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SacredSoul,

Going to TJ for a second. I don’t really believe you that sex wasn’t a part of your EA. Sure I believe that you didn’t want to cross that line, and that you didn’t, but I don’t believe there weren’t sexual overtones. That’s what makes it an affair. The conversations wouldn’t have been titillating if there wasn’t an attraction. For sure your EAP wanted more and you must have known, and I’m willing to bet you knew during the A. My WW did the same, and from everything I’ve found out, it was about 5 months of intense EA before the A went physical. Well, before they had sex. It was 3 months or so before physical.

What I mean is, sex is part of every A, even if it stays EA, because the attention/attraction, sexual tension, that’s what makes it cross from friends to Affair.

I know that sexual feelings are part of EAs as defined by Shirley Glass, but I wonder if the 1st 2 requirements are enough for betrayal.

Those characteristics are 1) saying things to EAp that one doesn't say to one's partner, and 2) secrecy.

I'm not certain about this, because I can see doing those things with friends, and I wouldn't call a friendship an A.

Just musing ... but for sure one can betray without sex.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:00 PM, Sunday, March 10th]

Betray without actually having sex, absolutely. But a physical/sexual attraction is always part of any Affair. There maybe a denial of the feelings the APs have for each other, but that spark is what fuels the relationship. It could be something as just being wanted by the other person, but there is still sexual tension.

Same with NGFL’s WW. Sure she was catfished, but there’s no doubt that there was a sexual desire, again if not, why was she planning on meeting up with him? The most dangerous lies, are the one we tell ourselves. "I’m not meeting him for sex, he’s just a good friend it won’t go anywhere" yadda yadda. Affairs are fuled attraction and being wanted.

SacredSoul,
Going to TJ for a second. I don’t really believe you that sex wasn’t a part of your EA. Sure I believe that you didn’t want to cross that line, and that you didn’t, but I don’t believe there weren’t sexual overtones. That’s what makes it an affair. The conversations wouldn’t have been titillating if there wasn’t an attraction. For sure your EAP wanted more and you must have known, and I’m willing to bet you knew during the A. My WW did the same, and from everything I’ve found out, it was about 5 months of intense EA before the A went physical. Well, before they had sex. It was 3 months or so before physical.
What I mean is, sex is part of every A, even if it stays EA, because the attention/attraction, sexual tension, that’s what makes it cross from friends to Affair.

*looks around in confusion*

Of course it was all about sex. I said it was an affair. I said it was all titillating talk, my alliterative way of saying sex talk. Maybe I should have been more plain in my choice of words. What is it, exactly, that you don’t believe?

I knew a few weeks in that AP would be willing to take it physical, even though he was H’s best friend. At that same point, I told my H about the EA. Unbeknownst to me, H had already had two PAs and he thought he’d be off the guilt hook somewhat if he allowed me to progress to a PA with the AP. He even offered a tit for tat: You sleep with him and I get to sleep with someone too. NOPE.

It might have progressed to PA had H not wanted a hall pass, too, but I don’t think so. I was scared. I knew in real time that it would be too dangerous to my marriage. I didn’t really want a PA. I just wanted to feel wanted. Feel the excitement.

I’m trying to figure out why you think you have a gotcha moment. I don’t get it.

To me, a PA involves crossing the physical line. I never touched him. Not a hug. Not even a handshake. If your description of a PA starts at sexual attraction, maybe that’s where we’re not connecting.

I apologize, I was not trying to go for a gotcha moment. I get frustrated when people minimize or outright deny that sex isn’t part of an affair. I may have been projecting, as my WW denied anything about attraction or sex for so long as part of the gaslighting campaign on me. I read your post as sex wasn’t part of your EA, in that there was no sexual attraction or that a PA wasn’t possible, and that it was only conversations but no undertones. And with OPs WW, I don’t believe for a second there’s no sexual connection at all. I know we don’t generalize, but there are gender differences in As. BHs are almost always way more upset about the sexual aspect of an A, be it EA only or both, and BWs usually get more upset over the emotional aspect and have an easier time with "it was just sex" then men. Not always of course, and no means am I downplaying the damage all aspects of an affair cause. I just see many WWs always try and downplay sex of an Affair, and hang on to "it was an emotional experience" because they know bringing sex into it is a bigger deal.

Slight T/J. I have to disagree with the absolutes of this statement:

She’s lying. A three year affair and she was never going to meet him for a PA?

Adults don’t have romantic relationships without the intent of having sex. Every affair, be it EA/online or whatever all have the same potential, sex.

Comeon now HF - As we all know very little in this life is absolute. I was told 100 ways from Sunday on this site there was NO way my WH was not having physical sex with his AP for a year when they worked together everyday after I had caught him on d-day 1 and he took the A underground. They were wrong. After spending a small fortune having his phone forensically recovered I found MANY messages from AP counting how many days it had been since they had indeed had physical sex, begging for it sometimes, blah blah blah - and doing all kinds of shit instead which IMO was more disgusting and far more damaging to my mental well being than plain ole intercourse would have been. In that year between d-day 1 through d-day 2 their A was "everything but" actual physical intercourse. Was there weird nipple pinching, and crotch grabbing in quasi-public places, and a bunch of other bizarre stuff that had some layer of fabric between hands and private place - yep (yeah I know - so f-ing WEIRD). But penis-in-vagina or penis-in-mouth (or the other way around) - nope. Was that any better for me to find out...um, hell no.

There are quite a few people who do the whole online thing and are so deep in the fantasy that while they may fantasize about meeting up in person the reality of that is unlikely at best. There was a poster on here a few years back who discovered her husband who had been bedridden for years who had an online affair with some woman on the other side of the world for something like 10 years and they never met and there really wasn't any way that was ever going to happen. He died having never met his AP.

But really, what does that matter here? I think the point is that the A still happened - the WS believed it was an EA and wanted it to be. Whether they wanted it to be more or wanted to live in a fantasy seems like the splitting of irrelevant hairs. It's still an A - and a long one at that.

Tanner described why, to me, it doesn't matter:

My WW’s most passionate EA was a catfish scammer. She exchanged ILY’s and desperately wanted to meet up. He wanted her to pay for a plane ticket and was always asking for money but she never sent any and he bailed.

IMO this is no different than any other A, she had intent, and was willing to meet. It’s not any less painful other than he wasted about 3 months of her time that she wasn’t pursuing an A with someone else.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 10:17 PM, Sunday, March 10th]

I read your post as sex wasn’t part of your EA, in that there was no sexual attraction or that a PA wasn’t possible, and that it was only conversations but no undertones.

"Titillating" means "sexually exciting", so I was confused when you called me out. I really should speak more plainly, but I also really like words.

Looking back, it was 25% sex talk and 75% me listening to him vent about his recent divorce. His XW was NUTS (like, supervised visitation-nuts) so there's was always something juicy to gossip about. He wanted to vent; I wanted attention; he would change the subject to sex and I would join in to keep the attention going and because it was exciting. When I didn't allow the progression to PA, he dropped me like a hot potato and started a full-blown A with another married neighbor.

My H and I spent a lot of time hanging out in his driveway before the A, drinking and cutting up with him and our friends, and often the talk would turn sexual in mixed company. The lines were blurry from the start. We were all so damn messy back then. We've all had therapy and are still friends today.

I know we don’t generalize, but there are gender differences in As.

I agree. I'll leave it at that so as not to violate the generalization guideline.

As far as I'm concerned, we're all good.

Howdy folks.

Trying to keep my head up. My WS bought a new phone, and changed her number. She is now leaving her phone with me when she goes to bed. I looked at her chrome history only to see she had usernames and passwords to 3 different sleazy hookup sites.
I tried like hell to get into them. I failed with 2 sites, and the 1 that I was able to get into was fruitless. It looked like she tried to create a profile then quit. Things are starting to become clearer. I don`t like it, and I am starting to wonder if the counseling that she has set up is going to be a waste of time? I am sorry, but my values don`t jive with this shit.

Sorry Nice, it really sucks. Yes you can betray without sex. Lying, sneaking, opening doors. As soon as you cross that line you are betraying. But yes I think the excitement of knowing you could have sex with that person will fuel the affair.

My husband had an online affair and they never met (different continents) and I read the messages. I am pretty sure he was being scammed. But I didn’t get to that realisation until my head cleared about a year after finding out.

They never even video chatted as she was ‘shy’. As her limited photos (taken at a distance or blurry) suggest she was attractive why on earth would a single, attractive lady with a good job and no kids want to meet some married loser online? And waste time chatting about soul mates and the Ilys? I imagine she was some scammer in a distant land growing a relationship hoping pay day was coming. Or maybe someone married and lying. I found additional accounts of hers. No family following her just a series of online people with similar weird accounts. So she’s either an antisocial weirdo with no real people as online friends or maybe she is also a liar or she’s a scammer with nothing better to do. These scams are growing in number.

However it makes no difference. My respect for him has diminished. As has how much I love him. Which he knows about. I don’t feel sorry for him, he was happy to get the kibbles. He got maybe 750- 1000 hours of messages and loving feeling in exchange for my love. He thought it was worth the risk.

He now realises it may be a scam. I’m not sure if it makes it better or worse. He was either selling us out for a loser or a scammer. He’s still caused me to have ptsd. He’s still a liar. He still robbed me of 18 months of recovery time and the next few years while I am getting better. That’s time I will never get back. It’s time my kids will never get back.

He still isn’t someone I would have chosen to marry. Too high risk. He put our children’s security at risk. I’ll never forgive that. Initially he was upset he may have been tricked - which I found funny (in a dark humour type of way).

This is all on him. He has issues which he is addressing head on. Just not sure if I can tie myself in a knot to see him as a good husband again - which is sad for him as he is fighting for our marriage now. I’m not so sure it’s worth fighting for. I’m pleasant and I go through the motions but my heart isn’t in it anymore. It’s taken a while to get here. PTSD sucks. I had a breakdown too. The whole situation is very sad because he was my soulmate. I adored him. I knew the bits about himself that he hates and I was okay with them. Now he is far more accepting of himself, he is happy to say how he feels. I’m pleased for him- he’s come a long way. I hope he gets to be who he wants to be , I hope he can be happy and love and respect himself but that doesn’t change what he chose to do to our marriage.

His soulmate was an online scammer/loser who’s was unwilling to show her face - he was right about that, I agree she’s his soulmate.

Did you confront her about those three sites?
Can you see if these are recent registrations or something imported when she set up the new phone?

Did you confront her about those three sites?

I would confront. She's given you her phone in an act of supposed transparency. Confront about the sites. I suspect you've only seen the tip of the iceberg.