SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good to know the old friends with her mom are not connected to the infidelity. Hopefully she continues to ignore her mom and the toxicity she conveys.

As for your wife, honestly I’m not too concerned with the contact entries. It’s Concerning the one wasn’t blocked, but so far it sounds like your wife wants to leave anyone involved in her past at the golf course far behind. If there is contact going forward you are likely to catch it.

However, if it were me, I would make it absolutely clear to her what you need from her both in words and actions for you to stay and try to rebuild your relationship.

And the catch is, YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO LEAVE, if you don’t get it from her.

So maybe write it up and give it to her or read it to her. If I were in your shoes, it would be something like this:

"You broke my heart all those years ago at the golf course. You did not care about what your cheating would do to me. You did not care how it would pain me.

I think you’ve done good work to change since then. But I don’t feel from you the empathy that I need to know you care that it damaged me so.

So let me be clear. I need you to be on my side. I need you to care when I am in pain. And to show me that without making me feel bad that you understand I am suffering. That you care how the YOU of the past treated me so terribly, allowing others to laugh at me while they were taking advantage of what you were giving them.

And what you gave them was what was supposed to be special between us.

So when I need to talk about the past it’s because I am processing that pain. And I need to feel you care about that. I need to hear from you ‘I’m sorry I hurt you that way, let’s discuss it’ without you saying ‘do we need to see the marriage counselor’.

And if you can’t bring yourself to do that, to support me through healing in that way, then let me know and we’ll work to end our relationship and go our separate ways. If it’s not worth it to you to be that person for me, and realize that you are the cause of my pain and stand up and take responsibility for it, then I need to go find my happiness on my own without you around to remind me that you don’t care enough about me to put my pain above your own.

I won’t stay around long to see if you can change and deliver what I need to be your life partner. So think about it and let me know if you can step up and make this happen"

That’s it buddy. Say it open and honestly then move on until you see her make the change. Hope is not a strategy. You need to be brave and see that life can be better without her than it is now with her unless she can be that person.

I wish you well deciding what to do.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:47 PM, Tuesday, August 13th]

I'm glad to see you've come back, Blue. And yeah, it's only been a few months, so don't expect to be anywhere near free from this for a while. I don't know when my own pain started to lessen, it just happens slowly over time and is fairly imperceptible. One day you'll suddenly realize that you haven't thought about it in a few days. And then maybe longer. Or when you do think about it, it feels further away and not so visceral.

But I agree with a number of posters here, you do need to tell her exactly how you're feeling in those moments, and help her understand. SteveSn said it best.

Lets say you have the whole A story. Which you have a timeline and polygraph. That's good.

You should also be free to ask any questions that are plaguing you without feeling like you are walking on eggshells.

What is your wife doing to become a safe partner. The way your story and conflict with her reads, it seems like you are afraid of rocking the boat. The reality is that there still will be some amount of conflict between you and her and that you have to set expectations for your needs in order to feel safe.

You shouldn't have to "snoop" her phone because she should have already given you complete electronic transparency.

I wouldn't quite call it rugsweeping, because I think you have talked about it with her, and *she* feels like it is resolved. She then beats you into something close to "this again?"

Have you two read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" This recommendation is a great one, and one that I found extremely valuable to revisit. The characteristics of a good rebuilder. What the "detain and torture" option looks like.

You got disclosure, sure. You are probably out of infidelity. What you don't have is a safe partner and strong rebuilder supporting you.

In the last couple of days, weve had some productive conversations. A few of them, unfortunately devolved into bickering and shutdowns. But largely its been civil and has made me feel very hopeful.

When we were working through disclosure, it was hell. And I experienced an uneasy peace in the favorable polygraph. I didnt want to jeapordize that peace, I suppose. And I experienced some guilt because I called her a liar about a hundred times about things that ultimately proved to be true. Things that I am thankful were true. She did lie for a really long time, so how was I to know? And assuming lies continuing as they had prior seemed rational. Shes not mad at me for that, or has never voiced such if she is.

But I felt bad for punishing her for coming totally clean and me not being able to tell the difference, even if shes to blame for the situation. Im also afraid of it actually not being real, or in my bitterness coming to believe that she bluffed through the polygraph. So theres so many things to unpack, alot of unnamed fear, and Im so doubleminded, I cant decide what I actually feel sometimes, or if Im numbing out altogether. Its almost dissociative.

I think that not being correct in my accusations once she fully disclosed has cast a shade on my guts viability to me. And made me feel like I cant see this for what it is, since I wrote this totally certain narrative in my head that she fucked a metric shitload of people, which didnt happen apparently.

So, self doubt and chickenshitness has gotten in the way of me making a plan for what I do next, how I do it, what questions do I need answers for, etc.

Im working on it.

Some people have asked what her plan is to be a safe partner. She already has and has read "How to help your spouse heal from an affair". It was one of the first things she did, in addition to some infidelity workbooks we were recommended. Reading a book and filling out workbooks is alot different from changing your nature.
I see that since the polygraph, shes been taking a hard look at her life, trying to figure things out. She decided to do that on her own, but I participate and we talk things out a lot.
I sense a lot of her wanting to quickly perform the required functions to get back to her life with me. And frustration when that doesnt happen immediately, or theres a setback.
She obviously would like to control her way through this. She is probably bitter to be in trouble after she stopped the infidelity on her own. Those things are a risk to reaching the finish line.
She is trying, though. I feel the love.

We are mulling over some options for therapy, havent picked a direction yet. One day at a time.

Have your read "How to help..."

I'm asking to to sort of look at the book as guide. Compare her behaviors in what a good rebuilder does vs. what she has actually done. Does it square up?

"I sense a lot of her wanting to quickly perform the required functions to get back to her life with me. "

This doesn't make it clear to me that what she is doing track with the book. It demands a huge amount of patience and no expectation of a "return to normal". There is no time machine, so what do you want in the new normal? What does she want? Can you bridge the gap if there is any disagreement between the two?

I wouldn’t beat yourself up over not trusting her that you had the whole truth or not, or calling her a liar etc. I think if I were in your shoes I also would probably think the same things. I also don’t think I would know which way is up or down either. I believe those reactions are perfectly normal.

Little more than a month ago, my niece got some sick dumpster kittens, and put them in the hands of my brother, who took care of them and set about to finding them homes.

My wife never had a kitten. She had been begging me to allow us to adopt one for a long while, and about a month after the polygraph, was pining for one at the same time I happened to know where some kittens were who needed a home, so I took one.

A sweet little orange boy. Hes been so comforting for us. A real cuddlebug. When he rests on the couch, the peace on his face is just so contagious.

Well, tomorrow hes getting neutered. I didnt expect to feel this way about that. Tonight, he doesnt get to have his food or water, doesnt get to have breakfast in the morning. He’ll cry, wont understand, and to him, he will feel ignored. Then he will get boxed up and taken to the vet, which he hates, and left there. Thats never happened to him before. Then, he’ll be emasculated and be, to him, alone and without us for observation until we are given the green light to come get him.

He’ll get to come home with us, uncomfortable, hurt, and not understanding why, and eventually everything will go back to normal. But he will be permanently changed because it’s convenient for us. He wont understand.

The metaphor is too much for me. I feel sick about it. I know thats stupid. I know that its the right thing to do for him. But I had to write about it and say something.

It's not just convenience, fixed male cats live much longer than unfixed. If he doesn't go outside yet, don't let him, or build him a catio. It's a dangerous world out there for a cat.

Hope all went well. He will be ok and have a great life with you.

As for what your wife is doing I still think you need to have a conversation specifically like I documented at the top of this page. You need to be open and honest about what you need from her in order to heal.

It needs to include a discussion of how she responds to you when you are triggered about her cheating all those years ago. Being exasperated and minimizing in response pushes you away. You need to let her know that.

If she wants to be your life partner she needs to accept that she hurt you, push anside her shame and embrace the discussions that help you heal.

I hope she can.

@5bluedrops get this, "Then, he’ll be emasculated and be, to him, alone and without us for observation until we are given the green light to come get him."

What your wife did to you was very emasculating. She went to a series of other men for her sexual excitement and satisfaction, all while you were made the unknowing sucker. Of course, my wife did something similar. The people who knew, undoubtedly wondered what kind of man was at home, failing to satisfy the wife, staying when she gives her body to others. Emasculation is part of the damage.

I went to my wife's workplace where I got open sympathy from her boss and a smug look from the guy who had seduced my wife. Everybody they knew, and felt sorry for me. Their opinions on why she needed another man, and why I was still with her, written all over their faces.

I think that in general, philosophers (or whoever thinks and writes about life) recommend not worrying about what others think. IMO, it's even more important to avoid worrying about what one thinks others think.

Placing zero value on the opinions of people who know only one side of an A is definitely something that a BS needs to do to heal.

The sense of emasculation by one's partner's cheating is normal but almost always wrong. If your relevant parts are still there, you haven't been emasculated. If you feel emasculated, it's because you're letting yourself be controlled by what you think society thinks of you. It's hard to fight those thoughts, but it's necessary.

Finding out one has been betrayed damages BSes' self esteem, but the damage does not have to be permanent. Self-esteem can be rebuilt, and it takes longer to rebuild than to destroy, but self-esteem can be rebuilt.

I really hate to see people feel de-sexed because cultural messages and a betrayer's actions. We probably all know jokes that make the BS into the butt. Most of us probably think something is wrong with the BS when a public figure's A gets published.

My limited experience IRL, though, tells me that people give support to BSes when face to face. They know instinctively the problem virtually always lies with the betrayer.

After d-day, one feels like they're much less of a person than they were before, but you can bring yourself back if you do the necessary work.

@Sissoon maybe it’s your greater age or wisdom that allows you to disregard the opinions of others in the setting of infidelity and betrayal. Not to hijack this thread, but. When my wife danced away salsa/bachata style with her AP at a work event, left with him hand in hand to the nearby woods to make out and then sped away to the hotel together under the watchful eyes of their coworkers and many of our friends, I found the public humiliation of her betrayal and my implied inadequacy a big part of my injury/betrayal. My wife’s disregard for me and the public nature of the thing was a day to day problem. People would give me their condolences over her behavior afterward, and everybody at her work knew. A lot of my social circle. Impossible to be impervious to public shame and humiliation in this setting.

Our friends here had the same. His wife was public in her betrayal, making him the but of jokes and derision. It’s worse, in my opinion than her physical act of betrayal.

[This message edited by Brittn at 11:49 AM, Friday, August 23rd]

I try fairly hard in my life to take the opinions of others for what they are worth. It isnt my strongest area of success. Partly because I would like to be respected, and partly because I try to hear and pay attention to what others opinions are. That minimal investment in other peoples words can leave me vulnerable to the cruelty. Caring too much isnt the whole issue.

Theres my opinion, too. It isnt always kind to me. You might say I am my biggest critic. I have to work on that every day. Choosing to neuter the cat, with him unable to understand the reasons why, and my understanding that even if he did understand, he would likely never consent to being castrated. It makes me feel like a betrayer specifically because of my wifes betrayal.

I would have never had a particularly strong emotional response to having a cat neutered before, I would merely understand it to be "laundry to fold". An unpleasant bit of necessity, at most. So I was surprised by how much it upset me. Mundane things are triggers now. Im not used to that, even though some awareness of infidelity has been around for a while.

I guess it means Im grieving, which means Im processing.

Brittn,

Thank you for understanding.

A larger part of my pain does come from the fact that I spent time socializing with my wifes coworkers, who were quite mean to me for reasons they understood and I did not until recently. In addition to cheating on me, my wife chose to expose me to an unfair battle in which I had no concept of who and how much of an enemy I was taking shit from.

She protected them from my anger, and hid the nature about why I was being ridiculed and included to be outcast. Forcing me to conclude that I was a natural object for such treatment by my very nature. I thought I was being made fun of because of something wrong with me, for a long time!

I was bullied in school, and this felt like just more of that. Even more sadly, my wife knew about what happened to me in school while she was condoning and minimizing the way her coworkers treated me! I only hung out with them to support her at her job in the first place.

With everything that I know now, its even more hurtful. But at least I can finally process it for what it was. Im in a better place with the truth to stand on.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 1:21 PM, Friday, August 23rd]

I had started a post where I was going to make a comparable comment as Sisoon made regarding the importance of avoiding/dealing with the most-often misplaced and generally harmful emphasis on emasculation.

I don’t see Sisoon disregarding anything others have shared. I see him offering another way to view things, and IMHO a much healthier and better way to view things. Maybe that’s because I too have the "benefit" of added age (although not the prehistoric levels of Sisoon...) and time since my d-day.

Let me preface the following with this:
There is possibly only ONE constant or given conclusion when dealing with human interactions and behaviors, especially in such complex situations as relationships. That once constant is... there is no firm constant.
Like... I can’t say that all people will cheat, that someone that has had one affair will have another and so on. I can’t say the affair is seldom about the BS, or never about the sex or whatever. What I can say – and state it as my OPINION rather than some solid fact – is that not all people will cheat, that a person that has one affair is more likely to cheat again, that most affairs are about issues in the WS and have little to do about the BS and that sex tends to be a currency or consequence rather than the goal.

I base this on my age, my extended time dealing with MY infidelity-incident and the experience of having shared here for quite some time.

You can read about my experience in my profile. Let’s just say – I didn’t have to imagine anything. I saw the size of OM fast-deflating member, heard the sounds and the grunts and all that. I also discovered that my fiancé had a pattern of finding a new lover when she had that itch. I also had the enjoyable experience of having the OM friends make joking comments about my inadequacies a few weeks later. I get the feelings of emasculation and inadequacies.

I get it! I get it! I get it!
I had plenty of behaviors and triggers that for decades impacted me despite the logical part of my brain telling me that they shouldn’t. I would avoid driving past the apartment complex we lived in, I would avoid the part of town her work was at and so on. I get it... And eventually I dealt with it.

However – I early on decided to refuse to carry them. Refused to feed them.

We place a lot of emphasis here on SI convincing new BS that the infidelity took place for no fault of their own. Your spouse/partner decided to cheat despite you, not because of you. I think – and this can be confirmed about as "absolutely" as all other "absolute" theories on infidelity – that infidelity is usually due to insecurities in the WS. A form of validation.

Validation is fine. It’s normal and even healthy. Like... your client recommends you to someone else. That’s nice. That’s validation. Your boss gives you a bonus – validation. Your kids greet you at the door – validation. You lower your handicap in golf – validation. The look your spouse gives you – validation...
The level of validation needed to click in can be subjective. A 50-buck tip would be a blessing to a server at a cheap restaurant, while a 50 buck annual bonus would cause me work-insecurities. Add a couple of 0’s behind that 50 and now were’ talking...

If you are full of insecurities, you might be reaching out for unhealthy validation. Even the most powerful people might need unhealthy validation – that’s why we have politicians, business-moguls and Hollywood stars having affairs and screwing around. People we think have it all yet are clearly lacking something.
This IMHO applies to most "normal" people that cheat. There is something missing... that "something" usually is something that THEY should be solving using acceptable and available options. Like... if you think your wife isn’t showing you attention the "normal" solution would be to talk about it and work on change. If that doesn’t work... well... it might end in divorce or whatever... but the "correct" or "acceptable" path would never be to cheat.

In may instances the infidelity starts with flirting of some form or another, where the response is confirmation that they still "got it". Whatever "got it" means for them. This then might progress to sex. IMHO great sex is never the reason for the decision to cheat (after all – they don’t have the comparison until they have already crossed the line) but it tends to be the reason why the affair carried on – the constant validation.
I do think there can be a gender-difference. I do think that sometimes we males see the sexual conquest as domination rather than validation on our looks (I’m so powerful that I can dominate this woman and use her body) and women might focus more on their ability to attract. Like I stated: there are few if any absolutes. Is this alleged gender-difference acceptable? Probably not any more than thoughts that others are gloating over us being "cucks" or over the conquest of our partners.

Basically – what I’m getting to is this: Your spouse cheated because of issues within her, not because you weren’t’ pleasing her sexually or she didn’t find you attractive or anything of that nature. They cheated because of faults of their own, and the "solution" to why they cheated can only be found in them. She didn’t cheat to shame you. In fact I doubt you were very much in her mind when she did cheat.

---
So with all that in mind then yes – I do understand a feeling of emasculation. Only... as Sisoon (the old cooter...) suggested: Do the work required to deal with that emotion, and a part of that work is probably realizing you have more compassion out there than you realize.

I do hope that since all of this has happened that you've changed your stance on what monogamy means to you. I recall earlier you had given some limited consent to your wife engaging with other people early on.

5bluedrops

Your pain and struggle is more than just a cheating spouse. It is the abuse and disrespect that you suffered at the hands of the person that was supposed to have loved you.

That will take a long time to deal with and resolve. It’s not easy.

I’ve always been a person that cares a bit too much about the opinion of others. But I can tell you that after my H’s second affair (and age and wisdom) I only care what I think of me.

I try to be fair and honest and respectful. I try to be a good person and community minded. I think of others and try to take the high road.

But I try to avoid drama and negativity as much as possible.

In your case just knowing how your spouse played you against her coworkers would be enough to make me run to the D attorney.

I read through your posts. I did not read all the responses. There’s a lot. I too am a victim of infidelity.

I am sorry that you are in so much pain, but as I read through your posts, I felt that you are spiraling. Throughout the pages, it felt that you were moving towards destroying your marriage. And it read as if you couldn’t help yourself

I understand fully what it is like to be betrayed. I also appreciate that there are some WSs that really do successfully commit to their marriage after infidelity. It Appears to me that while your wife took a very long time to tell you the full truth, I think she got there. is 10 years acceptable to lie. Absolutely not. Not ever, but given the duration, she told you the truth in the end, that still takes bravery.

If you want your marriage to work, you have to decide this (yes or no, both are ok), and you need to turn towards each other and work on trust. It is your job to learn how to trust. It is your wife’s job to earn it. You can work with your wife, so she knows how to earn your trust and keep it. You will never ever be able to forget what happened that’s OK in a sense that it makes you wise. But you do have to get to a point of trust if you want a successful marriage. Marriage counselling will help . I would love to read in a few months time that things are going well. I think you both can get there.

You will be OK. No one deserves to be cheated on, it is a heck of a life gut punch. And it is survivable.

I am so sorry for all of your pain, but I think you could be one of the success stories on this site. If that is what you want.

I wish you the best

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 3:10 AM, Sunday, August 25th]

5Blue,

You wrote some time ago which stuck in my mind, Just then, her phone lit up with texts from K talking about how good she felt and how wet she was.

Do you feel that your sex life with your WW changed after those events and never fully recovered?

I can say that my WW turned me into a sexual plan B after her affair with OM, in other aspects of life I was a plan A for her. I also think my WW was entirely unconscious that this happened, but she never got wet for me after that time.