids when it’s the others week.

Note that I’m not saying he doesn’t enter your house – he does so at your invitation. He can offer to check your vehicle – but only if you agree to it. He can ask you to sew on a button – but at your convenience... You two can be "amicable" as in you aren’t at each others throats, but that does not include playing house and pretending everything is fine – except the marriage.

All those issues – the flights, the driving and all that – can be handled with tours or taxis or whatever. Save a fortune by travelling alone or with a good friend who can also help you cover the frozen Margarita list. Heck... maybe even a new romantic interest who might treat you like a lady rather than househelp...

Thank you all for your input, and particularly those who have shared stories. It really really helps. I never intended to have such an ‘overwhelmingly amicable’ divorce. I had seen my ex’s parents do that and always thought it was odd.

My therapist is aware of the vacations, it’s probably the last big thing that my ex and I are entwined over so I’m slowly coming to terms with the idea of me vacationing with the children without him. I’ve had a couple of bad experiences when I vacationed with the children and either a nanny or my relatives so I think that’s why I struggle so much. My lawyer has also raised the vacation issue from a time / finance perspective.

Other than that I think that I have made steps to uncoupling - I deal with my house on my own now (I remember ex was most surprised when I replaced a gate without telling him) and my brothers-in-law have helped me learn how to sort my car. He doesn’t interact with my parents so celebrations that involve them do not involve him. Again, I find it hard on my own (last Christmas was a disaster) but separating him and my parents has been a hard boundary for me from the get go. He calls before coming over to my house.

I guess my biggest fear is that the children will struggle without me. I worry about food and whether they are being babysat by electronics. I’ve been much stricter about overnights over the past year though (one child was having sleep issues which meant staying with me more and I just wasn’t getting the rest I needed). Two of the children in particular still need the reassurance that I am on the end of the phone when they are with the ex, and have regular calls with me at bedtime. It’s noticeable that on days they are with me and my ex calls them the entire call is a couple of minutes, but when they are with him and call me the call can last half an hour. I have them around 80% of the time so they are used to me being around.

I’m rambling, but it’s so helpful to get it out. Thank you all so much for listening.

I’ve been following this thread and please know you are doing an amazing job. Your kids love you and miss you and you are being very supportive of them.

Unfortunately you cannot control what the STBXH does with/for kids when he is with them. If they get too much electronics for the they are with him, you just have to accept it. If 20% of the they are with him is all it is, then it’s not the worst thing as it is a small portion of their lives.

I suggest you continue to become as independent as possible and recognize you’ve been in a one sided situation for quite some time. The more you become untangled from the STBXH the better for you. While you will still have interactions b/c of the kids, in time that will become easier too.

Always encourage your kids to interact with their dad. It is important that they feel they don’t have to "choose" or "take sides". It will be very hard at times to do that but it is in the best interest of your kids. They will love you for it, especially as they get older.

You are doing an amazing job and unfortunately you have to be the voice of reason right now. But not having to deal with a lying cheating spouse has to be somewhat freeing and lessening your stress level.

Keep doing what you are doing!

I’m slowly coming to terms with the idea of me vacationing with the children without him.

Hey! If your kids are spending 80% of direct time with you, plus a daily hour-long phone call when with their dad... I want you to come to terms with the idea of YOU taking vacations with YOU!

It's important that you establish a YOU life. You need to interact with other adults, to experiment with new interests, to meet new people, to realize that there is more to life than your ex, the toxic environment he got you into and your kids. Of that lot – the kids really being the only positive.
A better you – a better rested you – a happier you – will ALWAYS be a better parent to your kids. Even if that means going to the Keys with a best friend and spending a few days reading a book, taking walks, eating new things, trying out cocktails and sleeping in.

I’ve had a couple of bad experiences when I vacationed with the children and either a nanny or my relatives so I think that’s why I struggle so much.

Now that I am on the other side of it (children are grown), let me assure you that all the mishaps during our vacations are what makes the funny memories for them as adults. When they tell the stories; those are the things they bring up. I.e., remember the time the waterpipe broke and water was shooting e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e.

So when life has thrown you those lemons, just do the best you can and it may turn into a lifetime memory. It all feels so overwhelming when you are in real-time. Heck, I remember crying in my bedroom that trip and thinking it was a disaster! But those are [thankfully] not the memories my children have of that vacation.